Direct to Parallel or Wedge....where, when, why?

I think DTP rushes folks past some the the important basics.

 

A healthy and fit athletic individual can learn to wedge and begin proper parallel movements in the same day-long lesson while developing a better feel for some of dynamics that aid advanced skiing.

 

I see a lot of DTP students ending up with rotation to a skid as their principal turn.

 

Of course, poorly coached wedgers do the same.

I taught PMTS for four years at SolVista. My success rate was 90%, ie, students that could ski from the top of the hill. That run was a green and I was filling in the bits, like sideslip little pitches. The skiers were skiing a rough parallel all the way. So DTP or PMTS leaving out important bits is the instructor's option. As for rotation and skidding, I spent 2 hours on keeping the upper body quiet and lightening the inside ski to turn and riding the outside ski. If the student is doing shuffleing turns, upper body rotation is not an option.

 

Rick H

I think this pretty much sums it up.  A good instructor is a good instructor....likewise a bad one, is a bad one.  Doesnt have all lot to do with the method really.

 

To prove this point and this was years ago...we had some of the top pros teach the classic skills progression using a wedge, along side the rest of the entire ski school doing DTP...to see who could get their skiers skiing parallel down this particular green run from top to bottom first in control.   The top guys using the wedge to start won.  Not only were they first, but their students also had the most control style and dare I say also appeared to be having the most fun.

 

We then had the same pros use DTP and we had the same game....they won again.

 

It is all about teaching skills.  You can teach skills in a wedge, or parallel, on snow...or downunder on bad snowyears you even learn to do it on the grass.....

 

 

 

To answer the question directley thou:  Use the wedge whenever, for whatever reason, the student needs more speed control then they are able to generate by just turning.

I agree with skidude.  It's not the system; it's the teacher.  Even the pre-gliding wedge methodology works if done right.  It worked pretty well for Podborski.

 

This seems one them...

 

Just a point (question?)....you seem to suggest DTP is based on turns happening by some different mechanism to wedging.  This is not true.  Both require edges, if no edges, no friction, and you will just follow the fall line. 

 

Proper wedge progession, like proper DTP is based off of generating a steering angle via ILS.  Identical.  One (the wedge) just has an extra slowing component.

 

Other forms of the wedge technique such as "push on the left leg to go right, and the right leg to go left", work off of using the steering angle inherint in the wedge, then just make one side dominate to turn, but it still relies also on the inherent edge angles created by displacing our feet to the side in a wedge.  The other option of course is the PMTS BS method where you can generate a steering angle buy just "arcing" your skis...of course this works...but on day 1?  I have yet to see it. 
 

The dude has it right here. A well thought out dtp or wedge progression will focus on actions of the left foot/leg to go left and actions of the right foot/leg to go right. The difference is the platform the student is standing on. The wedge provides a stabler platform which helps the confidence level of many first timers.

 

The wedge also is more versatile when it come to the terrain you have to work with. The lack of super gentle terrain at many western resorts makes using a dtp problematic. The steeper the terrain you have to work with the more you can use the breaking action of the wedge to to keep the students confidence high. Or if you work at someplace like Boston Mills/Brandywine and have a hundred buses in the parking lot and three acres of beginner area a wedge progression lets you fit them all on your hill.

 

fom

If I have understood it correclty the whole ide with DTP is that you dont have to learn a wedge. Therefore the mechanism cannot be the same. And they are not. In a wedge the skis are set at an skid-angle. In a parallel turn you need to establishe the skid angle at transition and edge change. Except if you are using the PMTS BS method. It builds on ILS. They call it the Pantome Move.

Thanks for calling PMTS  Brilliant Skiing, but I think Weems has a prior claim to that phrase.  So please refer to it simply as PMTS.

What mechanism are you refering to?

 

 

Yes you need to establish the "steering" angle via ILS in DTP...no question.  But the modern way of teaching a wedge progession does the same thing...the "wedge" is just used for speed control, not turning.  Turning in the wedge progresson also comes from ILS.

 

In your push left to go right method however it is quiet different, in your method you use the wedge to establish the steering angle....hence ILS is not needed, or thus taught.

 

 

Edited by Skidude72 - 11/13/10 at 2:18am

Can you provide video of how to make a parallel turn using ILS?

A gliding wedge not only offers extra speed control, it also offers enhanced lateral balance control through a wider base of support. Which I think allows earlier success to many who need this initially. You can teach the same modern movements whether the student is in a gliding wedge or parallel posture, just as you can teach edging movements as you teach steering on a flatter ski. Why draw artificial lines in the snow?

I use both but the wedge progression is almost alway my fall back for timid skiers who feel the need for riding the brakes. The rest of my students learn a wedge for the lift maze but I've found the extra friction is a disadvantage more often than an advantage. Here's why, a braking wedge offers the advantage of not allowing the skier to accelerate as much in the fall line but it also inhbits glide when we're out of the fall line. Which isn't such a good thing when it leads to stopping between turns, or perhaps worse it ingrains the habit of not completing their turns more than about 45 degrees out of the fall line so they won't stop between turns. A lingering habit I see all the time in skiers who come to me seeking advice about speed control when they ski something steep (to them) and can't make more than a few turns

 

The compromise is round turns in a gliding wedge and steering both feet / legs. Some speed control in the fall line ocurs and some glide occurs out of the fall line. IMO that gliding wedge progression isn't very far from a skidding DTP progression though. Obviously the biggest difference is that the inside ski skids on a corresponding edge instead of an opposing edge. Which is something we would be teaching in the Wedge Christie anyway. Can we get a skier sliding sooner in a breaking wedge? Yes and no, it depends on the part of the turn were talking about.

Of course I can, but I really surprised you would ask.....ILS is most prominent in short turns....(well good short turns anyway)....kinda of like asking for an example of a hamburger made at McDonalds.

 

But here ya go...

 

 

Comment: I couldnt find a good CSIA one with just short turns, they always had other stuff mixed in...

 

Here is some great ILS in bumps...(this is how you do it kids!)

 

SD, I dont quite understand you. All other clips except for HH's are heavily up-unweighted. And no matter how well the guy skied in the bumps that video does not qualify as a prime example of ILS. And the lack of up-unweighting. Also, we need to make a very basic destinction between linked turns and stand alone turns. In linked turns one turn is feeding on the prior turn. Its the compensation for up-unweighting. We sometimes call it down-unweighting. In bumps the effect is boosted by the terrain obsitcles we call bumps. Skillfull skier use them to push themselves up. No need to do the leg extention in order to pivot the skis.

ILS...Independent Leg Steering.

 

 

What does that have to do with up-unweigthing, or down-unweighting?  ILS can be done in either application.

 

ILS is a core building block of just about every major ski technique the world over...the base concept is we rotate the femurs in teh hip socket indpendently (ie they obviously have their own axis) but by doing it simutaneously they result in a stable upper body.

 

Why do you think you cannot have up-unweighitng and ILS together?

Here is what you said earlier: Yes you need to establish the "steering" angle via ILS in DTP...no question. So why are you now saying that you should combine the two? If you up-unweight at the same time you use ILS then ILS is not used for initiating the turn. UUW is. It falls under the UUW turn initiation mechanism.

What? 

 

Up-unweighting will not create a turn.  I can finish a dynamic turn such that my COM rises and go into a traverse....I can flex up and down, and still go staight.....neither up-unweighting or down-unweighting by themsevles start turns...you need other stuff to go with it...ILS is one of those things.

Sorry, but I am confused yet again & not following this line of thinking. 

 

Are you saying that you cannot do both?  That is, up-unweight & use independent leg steering in the same turn, whether or not it is in a wedge or parallel initiation?

 

Also, why focus on up-unweighting so much, that is something that my father taught me.  Every up, or extension movement is not necessarily up-unweighting (not to say that unweighting doesn't occur in ski turns).

 

Thanks,

JF

 

Oh, & I can up unweight without turning, not so sure I can steer my legs & say the same.

 

JF

 

I would agree with the idea that ILS doesn't require any sort of up, down, sideways or anti-gravity "unweighting" to be effective for starting a turn. Ample evidence is provided by the many Pivot Slip demos put up here in the past. I often teach Pivot Slips with an emphasis on maintaining the body's height above the snow - which means no up & down movements to overcome existing edge engagement. I want students to release their edges by tipping the skis progressively via lateral movements rather than hopping from one set of edges to the other.


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Earlier a few people suggested one value of the Gliding Wedge is the speed control students get from it. Many of us are now adamant that speed control is NOT to be emphasized (nor even suggested) as an aspect of proper Gliding Wedge technique.

Yes, there is an undeniable mechanical truth: Opposing edges in any Wedge formation inherently create drag. The question is: Should we teach students to use it?

I believe that if a Gliding Wedge is truly taught as a *Gliding* Wedge (not as a Braking Wedge) then our students will not be lured into the "More Wedge is Better Braking" train of thinking. The last thing we instructors want to do is teach students to go straight down a slope and control their speed by varying the size and edge-angle of their Wedge - yet that's what a great many of us do. (My own school still insists we teach students to "stop" using a Braking Wedge going straight down the hill. This is required before we can take them on any chair. I think this should be changed to a Hockey Stop or simply turning across the hill to stop.)


When teaching the Wedge I focus on keeping the student's skis at a minimal edge-angle, minimal Wedge-Angle and using ILS to turn. In this scenario the Gliding Wedge orientation improves a student's lateral balance because the tails are wider apart than their feet. The Gliding Wedge orientation also improves their turn initiations because of the built-in, ready-to-go Steering Angle (on the outside-ski) and because the outside-ski is already tipped onto the correct edge for driving them into the new turn. Independent Leg Steering (ILS) is the primary turning mechanism I teach to Wedge students. I need never mention the "Braking" aspects of a Gliding Wedge formation to my students.


In Direct-to-Parallel (DTP) ILS is still the primary turning mechanism, however we don't have the Wedge's advantage of a pre-established steering angle (meaning the outside-ski is always partially turned across our current path of travel). Because of this we need more emphasis on teaching exactly how to initiate with ILS rather than just 'follow-up' with ILS.

In DTP we also need to focus more carefully on the student's lateral balance. Lacking the Wedge's benefit of wide tails for lateral balance we need to work on drills to improve lateral balance and perhaps encourage a wider stance (at least to start off).

In DTP we also don't have the Wedge's advantage of a pre-established edge angle on the new outside-ski so we need to focus on highly accurate edging skills right away. This can be a bit tricky for beginners on lumpy terrain since it's so hard to keep their skis edged "slightly" with the snow surface so uneven. Wedge students can simply increase the already existing edge-angle of the outside-ski while DTP students must be taught to go from one set of edges, through 'flat' to the other set of edges while initiating a new turn - a complex idea to teach a frightened and tense person.

For DTP students we also need to examine ski/boot/leg alignment much more closely to ensure the finer edging skills needed will actually deploy successfully in their existing gear. Loose boots translates into lack of lateral response in the ski - a real problem if the student needs slow and accurate transitions from one set of edges ... to flat ... to new edges. Because Wedge technique tends to 'pre-position' the outside-ski before a turn even begins, we can get away with much less accuracy in ski/boot/leg alignments than DTP requires (within reason).

I think DTP also requires wider, less crowded beginner runs than Wedge.

Beginners are generally unable to initiate quick turns so anything that improves new-turn initiation helps shorten the distance required to avoid others. Again, the Wedge has built-in characteristics that help with this while DTP will take more room. Also, DTP will likely present us with students moving at higher speeds than Wedge students not only because of the built-in braking attributes of the Wedge formation, but also because turns may not initiate as quickly causing them to accelerate for a longer period of time before completing a turn.

I think both DTP and Wedge can be highly effective if taught properly and in the right terrain.

Wedge technique is only problematic when it gets taught (and emphasized) as a Braking mechanism. Once introduced to any student as a Braking device, that student will instinctively optimize it for that purpose. Students will push their heels out further to grow the Wedge angle, they will tip both skis inward more by twisting the knees further inward - and they will increasingly sit back further to accommodate the bigger, more aggressive Braking Wedge required to give them security as the slopes they're on get steeper.

Bear in mind this isn't the fault of the Wedge itself - it's the way in which we're teaching it and in the way they're deploying it.


.ma

Note that I did not say "create a turn". I said initiate a turn. More exactly, its a very important component. A component you normally cannot be without. ILS will not start a turn all by itself except in very rare cases.

Hi Michael,

While I agree with you that a gliding wedge should allow some acceleration as we turn into the fall line, I think it's unfair to the student to ignore the extra drag they are experiencing in that maneuver. Especially since they will immediately feel the difference in drag between a gliding wedge and a parallel turn. It's also worth mentioning that the movement descriptors include the subject of both edges being slightly engaged through out the entire maneuver. It's not enough to hold the inside ski in a wedged position with the edge disengaged. That is a disqualifier here in RM. So IMO that's why we shouldn't ignore the extra drag, if anything we need to address the fact that it is a necessary element in an accurately executed gliding wedge.

 

That's exactly why I wrote that stuff about round turns where it offers some extra drag in the fall line (speed control) but not so much that it inhibits gliding during the transition. In that description we identify multiple objectives. A Round turns for most of our speed control, extra drag for the first timers who are experiencing acceleration as the ski turn into the fall line, and not so much drag that they stop between turns / abbreviate the turn completion so they don't stop. That is a conscious focus on managing our speed throughout the entire turn. We do that by feathering both engaged edges and actively managing the amount of drag we're creating during the maneuver.

Edited by justanotherskipro - 11/14/10 at 12:52pm

JASP,

I've no doubt any student paying attention will recognize the greater drag in a Wedge vs. a Parallel turn - but if all we're teaching is a Wedge turn they'll have nothing to compare it with! Further, I like to direct their attention to the feathering of that outside-ski as their 'speed control' mechanism rather than the Wedge's opposing edges. This causes them to focus on controlling that ski's position and controlling its ski/drift rather than creating a focus on making the Wedge bigger when they need speed control.

I don't think the drag of a Wedge is even mentioned in current PSIA materials as a relevant component. In the Alpine Manual (pg. 65-66) there is no mention of drag or speed control attributes in a Wedge. In fact, the last point (#7) ends with, "... Control turn speed with turn shape, rather than the size of the Wedge."

I'm not saying that drag doesn't exist nor that students wont use it once they find it - just that we should minimize Wedge drag by encouraging flatter skis and an minimal Wedge angle, forcing (enabling!!) students to use other, more favorable techniques for direction and speed control.

With that in mind, re-read your second paragraph from the perspective of taking beginners out on a *truly Green* run (nearly flat). If on a true Green run then I think students will not experience enough acceleration for 'drag' (sped control via friction) to be an issue and they'll be able to focus on directional control rather than speed control.

Of course, if all we have available is Blueish-Green terrain, then we're probably stuck with students grabbing onto friction anywhere they find it. If so, I think we need to make a special effort to point them toward skidding that outside-ski as the preferred source of fiction.

.ma