or Connect
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Marketing: Advanced class - Page 3

post #61 of 94
Thread Starter 

You think scuba and skiing are comparable sports experiences? I don't scuba, but don't all divers have to be certified? This makes PADI (Professional Association of Diving Instructors) one of the largest member organizations in the world.

We are on the lookout for an analogous beast to snow sports: it does not appear to be golf, as much as we instructors would love to have the respect and appeal of the PGA, and it does not appear to be scuba, as much as we instructors would love to have the same hold on the public as PADI.

Any nominations?
post #62 of 94
Nolo, your understanding is not correct. It is possible to perform an "introductory" or "resort" dive without any prior certification. For safety they are conducted under the supervision of an experienced instructor diver(s). There is no limit to the number of times you may do "resort" dives (I should add this is the position in Australia, it may be different in other parts of the world).

However many people would like to go beyond the serious limitations of these types of dives, which is when they need to become certified by way of a course. I, for one, have done such a dive and enjoyed it immensely. However I did not come away from the experience with any particular desire to take up scuba diving as a sport. Instead, for me, it was something I did as part of a holiday experience. Furthermore, had I been required to conduct a course prior to the dive I probably would not have done it. Based on many people I have met who did continue with the course, again it was part of the holiday experience. Some people were from Europe and probably have no intentions of diving again, yet they are, in simple statistical terms, “divers” as defined by the various organisations.

I see strong parallels between my experience with diving and possibly that of many people who visit the ski fields. They are quite happy with the experience however feel no urge to improve (akin to taking a PADI course).
post #63 of 94
Thread Starter 
Apparently it depends on the resort, Pete. There are many that require certification.

See: http://www.padi.com/courses/rec/sd.asp
post #64 of 94
Then there's Italy..my brother and his mate turned up to some place near Naples and were able to hire tanks and the whole schebang, neither had ever been diving before! Moreover, me and my mother are asthmatic and brother could well have it in the mild form. Didn't matter.
They went and had a look at some of the wrecks in the sea just off the shore.
post #65 of 94
I agree with Pete. I have been a certified diver for almost 20 years. The situational contrast between the ski holiday and the scuba holiday are very similar! The environments are comparable and the expense of the "sport" is somewhat comparable. Rentals are about the same, instruction is cheaper, but then you get to pay for the boat to take you out to the dive areas. But then there are the physical limitations- you can only get in so much bottom time per dive, before the technical conditions begin to get more involved. Very similar to challenging ones self to more difficult terrain.

At most beach resorts, a "recreational" syllabus is available to those not wanting serious diving, or for those just wanting a taste of the experience. That's how I was bitten by the scuba bug (along with a few friends and an ex- wife).

Generally, a "cert card" is required to rent equipment, as a liability cover for the rental shops.

But from the holiday standpoint, I think it's a reasonably close parallel. People go to beach resorts to relax, and then look for activities to participate in. Most have already heard of scuba diving, and think, hey- let's give it a try. From a physical stand point, beginning divers find it very easy. You breathe, you kick your feet, you keep your eyes open. EASY.

But to a beginner- it has many similar emotional challenges. Being under water challenges the psyche about the fear of drowning (compared to fear of heights or just being injured). Some get claustrophobic wearing the gear and the mask (sound similar to our gear?). To some, it's the fear of the unknown, the animals, etc.

But most of the fears are pre-conditioned by friends, TV, or movies. Can you remember "JAWS"? It did more to hurt the diving industry than anything else! Maybe in some cases, the current crop of ski movies out there do the same thing to our potential guests.

But the bottom line, IMHO, is that people want to have a vacation experience, with minimal physical effort, with maximal sensory inputs. To some, that's lying on a beach. To some of us, it's busting our butts for 6-7 days of all out Heli-skiing. It's the "lying on the beach/ cruise liner" set that we must reach.

The great question- "How do we encourage them to get off their butts, and doing something truly exhilarating?"

post #66 of 94
Thread Starter 

I rest my case on the "cert card" needed to rent equipment. If a "cert card" was needed to ride a chair lift, then I'd say BINGO, but that seems to me to be a critical difference.

To your big question:

Why do we have to reach the set that gravitates to rich food, tropical drinks, and reclining on chaises in the salt sea air?

Would it not make more sense to focus our efforts where there's more likelihood of success? It seems a simple foraging problem to me. Go where the food is.
post #67 of 94
Naturally PADI will want you to do a PADI course! It is an introduction "course", much the same as we got before I did my dive. Obviously the Americans are much more concerned about being sued so it may go for a bit longer there, but it's not the "full" course you need to do to become certified.


These are NOT certification courses, they are very basic safety "courses" before you dive WITH an instructor.

The full course, to become certified, is typically 5 days long.

However I don't mean to drag this off topic as this is not Epicdive.com It was meant to be an example to illustrate a point.
post #68 of 94
OK, you convinced me! I quit! No more of that sucky, cold sport! From now on , I'll just hang out in my new career in aviation. Let the poor sods who can't buy a turn with a handful of hundreds suffer by themselves. Too bad for them.....

JUST JOKING EVERYBODY!!!!! Oh- you meant for us to forage for different students?

Yes, I am leaving the ski industry for a full time flying job, but I will continue to teach part time. But I will never give up the faith, in the perfect turn, the great people I have (and will continue to) work with, and the incredible feeling of flying without a plane.

By the way, NB- you really should try diving! It'll blow your mind! (Or flying a plane , if you've never done that either.)

: : :
post #69 of 94
There are major differences between skiing and diving.
Not being trained and certified as a skier will not generally put you in life and death situation. Dangerous and injuries yes. but almost certain death if a mistake is made? probably not.

When diving if you make a mistake at 30 ft. Injury(life threating) is very likely. Make a mistake at 60 and death is a very strong possiblity. We as air breathing animals are totally out of our element in the water and SCUBA (Self Contained Underwater Breathing Apparatus) is a very "gear intensive" sport. You better know how the gear works before you go in the water. This is the reason you must "dive with a specially trained" instructor even in "discovery or resort" dives.

I don't disagree with the earlier comments and parallel's but the c-card issue is very important.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.
post #70 of 94
I rest my case on the "cert card" needed to rent equipment.
Nolo I beg your pardon! You rest your case! YOU REST YOUR CASE? You are joking aren't you!! WHERE did you mention that certification was required to rent equipment?

I don't scuba, but don't all divers have to be certified? There are many that require certification.
Again, NO certification is required to do a resort dive. That obviously includes renting the equipment as part of the package. Certification IS required if you want to just roll up to the dive shop, rent some equipment and wander off by yourself or more technically complex dives. To draw a parallel to skiing it might be that you would not need to be certified to ski under the supervision of an instructor on moderate slopes, but once you wanted to go off skiing by yourself or with friends you would need to do a course.

While those who actually have some experience in this area seem to have no difficulty understanding my analogy, I now wish I had never broached the subject.

VSP, while my BP settles to a more realistic level, good post. That's pretty much how I see it too. I went in as somebody who actually almost did the cert. course many, many years ago, so certainly had an interest. However when I actually made the dive I really had no interest in other that experiencing what it was like, ticking the box, and enjoying myself. I also agree with the psychological parallels between the two sports. Perhaps if I had been offered some incentive to continue with the certification at the end of the dive I may have considered it. Dunno. This is marketing 101. Entice somebody to use your product/service, impress them, convert them. Easy peasy, well easy to say anyway.
post #71 of 94
VSP you're going flying full-time? Nooooo don't do it! Only joking Good luck with it. Yes it's a lot of fun isn't it.


post #72 of 94
On the topic of cert and rentals, If you think you can get around the cert for scuba by purchasing your equipment, you need the c-card for getting air fills too.

To make the analogy fit for skiing, maybe need a c-card to access certain chairs or runs? or to purchase specific types of gear :
post #73 of 94
Thread Starter 

Sorry about the BP, but I think it's misdirected.

Generally, a "cert card" is required to rent equipment, as a liability cover for the rental shops.

VSP, while my BP settles to a more realistic level, good post

post #74 of 94
Dchan, Yeah that's right. That seems a fair analogy. However let's not get too distracted by the analogy, the point was that it's a similar holiday experience to many people. Some people want to continue with certification, some people are just happy to do the resort dive(s). Some people want to get better at skiing, others are just happy to potter about the mountain. Sometimes I think enthusiasts such as ourselves forget the latter group, yet I believe they are the largest market for schools to target.

Nolo, for the last time. THE CERTIFICATE IS NOT REQUIRED FOR A RESORT DIVE, THIS INCLUDES THE RENTAL OF THE EQUIPMENT TO DO SUCH A DIVE. To be found incorrect in an argument and to twist things around to reply with "I rest my case" can only be described as the extreme of arrogance.

[ May 16, 2002, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: Pete ]
post #75 of 94
A lot of my first timers were horrified by how much work they had to do - physical work. I likened it to football training. The image they'd been given didn't mention anything about physical exertion! They were quite shocked.
post #76 of 94
Thread Starter 
Okay, Pete. There are resorts where one may be introduced to scuba diving without possession of a card.

Frankly, at this point, I do not remotely care about any parallels or lack thereof between scuba and skiing.

Skiing is unique. Let's leave it at that.

[ May 16, 2002, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: nolo ]
post #77 of 94
Ant, yes now you mention it I have heard the same comments from some very new skiers, and lets face it, sidestepping etc. up a slope on some planks that seem to have a mind of their own is really quite hard work, particularly since I’ve found never-evers seem to terribly over-dress and get quite hot in the process.

You provide an interesting angle. Do you think this may dissuade some people from continuing with the sport? I mean, if they think this is “skiing” then it’s far too much like hard work? If so, could it be that indicating to them that once over this first “hurdle” skiing becomes much more enjoyable and less work? Which completes the loop back to the schools, whereby they could promote themselves as being able to accelerate the students through the initial stages faster, hence lead to greater enjoyment.

Nolo, your apology is accepted, cripes I'm glad we have that finalised [img]smile.gif[/img] Ergh, that apology didn't last long before you edited it out. While you may not care to look for parallels between skiing and other sports, perhaps other may. Contrary to what you suggest I personally do not believe skiing is unique in many areas, and it seems others share my views. In marketing valuable lessons can be learnt by looking at other areas and how marketers in that area tackle the marketing problem.

[ May 16, 2002, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: Pete ]
post #78 of 94
I would draw closer similarity to skiing and free air dives.
No certs.
Available and accessable, you need to go to the "area" and there are good ones and notso good ones.
Any age and ability can particpate
Not too "unnatural"
Great exercise
Someone needs to show you the basics, like equalize,mask purge and blowing your snorkel.
You can scare yourself silly!
You can die.

Scuba is more like technical climbing.

post #79 of 94
Thread Starter 

That apology was rescinded in favor of a "cry uncle" message, which was more to the point.

I am interested in exploring all analogies, models, and parallels between skiing and X, except when X=scuba, as it seems to result in a circular conversation.

I'd like to test the hypothesis that skiing is basic, like a primary color, not a composite, like a hue.

For instance, I would call snowmobiling and snowboarding hues of skiing. The snowmobile is a composite: the engine derives from boating; the treads come from crawling conveyances such as the Caterpillar or the tank; the handlebars and throttle from a motorcycle (which descends from a bicycle); and lastly, the skis.

The snowboard's design inspiration was to combine skis with a skateboard.

Put skiing and boating together and you get 1) water skiing and 2) the jet-ski.

Across the color wheel from skiing is in-line skating. Cross-training. Across the color wheel from the snowmobile is the ATV. They are seasonal complements, also called cross training.

If you want to travel in snow, you need skis or some variation thereof. The distinction from that point seems to be whether the skis are human-powered or powered by an outside source.

This is the family of sports to which skiing belongs. The interesting thing about this analogy is the idea of complementary sports--those that a skier tends to favor when there is no snow.

What is the order underlying all the above? Is it not travel? We do these sports to enhance our ability to get somewhere. The pull is Dr. Seuss: Oh the places you'll go! It's a very powerful motivator.

If you do not like my color wheel analogy, that's cool. Analogies are mental maps that tend to make the most sense to the person who drew the map. I share my analogy in the hope that it strikes a chord with someone else participating in the conversation.

I'd go so far as to mix metaphors, and say:

Skis are to snow as wheels are to land.

[ May 17, 2002, 08:36 AM: Message edited by: nolo ]
post #80 of 94
Nolo, oh please!

CalG, again it seems as if people are getting too focused on the specifics of comparing a sport per se (and in some cases arguing pedantic details), without seeing the message that was contained within. The point I was making was that people go on holiday and seek an experience. They may participate in a sport as an experience but that doesn’t necessarily mean they are interested in the sport as such, it is merely an experience.
post #81 of 94
Nolo, with all due respect, YOU ARE THINKING TOO MUCH!!!!!!

Analysis Paralysis!!!!

Please go ask the folks at the Skiing Magazine forum what they thought about their last ski lesson. Get your hands dirty with the people who actually take lessons.
post #82 of 94
Originally posted by ant:
A lot of my first timers were horrified by how much work they had to do - physical work. I likened it to football training. The image they'd been given didn't mention anything about physical exertion! They were quite shocked.
Now that's funny, because aside from the shlepping through icy parking lots, I have always been shocked at how LITTLE exertion is required for skiing correctly, and have been admonished by one of our own Bears to "quit skiing like a foootball player".

Most of my colleagues who do any sort of winter sport are into cross country skiing, because "its a better aerobic workout". I've even heard some embarassingly stupid comments comparing the Olympic teams. "The cross country skiers have better bodies than the downhillers". DUH!

My motivation for getting better at skiing was never about skiing the most frightening trails on the mountain. Perhaps this is due to the fact that I am not an office drone, and my lifestyle affords me a considerable amount of endorphins on a daily basis.

But the "Oh the Places you'll see" stuff. YEAH BABY!!! That was what got me off the bunny slopes!
post #83 of 94
Thread Starter 
I thought we were trying to figure out which sports are like skiing. Skiing is a very old form of transportation that enabled people to get out in the mountains in the wintertime. It still does.

It is like all the other ways people get out in the mountains in the wintertime, and the ways that people get out there in the other seasons too.

It is also like the land and water sports that share the characteristics of speed, finesse, and using natural forces--like sailing and biking.

It's not surprising that you and VSP love both skiing and flying. They are a lot alike.

I can tell you this. The people who are core enthusiasts also like to ride bikes, sail, play tennis and golf, enjoy travel, and fine wines.

Why not look for new skiers in those groups? At least they would be less likely to complain about how strenuous the sport is. Also, it would seem easier for someone with transferable skills like these.
post #84 of 94
Thread Starter 
Help me out, WTG. I looked at the forums at both Skiing and SKI. There's very little activity on either one, and except for one intriguing X-rated title, I didn't see anything that would get my hands dirty.

Don't tell me I have to go to Powder. Oh--Paula's Ski Lover's? Right.
post #85 of 94
If you really want to find out about the customer, you need to talk to them, face to face.

post #86 of 94
"love both skiing and flying"
Did somebody say flying? This is flying!

post #87 of 94
Yeah, I'd like a link to that mag forum too, I love to hear what people say about lessons...the ones on the Oz forum (www.ski.com.au) were on a thread talking about when kids should get poles! It's a real window into peoples' thinking...it's invaluable, because you see the misconceptions and perceptions, and that's vital.

Don't want to go to Paula's Ski Lovers!
post #88 of 94
Oooooooh, I'm sorry Nolo! I should have checked before mentioning them. I found them all back in January and they were okay then. The problem was that the activity levels were just mediocre (which equals boring). The discussions were pretty basic, and that's why I thought they'd be a decent resource for you. Unfortunately, once I found Epic Ski, I never went back. Should've checked!
post #89 of 94
Thread Starter 
I surfed around, went to a place recommended at Peter Keelty's site called Blarp, with latest posts in 2000. It does seem like epic is the place with the most active community.
post #90 of 94
I found Skiing Mag's site and yeah, it was empty. Epic is the most active (aside from rec.skiing.alpine but it's a tad rough!).

Blarp, I know the guy who runs that, and it is quite active, there's definitely stuff since 2000. I'll try find the forums. (goes off).

(Comes back)
OK, http://forums.blarp.com/~sports/guests is the guest read-only bit of the forums.
Click on "skiing", then look to the bottom of the list of topics, and click "bottom" (how rude!) and that'll take you to the most recent discussions. Plenty from 2002.

You probably get more functionality if you register properly though.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching