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post #61 of 78
I think that if I am going to work in the US then getting PSIA cert makes sense. Its an inner goodwill investment type thing. Sure HH and the rest have lots to offer but a clinic or two should cover that angle.

The way I am skiing at the moment (not) I will have to put in lots of hours of re-practise to make the new moves up to cert standard. (especially those pesky bumps) Sure I will have to yield to some discipline and tighten my loose\free moves to suit the cert mode but that would be a focussing challenge for me. PSIA is the defining cert in the US so it makes sense to be defined locally. Besides I like the place and want to continue to attend with my boys.

Its all cool we have lots to learn everyday.

Now how short should my skis be ...

Oz [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #62 of 78
Jeez, Todd. Stop all that rippin' and get with them pivot slips. Wassamatta w'chu??!!!

Actually HH is not a product of PSIA. He was a racer and race coach before.

He just used PSIA as a platform to launch his new career. It's actually a pretty good marketing ploy--to differentiate yourself from your old associations. It makes you look like a think out of the box rebel.

It's just unfortunate that it has to be done with such vitriolic fervor. It's kind of meanspirited and not altogether accurate.

What do I know? All I can do is pivot slip.
post #63 of 78
this is a very funny thread ! I better log out cause you guys are examiners and it would be very, very funny to have one of next year for an exam ... ya all ask me hard techo questions .... pissst see that funny looking guy with the shoulder pads .... thats OZ!!!!!
ask him what the unladen weight of a swallow is .... and how many beers in a pint

happy skiing everyone .... after all thats what we are here for.

Oz [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #64 of 78
What an interesting thread,
I would not be tempted to post except for my somewhat contary view to the euro picture I've seen painted here by matteo, floyd and others.

Yep, I got a job site unseen teaching in austria as an non-certified 22 year old california kid. didn't have to take any training courses or big tests or even farm the fields. Both my wife and I had a great season learning the language and playing with the austrian talent, so my point is not to diss them, but to point out that we sometimes over romantisize things.

We also tend to under value other things in this thread. I work in an alternative to psia system, and i think some contary thoughts on occasion. I also don't think my contrary thoughts would be as worthwhile if I wouldn't have taken the time to study all the stuff that allowed me to pass my level 3 exam some years ago. Yes, as oz said, the standard should be higher. And as BB says, the standard should be marketed so people want full cert pros and are willing to pay for them. Even with these thoughts, the psia cert is alot more than pivot slips in a corridor. I've skied with demo team guys, austrian top tiers and non certified rippers, and psia isn't so confused. good skiing is good skiing. guys like scsa could be much better skiers if they realized they could learn from a technician who may not rip "the lines" they love.
I'm not a super talented skier and i started late, but though work and study, I feel I can make skiers that already ski better than me, ski better still. One of my tennis and sometime ski proteges just won the days run at the kirkwood extreme comp and got 6th overall. could I have skied his line? no. Could I help him get better for his next comp? yes. Why, because of the work I put in to get certified to understand and recognize good skiing; psia's version, amsp's version and wade's version of it.
Anyway, I'm up late and have a couple drinks so this may not be coherent, but this thread drew it out. Sorry for any typeos or just plain screwed up writing. Cheers, Wade
post #65 of 78

You really know how to engage with me. Thanks, I appreciate it.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. If I ran a school what'd be important to me are skills and the ability to generate reoccurring revenue thru positive word of mouth marketing.

Certification level? Nah. I'm interested in customer testimonials, your ability to teach, and your skills.

Tenure? Nah. If a new instructor comes along and the customers love him, he's moving up fast. If a guy who's been around forever ain't cutting it, he's out the door.

Cheers weems,

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ March 31, 2002 11:07 AM: Message edited 1 time, by SCSA ]</font>
post #66 of 78
My pleasure.

I agree with you on tenure. I don't like seniority because it's like mediocrity. To stay ahead simply on the basis of seniority is an insult to seniors who are improving. We have many senior (and older)pros who are just fabulous and I admire and respect them--not because they are senior--but because they are senior AND keep current AND work damn hard. We don't have tenure here, but we do have a lot of old pros who are kickin' butt.

And I agree with you that the bottom line is the quality of the lesson and the satisfaction of the customer. That's a no brainer.

What I don't think you understand is that certification is a terrific motivator and quality enhancement mechanism. I've seen this work for over fifty seasons (starting with my coaches when I was a kid).

The effort and training in the cert process creates a huge growth spurt in the pro's package. ALL of our pros who have gone through the struggle of the process are better pros for it. (And our process is way easy compared to the Euro models.) What it shows is professional commitment

One of the other benefits is the professional pride. Many wear the pin with pride, and feel like they are part of something strong. (There are more exceptions here, as some just do it for the money.) But I'm very proud of being a part of this organization, and feel it has made a terrific contribution to my skill as a pro--not to mention the lifelong friendships and connections throughout the industry.

You oughta try it. It hasn't seemed to hurt my skiing. Hell we even got Debbie Armstrong and AJ Kitt on board. (Debbie is a trainer with PSIA-RM.) Have you seen Megan and Katie ski and teach? Have you seen Charlie MacArthur and Schanzy and the rest of the D Team?

It's not a perfect process, but we try like hell.

Oops. Gotta go now. Gotta go work on my pivot/slips.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ March 31, 2002 04:38 PM: Message edited 1 time, by weems ]</font>
post #67 of 78
This whole debate of whether to pursue certification or not reminds me of discussions about whether the college degree is important or not. I had some very intelligent friends drop out of school with ony a few hours to go because they were lured away by $$$ only to find later in life that they were blocked from progressing up the ladder due to the lack of a piece of paper. Didn't matter that most of us got the paper and then never actually continued in exactly the same field, just that we had gotten the paper.

I believe the same applies here. Certification is not the "end", simply demonstration of the ability and desire to meet a certain standard of skills and teaching ability.
post #68 of 78
Yes, PJ. Also you get to read Bob Barnes's book!
post #69 of 78
One of my favorite ski pros, a 76 year old woman who teaches at The Loaf, will remark, if she hears of an instructor using "antiquated" teaching methods, "This is really why people get old, its the body that ages, its the mind refusing to accept new ideas".

I personally like the line in Melloncamp's Peaceful World:

"If your'e not part of the future
Then get out of the way!"

That being said, the tenure thing is a problem in every aspect of education. My brother certainly had to deal with the lack of it in the University system, even though he brought to the table many new and exciting things.

But there needs to be a balance! I think that many resorts are making a HUGE mistake in trying to create a complete youth culture in their ski school.

Abbie Hoffman revisited, in MOST cases {Nadine at Whistler being an exception} I would not take class with an instructor under age 28!

Once at Stowe, I was in a class that was about to be broken up into 2 groups, one would go with a "pro" who could not have been any older than 19, the other would go with Gherhardt Schmidt!
I did a quick appraisal of the situation, noticed that Gherhardt was getting the "less proficient" students, and performed a cardinal sin:
I faked less proficient technique to be in Gherhardt's group.

Of course, the situation is never all that simple! An older instructor may have great teaching skills, but not be physically capable of teaching the level he was accustomed to teaching when he was younger.

I was in a level 5 class at Sugarloaf this season. Sugarloaf instructors are noted for their way of pushing students to the next level. This guy was in his late 60s. He watches us ski for a bit, and says that we all have our skis parallel, but he does not think we understand WHY our skis are parallel.

Okay. This is too intellectual, even for me!
So he takes us on the easiest green trail at the Loaf, and has us do linked wedge turns and stem christies for 2 hours. It was wicked cold, but he kept stopping in the middle of the trail to talk to us for 10 minutes at a time.

It became apparent that he himself was not in shape to go up and ski Tote Road or Whiffletree, the trails that are usually used for level 5.

I felt bad for him , but I know many people wrote nasty complaint letters to the ski school.

The sad thing is, he would have made an excellent level 3 teacher.

One more thing, and this may sound harsh. If instructors are unhappy with their SSD, and there are many who feel that way, they should have enough "pull" to get them removed from their position. If teachers don't get along with their boss, the students have a way of feeling it!
post #70 of 78

I'm with ya. How funny. Last night I had a dream that I went thru ski instructor training. Really.

Key word is training. Like you say. What's the worse that'll happen? My skills will improve and I'll learn more about the sport I love so much. In fact, if I'm to keep sounding off I really owe it to the forum to go thru the training. Then, I could be a real gadfly - not just a pain in the arse!

Cheers weems,
post #71 of 78
SCSA, taking the PSIA training would just add to your knowledge, it would not take away what you already know.

It really isn't an either/or type thing. When we changed from the French technique to the Austrian and then to the American techniques, we didn't unlearn what we learned before, we just used what was appropriate for the situation in our free skiing.

When we instructed we stuck to what the school required, but in free skiing you use whatever you want.

I remember when we were already using the American Teaching Method in our area for several years, after our season ended, several insturctors went to help out at Boyne Mountain Michigan which still had an all Austrian Method ski school and they had no problem reverting to teach that.

The more you know, the better it is...just think: PMTS AND PSIA FOR SCSA!

post #72 of 78
SCSA, just remember who was the first one to tell you to train to teach! [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #73 of 78
I'm with Ott and Lisa.
I'll do it.

Sending an email to Barnes to find out when the next class is.

Imagine that.

post #74 of 78
Now SCSA, remeber it is not a religion, just learning more ski techniques

Why I'm saying that is because your enthusiasm sometimes clouds your perception. In learning the PSIA techniques, don't abandon the PMTS techniques and don't try to judge which one is better, or mix them up,etc...just add one to the other...

post #75 of 78
Note to self:
Remember what Ott said.
post #76 of 78
I hate to correct you.
(sorry, that's a lie, I love to correct you!)

But you should have said:

Remember what Ott says


post #77 of 78
Remember what Ott says. For sure.

What!!! PSIA's not a religion?????? How come no one ever told me!!
post #78 of 78
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by weems:
How come no one ever told me!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Too much gospel music ruins ya hearing !!

Oz :
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