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A Great Quiz - Page 3

post #61 of 85
Thread Starter 
I guess I would argue there are only three answers if you're turning left;

1) A-Frame

2) Not enough extension of the outside leg

3) Your c.o.m. or hips could stand to be a little more "inside" the turn.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ February 13, 2002 07:14 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Rusty Guy ]</font>
post #62 of 85
Rusty Guy
1) A-Frame,
No, I haven't moved my knee in yet.

2) Not enough extension of the outside leg, Leg is almost fully extended (vertically).

3) Your c.o.m. or hips could stand to be a little more "inside" the turn.

My hip is not inside the turn I'm trying to roll the tip the skis under my ankle, not push my hip into the turn. I'm going down the fall line, pressuring inside edge of right ski to intiate left turn.
post #63 of 85
Thread Starter 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NordtheBarbarian:
Rusty Guy
1) A-Frame,
No, I haven't moved my knee in yet.

2) Not enough extension of the outside leg, Leg is almost fully extended (vertically).

3) Your c.o.m. or hips could stand to be a little more "inside" the turn.

My hip is not inside the turn I'm trying to roll the tip the skis under my ankle, not push my hip into the turn. I'm going down the fall line, pressuring inside edge of right ski to intiate left turn.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok,

I would respectfully argue pressuring the inside edge of the right ski to go left has fallen out of favor. Tip the left foot onto the little toe to go left. Let the dog wag the tail. Use of the right foot to go left is the tail wagging the dog!
post #64 of 85
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Use of the right foot to go left is the tail wagging the dog!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

RG,

I like that quip.

One question: If I instruct students, first you do this, then you do this, then you do this...to make a turn...will I create victims of technical analysis...who, like Humpty Dumpty, can't put it together again?

Is kinetic chaining a good way to teach or a good way to create paralysis through analysis?

Just wondering.
post #65 of 85
nolobolo posted:
>>One question: If I instruct students, first you do this, then you do this, then you do this...to make a turn...will I create victims of technical analysis...who, like Humpty Dumpty, can't put it together again?<<

Yes you will paralyze them if you leave them thinking about the kenetic chain. I do enough static excercises until they can form a mental picture of what the kenetic chain is about. Then I tell them to ski the mental picture. I kinda eplain about the concept of the analytical thinking self one and the fun loving, motor coordinated self two. I explain that skiing is all about balance and the only thing that self one can balance, is a check book. Self two has all the balance but thinks in images and pictures and feelings. Tell self one to shut up so the fun loving self two can ski.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ February 14, 2002 07:34 AM: Message edited 1 time, by Pierre eh! ]</font>
post #66 of 85
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NordtheBarbarian:
So what does it mean if I only feel the 3 o'clock pressure on my right leg?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My guess is that you are initiating turns with the outside foot/ankle.

Nolo, hopefully, all this becomes automatic, but at the beginning one has to risk some analysis paralysis.
post #67 of 85
Rusty Guy
Are you saying the left (new uphill) ski should be edged by ankle roll before before the downhill ski is edged? Or is the new uphill ski just tipped (while unweighted) by ankle roll before the downhill ski is tipped/edged?
And this tipping occurs before knees and/or hips move into turn? or simultaneously?

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ February 14, 2002 05:48 PM: Message edited 1 time, by NordtheBarbarian ]</font>
post #68 of 85
Thread Starter 
Well....I'm not saying anything.I think it is fairly standard teaching methodology these days.

The new inside ski is tipped and hence released. In most cases, a little inside leg steering occurs, and the inside leg eventually leads the tipping during the shaping phase of the turn. I think "active" outside leg tipping simply leads to a variety of woes.

Think in simple terms. If the outside leg is leading the charge....where does it go as it runs into the inside leg?
post #69 of 85
Hey Rusty Guy
I really don't know that much about standard PSIA teaching methodology these days. So please answer my previous question.

I am I thought "active" outside leg tipping was called angulation. What's the difference?
what's the differnce between tipping and rolling from edge to edge. Do you really tip new inside ski first from during turn intiation from a straight run?

I try to move shins simultaneously. Trying to maintain parallel shafts/similar edge angles. So outside leg shouldn't run into anything.
post #70 of 85
Nord,

Just for a moment, let's assume that it is physically impossible to move both sides of the body simultaneously. Given that one side needs to be first:

Which ski should enter the turn first?

Which ski is closest to the upcoming turn?

How does a ski enter a turn?

Which foot and ankle should tip away from (release) the old turn and engage into the new turn first?

Simultaneous movement may be the goal, but in the same way balance is a goal--unattainable but sought after nonetheless.

NB
post #71 of 85
"Simultaneous movement may be the goal, but in the same way balance is a goal--unattainable but sought after nonetheless.

NB"

Just as we seek to be balanced. We should also seek to be simultaneous.

Nord
post #72 of 85
Yes. Synchronous. Symmetrical. Simultaneous. Balanced.

And I like Scott Hamilton's advice to "skate stupid." Ski stupid. I like that (takes no effort on my part).
post #73 of 85
Thread Starter 
Nord,

I'm not trying to be flippant, however, outside leg tipping is....outside leg tipping. The amount that the outside leg is tipped MAY be a component of angulation or it may be the result of inclination. Angulation is defined in "The Complete Encyclopedia of Skiing" as a "sideways
bending at a joint".

Tipping the ski is putting the ski on edge and is likewise a component of "rolling from edge to edge".

Lastly, yes I tip my inside foot to initiate and to shape any turn. I tip left foot to left little toe to go left from any point on a hill. I blend extension of the outside leg with inside leg tipping and inside leg steering.I also blend inside leg flexion. These are the movements that I teach an individual in their first lesson and they are the movements that I utilize in my own skiing.

My inside leg is steering and dictating turn radius. That is my key to tight carving.

Let me add one wonderful idea passed along to me by Bob B who garnered this from the Mahre's; "start the turn tall and finish the turn tall". This simple phrase cured a lot of the woes in my turns.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ February 16, 2002 04:50 AM: Message edited 1 time, by Rusty Guy ]</font>
post #74 of 85
Rusty Guy,

I like the dog wagging the tail comment, and in the "take the challenge" thread the comment of "Nothing goes right if I go left"... but...

In a wedge turn (opposing edges), isn't the turn initiated by pressuring the outside ski? So to turn left, more pressure isplaced on the right side!! The students don't have enough balance and coordination to release their inside ski edge first.

Some instructors say, when in a wedge, pressure the ski that is pointing in the direction you want to turn. Students then get use to initiating a turn using their future outside ski, rather than leading(tipping) the new inside ski.

We then need to correct this imagery later on. Do wedges, and release the inside edge!! Yeah, the knee is waaay out there, but you feel it in the boot.
post #75 of 85
Hi Keetov--you've just brought up two very good points.

"In a wedge turn (opposing edges), isn't the turn initiated by pressuring the outside ski?" you asked.

The simple answer is "no." But few things in skiing are that simple, eh? It's a "cart/horse" thing, a question of cause and effect. Yes, in a wedge (or parallel--they involve exactly the same movements) turn, the pressure goes to the outside ski. But this pressure transfer is a RESULT of the turn, not the CAUSE. It's the same in a car, isn't it? When you turn the wheels to the right, the car turns right, and the weight goes to the left. But you don't have to tell all the passengers "everyone lean left now so we can turn right"--it's a consequence!

Yes, because the left ski in a wedge turn is pointed to the right, pressing more of your weight on it will make SOME sort of a wedge turn--more of a "zig" than an arc. And, depending on the sidecut of the ski, it will also allow that ski to carve more than the other ski, so there might be a little rounded shape. In addition, usually when people attempt a wedge turn by pressing on the outside ski, they throw in a little upper-body rotation, with further "causes" the turn.

However, while the the movement pattern described in the last paragraph WILL produce some sort of a wedge turn, it does so only by introducing a variety of "dead end movements." It involves what I call "negative movements"--movements in the wrong direction (assuming your intent is to GO in the direction of the turn). Pushing on the outside ski tends to push its tail out, into a skid. Transferring your weight to the outside ski PRIOR TO the turn involves moving your center of mass to the outside.

So the "right" way to do a wedge turn--again assuming that it is intended to be an introduction to the fundamental movements of high-level contemporary turns--is to steer the TIPS IN to the turn. Since the inside tip is in the way of the outside tip, I must steer the INSIDE TIP into the turn first, leading the way for the outside ski. As I do this--as I turn my right tip right, for example--my weight will tend to move toward the left ski. If the turn begins from a straight run down the fall line, the weight transfer will be immediate. If the turn begins from a traverse, or from the end of a previous turn across the hill, the weight transfer will be more gradual. In either case, the weight transfer is mostly a result of the "g-forces" of the turn pulling the skier toward the outside. Since gravity pulls the skier IN to the turn for the first half when the turn begins from an across-the-hill direction, the weight transfer is not necessarily immediate when linking turns.

Your second point is related: "The students don't have enough balance and coordination to release their inside ski edge first."

Remember that in a gliding wedge, the edge is already released! Yes, both skis in a wedge are on their inside edges ("opposing edges"), but a ski does not have to be completely flat to have its edge release. (If it did, we would NEVER have to worry about skidding out of a turn.) It simply has to have its edge angle reduced beyond the "critical edge angle" point. When you stand sideways on a hill, all it takes is a little ankle tension to make your skis hold you there (if you are properly aligned, anyway). Relax your ankles and the skis will release their grip and you will sideslip. They don't need to be completely flat on the snow!

You are right that few beginners have the skills, balance, or trust in their movements to completely flatten their downhill ski, or to lift it up and balance on the uphill ski while "falling" into the turn. This is exactly why we recognize the wedge turn as the first "Milestone" of skill development along PSIA's "Center Line" skiing model. We don't TEACH the wedge turn. We teach these fundamental movements. But more often than not, these rudimentary initial attempts at these same movements of World Cup racers RESULT in a wedge turn!

So a "proper" wedge turn does indeed involve a release of the inside edge--a reduction of its edge angle below the "critical" point--and a guiding of the tips of both skis into the turn. Done this way, it incorporates all of the movements, tactics, and skills of the best turns being done today!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #76 of 85
Nolo,
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Is kinetic chaining a good way to teach or a good way to create paralysis through analysis?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Based on how it is presented it could do either.

I use refrence to it to create a simple, but greater, awareness on the part of the student of HOW their body works to re-inforce WHY I'm promoting movements that start with the feet. I presents it first as a physical experience before re-inforcing and anchoring it with a verbal explanation.

My strategem is thus:
With student standing across falline on flat terrain, I ask them to softly roll feet back and forth in boots. After the first over-wiggle their legs, I ask again to gentle roll just the feet in the boots.

Then, I press my fist down on top of their uphill ski tip to create pressure to flatten the ski, and again have them START SOFTLY rolling the uphill foot toward the little toe side inside their boot. As I feel torque in the ski tip I ask them to roll a little more, then more stronger, and then I ask what their larger leg muscles are doing. They report that they "power up" in responce to the foot's attempt to keep rolling, and I comfirm that power transfered to the ski.

I ask if they notice that their hips have moved in direction of tipping? (yup, they do)

After this I very briefly explain that this is how the kinetic chain works through another guided discovery.

I ask them to put a hand on the shoulder of the student closest to them. I ask if I they could have done so by figuring out which muscle to use in what order to get their hand there? (laughter to the tune of "leg bone connected to the knee bone" ). I explain that the needed movements were "recruited" by the "body genius" based on their "intent" as simply and efficiently as possible. I stress that skiing can be most efficient when we intend to do with our feet what we want our skis to do; edge, grip, slip, shift weight, twist, etc. I add that when focus, or intent, to lead the turn by rolling/tipping toward the little toe loses priority, the chain shuts down with equal efficiency and transfers all support activity to the out side leg, as the only player still in the game, to help it bulldoze the now passive, and inhibiting, inside leg around the corner. I stress that we always are making choices for our bodies by intent and focus, so choose wisely.

I have yet to have a student show anything but "aha" to this little kinisetic adventure. I really only bring to light and clarify what their body already knew, and give them an opportunity to re-inforce it with quality focus and quality awareness.
It creates a powerful referback cue/tool to reinforce not only mental focus but the importance of "following through" with intent to keep allow the body to keep it's focus. Kind of a skiing with mind/body/spirit synergy thing. (the best zen is discovered in everday fun things).
[img]smile.gif[/img]

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ February 18, 2002 08:12 AM: Message edited 1 time, by Arcmeister ]</font>
post #77 of 85
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I really only bring to light and clarify what their body already knew, and give them an opportunity to re-inforce it with quality focus and quality awareness. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's it right there, Roger. It reminds me that we help the student by separating one feeling from many, reducing "noise" down to a critical few signals, or cues.

Very well done!
post #78 of 85
Rusty Guy

If you tip your inside foot to intiate a turn. Doesn't that make your skis diverge? Or are you simultaneously tipping the outside ski?

I'm just trying to figure out you PSIA guys are teaching this year? The terminology is different fromwhat I'm used to.

Nord
post #79 of 85
Bob,

Thanks for the comments.
post #80 of 85
Thread Starter 
Nord- Yes, tipping the old outside/new inside ski to begin a turn can cause divergence and that is not a "bad thing". The opposite is what we see so often in students and that involves a "parallel turn" that begins with a brief momentary stem. One reason for the little stem is a lack of release/tipping/inside leg steering/ and/or rotary motion via the inside foot.

As Bob has described above, as the tips fall down the hill and/or are actively steered, weight eventually transfers very naturally via centrifugal force to the outside ski. I never teach any student to "actively transfer" weight ot the outside ski. As Bob has said the transfer should result from other movements. Blend all this with a little extension or what was in the past referred to as "edge pressure" and the outside tib/fib will mirror the tipping of the inside tib/fib.

I suggest you do this. Try to make a turn in any direction and work to progressively tip your inside leg just as far as you can. It will tighten your turn radius.
post #81 of 85
Rusty,
I've run into the diverging issue a lot and here is what I've discovered by tracking effect back to the skiers movement focus and quality of awareness of cause and effect.

When the movement starts with, and continues to be driven from, a rolling movement of the foot you get little if any divergance. Rolling the foot produces a predominant edging input to the ski which engages it to arc on edge (with the resultant rotary from outward rotation of femur due to kinetic chain too late to dominate but able to enhance tip engagment as tipped axis of lower leg is not perpindicular to snow surface by the time rotary arrives). However when the concept of tipping is mis-understood or mis-guided to be initiated from a focus to move the knee, rotary is the predominant input to the ski because the knee movement comes from outward rotation of the femur as the first movement and the ski tip diverges as soon as the ski flattens, before any effective edge engagement results. Consequently the inside ski pivots first and never gets a chance to arc. It just skids around on its little toe edge (on less edge angle than outside ski). What a drag.

Unfortunatly there are too many race coaches who see the knee move, and not understanding the bio-mechs or cause and effect, tell their racers to move the knees first. Bummer, kids get inefficient bad habits and get beat by those with efficient good ones, little things that mean a lot to the ticking of a ruthlessly objective clock.

Recap: Efficient when the knee moves from kinetic chain effect REFLECTING the edging movement of the foot. Inefficient when knee moves first, and the foot REFLECTS its rotary effect (unless pivoting and a divergant skid of inside ski is desired?).

It all come back to order of movement, appearances are mis-leading to the untrained eye.
:

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ February 19, 2002 07:49 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Arcmeister ]</font>
post #82 of 85
Arcmeister, Oh, so true. The knee movement should be the RESULT of the tipping that started in the feet.

I tell people to picture a zipper running up their leg. The movement happens just as if you were pulling the zipper up the leg, from bottom to top (i.e. from foot/ankle to knee to hip.)

Bob
post #83 of 85
Thread Starter 
Great reply! I guess I want to suggest I see divergence as something that is natural, should happen to some degree, and is indicative of strong carving skills. As mentioned, it is in stark contrast to the tiny, brief stem demonstrated in so many skier's turns.

Did you mean "pedominant" as in foot or predominant. I looked up pedominant and thought I might have learned a great new word describing foot movement! I had no luck.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ February 19, 2002 06:16 AM: Message edited 1 time, by Rusty Guy ]</font>
post #84 of 85
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rusty Guy:
Great reply! I guess I want to suggest I see divergence as something that is natural, should happen to some degree, and is indicative of strong carving skills. As mentioned, it is in stark contrast to the tiny, brief stem demonstrated in so many skier's turns.

Did you mean "pedominant" as in foot or predominant. I looked up pedominant and thought I might have learned a great new word describing foot movement! I had no luck.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I would say that divergence is a result of poor carving skills with the inside leg (too much rotation effectively). If the inside leg is going to track along the outside leg in a clean carve it better not diverge. If it does, you are predominantly carving on the outside ski.

I do see racers have some divergence at the end of the turn (as they pass a gate) to initiate a skating transfer to the new outside leg. But that is on turn completion not turn initiation.
post #85 of 85
Thread Starter 
TomB- I guess I respectfully disagree. I'm speaking of a tiny bit of divergence at turn initiation. In addition, when I am really "hooked up" in a carve I feel as though my inside ski is winning the race against the outside ski!

As I ski behind guys who are known as fairly good carvers/skiers there are times when I see a continuom of slight divergence.
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