|Originally posted by John Dowling:
...And it's not responsive to the original question, "why is banking bad?"..
You are absolutely correct that I elected not to answer that particular question he posed. I thought it would be better to respond first to his other question, "Can one be banking and angulating at the same time?", and make him aware that he stumbled into a situation where there is such a serious clash of definitions that seemingly opposite answers might be given to him.
Specifically, the reason I didn't answer his "Why is banking bad" question was that I felt he was clearly using the term "bank" in the common, colloquial way, meaning “Center-of-mass leaning”. Thus, his question really was, "is CM leaning generally bad", and the answer is obviously, “no”. OTOH, most instructors define “bank” as described below, and instead, will really be answering the question, "Is CM leaning without any angulation
bad?", and hence, they will give the answer which you gave.
I would contend that the proper answer to his question (in the way I think he really meant it) is that, of course, CM leaning is not bad. It is something we do all the time at high speeds, except that on packed surfaces, to minimize skidding, we always add angulation while in an overall CM-leaned-over position.> This is a new one on me. It's certainly not among the "most used approaches..."
In the paragraph you quoted, all I was trying to do was describe the typical shape of a racer going around a gate without using even a single one of the words, "banking", "angulation", or "inclination", whose common usages I find to be lacking, yet deeply entrenched. (Actually, I don’t have gripes about the definition of “angulation”, only the other two words, but decided to avoid using any of them.)
The sentence under discussion was: "Yes, you most certainly can combine a non-zero CM lean angle with extra edge angle obtained by contorting your body." There are two critical phrases in this sentence.
The first critical phrase is, "...you most certainly can combine a non-zero CM lean angle...". I don't think you can possibly argue that for the above hypothetical racer, the line between their outside edge and CM is off-vertical. That's all this part of the sentence is saying.
The second critical phrase in the sentence said, "...with the extra edge angle obtained by contorting your body...". Here, I hoped it was obvious that I was referring a couple of paragraphs above where I said, "...the banana (or C) shaped contortions of one's body commonly known as 'angulation'..". So, all this phrase is saying is that the above hypothetical racer is using angulation.
I feel that putting the two parts of the sentence together does indeed describe the usual body position of racers, and does so without using the words that I think are confusing to people not in the business. Unfortunately, it seems like my attempt to avoid the questionable terms produced something no less murky than what I am objecting to. Sorry.
I agree wholeheartedly about trying not to start up the old debate again, and would *really* be happy to agree to disagree. However, "Maxilovesthepow" asked a very specific question about whether one should combine banking and angulation in "good" skiing. Just asking the question this way gets right to the heart of the underlying definitional issue, so, unfortunately, I think this problem has to be at least momentarily touched on in order to help the guy out.
IMHO, his question clearly demonstrates that many ordinary folks (myself included) think of banking as any form of CM leaning (ie, with or without angulation), so its quite reasonable for them to ask could the two be combined. In other words, he is really wondering "Should I 'CM-lean' and angulate?", but instead, used the colloquial and widespread meaning of the word "bank", and instead, phrased his question as, "Can I bank and angulate".
Well, unfortunately, the standard usage by ski instructors is that banking is by definition "CM lean without angulation", so under this definition, its not even logically possible to ask if they can be combined. IMHO, the instructor’s definition of “bank” totally confuses most non-instructors, and that's why I attempted to answer this question of his without using any of the three words under question.
Tom / PM
PS#1 - BTW, when I mentioned that I was on the same side of this debate as a race coach, I hope it was clear that I was referring to Fastman (from Fla), not "Ski Coach" (Greg – originally from the USSR, now at Ski Liberty). I forgot that Greg was also a participant in the old thread.
PS#2 – Cedric and Fox ->
PS#3 - Sorry about the length.