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What's With All This Rocker S**T? - Page 5

post #121 of 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post





The Katana that was green silver and black with slight variation in the top sheet for 2 seasons, probably 2009 and perhaps 2010 was flat, not reverse.

 


2010 Katana (which was available in spring-2009) was reverse. 2011 appears to be unchanged except for color. The old ones with the powder channel were flat or had slight tip rocker.

post #122 of 477

How about dropping the word "camber" after the word "flat"?

post #123 of 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluriView Post

 

I'm glad DW is having such a good time




I'm always having a good time! 


It's fun to show people how much fun it can be to throw your misconceptions out the window and just ski something new with an open mind.  You're really not doing yourself any favors by holding fast to the old guard, dude...  You're just shutting yourself out of new experiences and new ways to skin that same cat.

 

Wait a sec...  Have you ever even tried a ski with rocker?  Serious question.   

post #124 of 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Do Work View Post






I'm always having a good time! 


It's fun to show people how much fun it can be to throw your misconceptions out the window and just ski something new with an open mind.  You're really not doing yourself any favors by holding fast to the old guard, dude...  You're just shutting yourself out of new experiences and new ways to skin that same cat.

 

Wait a sec...  Have you ever even tried a ski with rocker?  Serious question.   



now you're gettin' kinda' ugly again, like last year. Why would you guess about a person's skiing without any information to go on? I talk about equiptment and you get  personal in rebuttal. Not cool.

 

There is nothing old guard about me or my skiing.

 

My 'serious' comment to you was regarding the film clip you posted up; like I said, not very fat, not rockered, ski like hell. makes you think.

 

I ski the Sixth Sense Huge 115mm on powder days and it is neutral camber with a flex pattern that reverses very easily without being a soft ski, thus a similar effect, very very fun ski. 

 

I don't want people to follow into your insinuation so just this once I'll refute your characterization. After this, bomb away, I don't really care.

post #125 of 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post




 

 

I ski the Sixth Sense Huge 115mm on powder days and it is neutral camber with a flex pattern that reverses very easily without being a soft ski, thus a similar effect, very very fun ski. 

 



Your Huge Troubles have a flex pattern that reverses very easily?  Like ....

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://cdn.epicski.com/b/b3/265x265px-LS-tweak.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.epicski.com/products/2005-atomic-tweak&h=265&w=265&sz=40&tbnid=06b9OoU3fezXRM:&tbnh=112&tbnw=112&prev=/images%3Fq%3Datomic%2Btweak&zoom=1&q=atomic+tweak&usg=__FnLTpGdkTSOPftQffY68OdsHtoE=&sa=X&ei=kByqTKvgGdX-ngextYziDQ&ved=0CDYQ9QEwCA

 ...other than that, I'm confused as to how a flex pattern can adjust.  It may very well be my lack of understanding about something, but I have no idea what you are talking about.

post #126 of 477


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post





The Katana that was green silver and black with slight variation in the top sheet for 2 seasons, probably 2009 and perhaps 2010 was flat, not reverse. Same as the Sixth Sense Huge or Huge trouble = flat camber, perhaps it could be called neutral camber. Kuro and Goat have a long, shallow, continuous reverse curve shape. So, no, not all three. The Katana was made in those years as more of a charger than the other two models, IMO, thus the flat configuration. If Katana has Volkl's long shallow reverse camber for 2011, I wouldn't know.

 

I'm glad DW is having such a good time, but no, you haven't just caught me in error this time. Keep a sharp look out though, I've no doubt you will soon enough.

It is dumb of me to say what these top pros ride. It varies. My dumb-ness. I do not claim greatness by association. I just check what they are on sometimes.  


FYI late 09 and 2010 Katana are full rockers I own a pair, and I am sure of that.

 

They also might be some of the better crud skis I have ever skied. The metal and rocker just make it spear though shitty conditions like nothing else have been on.

post #127 of 477


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by guroo270


Your Huge Troubles have a flex pattern that reverses very easily?

 ...other than that, I'm confused as to how a flex pattern can adjust.  It may very well be my lack of understanding about something, but I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

I assume what davluri means is that the HTs will bend for him very easily so that their shape, when pressured, is rockered. This is not a ski with an adjusting flex pattern but rather a ski that will flex.
 

post #128 of 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post



now you're gettin' kinda' ugly again, like last year. Why would you guess about a person's skiing without any information to go on? I talk about equiptment and you get  personal in rebuttal. Not cool.

 

There is nothing old guard about me or my skiing.

 

My 'serious' comment to you was regarding the film clip you posted up; like I said, not very fat, not rockered, ski like hell. makes you think.

 

I ski the Sixth Sense Huge 115mm on powder days and it is neutral camber with a flex pattern that reverses very easily without being a soft ski, thus a similar effect, very very fun ski. 

 

I don't want people to follow into your insinuation so just this once I'll refute your characterization. After this, bomb away, I don't really care.



I'm always ugly.  No fixin' that!  

 

Not sure where you saw me guessing about your skiing...  Just poking fun at your insistince that rocker is the devil, and exclusively for cheaters trying to buy a turn, which I don't believe it is.  I''m sure you're a very capable skier, and never sought to take anything away from you in terms of skill in the hill.  Sorry if it came across as that. 

 

The "serious" post you made wasn't intended to be about rocker, nor was it even in this thread.  It was in response to another "Old Guard" skier asking why someone would ever want to use fatties because they thought you couldn't ski "in" the pow (which you ski 6th sense huges, so wtf?)...  So once again, you're so fired up to prove your point, you're reaching all over and realy just whipping yourself into a frenzy over nothing.

 

Also you never answered my question- have you ever skied a ski with rocker?  It's a very pertinent question for the discussion at hand and I don't feel it was a question made with malice either. 

 

  

post #129 of 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by TallSkinnyGuy View Post


 

 

I assume what davluri means is that the HTs will bend for him very easily so that their shape, when pressured, is rockered. This is not a ski with an adjusting flex pattern but rather a ski that will flex.
 



 Yeah, that's the only way that can make sense to me too.  Does that mean that Davluri really does love rocker, and he's just lying to himself?  hmmmm...

post #130 of 477

Speaking of camber and flex and all that, Does anybody else want to see what would happen if Atomic's D2 tech was brought to bigger deep-snow skis?

post #131 of 477

Not so much. My impression is that D2 is solving a problem that just does not matter that much under "normal" conditions with modern design skis. At least for "normal" in the places I ski. Sort of  like bringing Anton technology to well designed rockered skis - I just do not particularly see enough likely benefit to matter. (although I admit I have skied neither D2 nor Antons)

post #132 of 477

It lets you have two flexes. You could have a ski that decambers really easily for float in pow, but then gets stiff to kill crud. I'd like to try it if I had the chance. The D2 GS skis I tried last year were amazing, btw.

post #133 of 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by guroo270 View Post





 Yeah, that's the only way that can make sense to me too.  Does that mean that Davluri really does love rocker, and he's just lying to himself?  hmmmm...



DL really does love rocker. Self deception has gotten me into deep s#&t lately; you pinned that one. Just because it spins out this way here doesn't mean I've been on any crusdade against rocker or defended any reactionary attitude toward tech advancement.

 

I don't know what to say about the flex, certainly not adjustable. It smears and slarves in any soft snow; it is clearly designed to do so. The flex is tweaked partly by using a sidewall for the main body of the ski and a cap in the tips and tails. Dynastar just quietly does some interesting things, against the current even, but subtle. first pintail, for example, and sidewall cap combinations.

post #134 of 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

It lets you have two flexes. You could have a ski that decambers really easily for float in pow, but then gets stiff to kill crud. I'd like to try it if I had the chance. The D2 GS skis I tried last year were amazing, btw.



I agree with this 100% and was instantly intrigued when someone explained to me what the heck a doubledecker was and how it worked...  Really cool concept! 

post #135 of 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Do Work View Post





I agree with this 100% and was instantly intrigued when someone explained to me what the heck a doubledecker was and how it worked...  Really cool concept! 



How about a ski that's made like a bimetallic strip, like in a thermostat, that bends up around the edges when in contact with powder (maybe powder is "warmer" than ice), and lays flat when the snow is packed?  So you have a gotama in the morning, and an mx88 in the afternoon.  Maybe the worst idea of all time, maybe the best, not sure yet.  

Flame away.

post #136 of 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

Speaking of camber and flex and all that, Does anybody else want to see what would happen if Atomic's D2 tech was brought to bigger deep-snow skis?



I have to ask, what is Atomic's D2 and what does that tech do?

 

I'd like to be the fly on the wall when the different ski engineers are talking about new powder concepts. shape, flex, dampening.

 

One of my favorite powder skis was so damp it felt dead after riding the Stocklis and the B-Squad back to back.  I haven't heard the term rebound very much for a while now, except maybe in the park. Is rebound or liveliness a desireable characteristic on a deep powder combined crud ski, or do you want the ski to neutralize the movement as much as possible, and are any of the current rockers or hybrids intentionally dampened?

 

(I don't much care what develops for hard snow skiing as I'm pretty satisfies with whats out there)

post #137 of 477



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post


 


FYI late 09 and 2010 Katana are full rockers I own a pair, and I am sure of that.

 

They also might be some of the better crud skis I have ever skied. The metal and rocker just make it spear though shitty conditions like nothing else have been on.



It brings up this then. when one ski has a minuscule degree of reverse camber and another is flat with an early rise tip, we are not talking about categorically different behaving skis. They are very similar. I think you need the term flat camber because a flat ski is simply the lesser amount in a continuum of amounts of camber. make sense?

 

BW, I have heard that the Katana is a great crud and charger type ski from people who ride it. That's why I mentioned it as the charger of the lineup with Kuro, Gotama, and Chopstick being lighter skis. I'll defer on what years they changed the Katana to early rise or rocker. Just saying, at one point it had neutral camber at 110mm and was very popular.

 

. Back in the day there was always the standing of the skis base to base to look at the camber.

post #138 of 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post


I have to ask, what is Atomic's D2 and what does that tech do?

 



D2 stands for double deck. Here's a picture of the GS ski.

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS96se2UG5bJE_CXtDWue5RSHoDeDRXZSupuw5AI_90UGX5NGM&t=1&usg=__CrsysOewe1TxUEDxEIvtkUpKZt0=

The black part is the upper deck and is made of carbon fiber. It is attached to the lower deck (traditional ski) under the binding, and also by those little silver things. The silver things can freely slide in the slots allowing for soft flex, but when they get to the end of the slots, the flex of the ski stiffens. The GS ski I rode hugged the ground and rode over ripples like nothing I've ever skied, but also had endless power.

post #139 of 477

interesting, they can take a ski, see what it lacks, and design corrections into the upper deck. or add capability in the upper deck. Atomic has done a lot with carbon fiber, I rode a Beta carbon ski about 10 years ago.

post #140 of 477



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post





D2 stands for double deck. Here's a picture of the GS ski.

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS96se2UG5bJE_CXtDWue5RSHoDeDRXZSupuw5AI_90UGX5NGM&t=1&usg=__CrsysOewe1TxUEDxEIvtkUpKZt0=

The black part is the upper deck and is made of carbon fiber. It is attached to the lower deck (traditional ski) under the binding, and also by those little silver things. The silver things can freely slide in the slots allowing for soft flex, but when they get to the end of the slots, the flex of the ski stiffens. The GS ski I rode hugged the ground and rode over ripples like nothing I've ever skied, but also had endless power.

 

Isn't the D2 a longer application of freefloating plates?

 



 

post #141 of 477

so, a dual flex ski. interesting. seems they could spring load a ski into rockered camber as one of the settings on a fat ski.

post #142 of 477

I don't remember whether Rossi released it or not - but they built a version of the Squad that was like that. Big cable system. The issue is that adding rocker intelligently is usually not the same as just bending your old shape.

 

Even assuming they add something to the conventional ski discussion, things like D2 and the Anton glider system seem to me to offer  diminishing returns relative to the basic integration of rocker in newer designs. There seems a ton of headroom left in in the design space without getting too fancy with gizmos. And in derivative approaches that rocker might enable as well.

 

post #143 of 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

Speaking of camber and flex and all that, Does anybody else want to see what would happen if Atomic's D2 tech was brought to bigger deep-snow skis?



You know already I'd be all over that.    I'm not ready to throw away Variocut either.

post #144 of 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post

Even assuming they add something to the conventional ski discussion, things like D2 and the Anton glider system seem to me to offer  diminishing returns relative to the basic integration of rocker in newer designs.



I might agree with you, but only for the very special case of skiers with established skills buying upper level skis.     

 

I think D2 + Anton glider can give rocker a way to down-trickle to beginners and 1-2 weeks/year on-piste intermediates as a 1SQ.

post #145 of 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post

I don't remember whether Rossi released it or not - but they built a version of the Squad that was like that. Big cable system.


What that cable did would be the opposite of what the D2 does.

post #146 of 477

Yeah - but I was pointing out that the notion of a ski that could be flipped from camber to reverse had been explored...

 

post #147 of 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post

Yeah - but I was pointing out that the notion of a ski that could be flipped from camber to reverse had been explored...

 



They even did it on a pisteish womens' Euro model, IIRC.

post #148 of 477

Rocker is here to stay, no matter what some might think, even for harpack skis.

 

If we take a look at "narrow" skis with full rocker like Hendryx 917 (one of the better skis for groomers I've ever tried and it has 97mm UF and a lot of rocker) and Völkl Gotama. They can make them stiffer without making them hard to ski because you don't need to push through the camber = faster turn initiation. Once on edge the whole sidecut will be engaged, especially when sidecut/rocker has the same radius. Simply put, you don't have to choose between a good groomer ski or good freeride ski anymore.

 

n519108052_1478050_2395.jpg

Hendryx Funkalistic a 110 under foot, flat camber, rocker.

cbe8332d135e198cd7e3e49a0b2a31f7.jpg

My P4's that has rocker due to flat landings

 

Hendryx Cash is King, 127 under foot, reverse camber, flat under foot

 

 

And even GS, SG and DH skis now have small amounts of tiprocker, well some people on a high competing level (WC, EC) are riding it and a lot are trying different rockers out before making final ski.

 

I toured (and skied) on Moment NT's all season, no problem. Ok, there are better skis to tour on if it's harpack (non 3D-snow) but usually I don't tour to ski crappy snow.

 

Sure a rockered ski helps a not so good skier to ski lines he or she probably could'nt ski on cambered skis. But skiers with good technique are always going to be better the ones without it.

 

Damn those young whippersnappers and their rockers wink.gif

post #149 of 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarle View Post




Hendryx Cash is King, 127 under foot, reverse camber, flat under foot

 


Not trying to be horribly argumentative here, jarle, but it would be very interesting to see some footage of that same skier doing another run on a more conventional hard-snow ski.  To my eye, he's hooking up the beginning part of the turn very well but he also appears to be having a somewhat difficult time right at the completion phase of many of his turns (particularly on his turns to the right). 

 

My very uneducated guess would be that the tails are washing out on him a little. 

 

That said, he's a helluva skier and it looks like he's having lots of fun. 

post #150 of 477

I would enjoy seeing video that is not on a blue run, if we are talking about a skis's ability to hold an edge. Yes, a green run. No, but at least 35 degrees ave with some steeper also.

Lets face it, on a blue run any ski can do any thing, so nothing is demonstrated.

Thanks for the clip, though, I know you're sharing for the fun of it.

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