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'loaf expansion

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 

http://www.sugarloaf2020.com/Terrain.htmlhttp://www.sugarloaf2020.com/Terrain.html

 

Yes!!!!

 

Everytime I've ridden whiffle tree or king pine, I've look to the left and said to myself that 'loaf should put in side country access to all that terrain.  Not too may lifts, not wide trails, not a lot of grooming or snow-making.  Just enough to make it skiable to people that aren't mountain goats enough to hike too far.

 

-l2t

post #2 of 24

Looking forward to it. Thanks for posting....

post #3 of 24
Thread Starter 

I wish the plan had the proposed lifts.  I'm way curious.

 

My hope is that they do it like Whiffle Tree and King Pine.  One lift from the base to 2/3rds up; one left from 1/3rd up to the peak of Burnt.

 

If you look at the phases, it looks like no new lift for Phase I.

 

Phase II will have to have a lift to the top of Burnt.  I suppose it could go all the way to the bottom just east of the condos.  But that would be stupid as when the top is on wind hold, the whole thing would be down.  A better plan would run it from be that notch just below where Phase II ends going down up to Burnt Peak.  Then you could just ski down to it from the King Pine area to get to it.  Then they could add a lift from the condo area 2/3rds up, like whiffle tree, that could service easier side country.

post #4 of 24

learn2turn.....I think you're missing something here.??....

 

It clearly states that there will be NO lift going up Burnt Mtn. Hike to terrain only. It is in the plan that there will be, eventually, a skiers "road" to the left of King Pine to access Burnt. It should be noted that within 3 years Burnt will add another peak of above treeline skiing. That terrain at the top of Burnt looks awesome. A real nice ridgeline.

 

As for lifts...First, the Spillway chairs will be taken out and replaced with a fixed grip quad. Local knowledge has said this will happen in the summer of 2011. Secondly, lift expansion sounds like replaceing the Timberline Quad , extending it down to Bullwinkles....which would be most excellent. Several other lift replacements or expansions are being considered...Like a lift system from base to summit. I think we will see thatin the next 5 to 10 years. This would be signature lift...maybe even a Gondola.??

 

Check out the plan at www.sugarloaf.com

post #5 of 24
Thread Starter 

The "patrolled side-country" term kinda threw me.  Are patrollers going to hike and sweep?

 

Didn't see anything one way or the other on lifts on the page about the terrain.  Says access will be from King Pine and the word hike appears no one. 

 

Even without a lift, it looks like a good part of it would still be skiable without a ton of hiking.  Of course the Burnt peak would be quite a hike but all of phase I and the bottom part of phase II would be easy.

 

Hiking country is cool even if they don't do lifts.  Just wish I was 20 years younger.  I started skiing loaf in '79.  I sure do miss the old gondi.  2600' vert in one lift ride was just awsome.  We used to do lap after lap after lap after lap on days during January break in college. The whole day on one lift and you could ski every trail on the mountain.

 


Edited by learn2turn - 9/5/10 at 6:34am
post #6 of 24



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by learn2turn View Post

 

I sure do miss the old gondi.  2600' vert in one lift ride was just awsome.  We used to do lap after lap after lap after lap on days during January break in college. The whole day on one lift and you could ski every trail on the mountain.

 


Same here, I miss the old gondi even though it was a bit of a wait sometimes. It only held 3 people & they had to spread the gondi's far apart.

 

I also miss the way the way the King Pine area was laid out before they cut it up & added the quad.

post #7 of 24

The new acreage is "hike to'' terrain (which isn't great for this fat 48 tear old, either)....in phase one. They discribe a "road" to the left of the exit at King Pine...I vision it like the X-cut trail as you exit the Spillway chair

 

Eventually, they are going to service the area with a snowcat(s).

 

To me it looks like intermediate terrain though I am anxious to see how they rate it. Anything with trees, IMO, makes the skiing more difficult.

 

People are questioning how they will manage this area. Sounds like it will get patrolled and sweeped though I can't imagine how you could do this efficiently. The area is huge.!!

 

Could it be that skiers will "sign in and sign out".??

 

As for the Gondola...Those were the days. Cozy little things, weren't they.?? I think they auctioned a bunch of them off...wish I had one. There is mention of base to summit lift service in the plan. I think in time it will happen. And, when it does, I think it will be at least a bubble chair, maybe a gondola but I say...go all out. Make it a Tram.!!!! Sugarloaf(ers) deserves it.!!

 

I like the plan. Sounds like all lift options are being thought out. 

post #8 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugaree View Post

As for the Gondola...Those were the days. Cozy little things, weren't they.?? I think they auctioned a bunch of them off...wish I had one. There is mention of base to summit lift service in the plan. I think in time it will happen. And, when it does, I think it will be at least a bubble chair, maybe a gondola but I say...go all out. Make it a Tram.!!!! Sugarloaf(ers) deserves it.!!

 

I like the plan. Sounds like all lift options are being thought out. 


Seems to me like a funitel would be the best solution. Tram doesn't have much capacity, and you aren't very high off the ground. A gondi would move more people. On the other hand, in my limited Sugarloaf experience, it is windy as hell there and there's nowhere that you can really hide the gondola from the wind. A funitel would move lots of people even when it is windy.

 

My question about the expansion. Does Sugarloaf need more terrain? Does it get crowded? The place is already huge! Not that there's anything wrong with more terrain.

post #9 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post




Seems to me like a funitel would be the best solution. Tram doesn't have much capacity, and you aren't very high off the ground. A gondi would move more people. On the other hand, in my limited Sugarloaf experience, it is windy as hell there and there's nowhere that you can really hide the gondola from the wind. A funitel would move lots of people even when it is windy.

 

My question about the expansion. Does Sugarloaf need more terrain? Does it get crowded? The place is already huge! Not that there's anything wrong with more terrain.



I have no doubt that when the decision is made on a base to summit lift that wind will be considered. In other words....They won't put in a signature lift that has wind closures. So, maybe a funitel.?? Management finally gets it.... wind is an issue. That being said, as a local, there are many, many days in a season that wind is not an issue.

 

Does Sugarloaf need more terrain.?? IMO, no. The place is huge. I think it would take 3 days to ski it all...but, if you take into consideration all the glades that have popped up over the past 5 to 10 years, it would take a week to ski it all. The thing with the new terrain on Burnt Mtn. is much of the harvest (wood) will be sold, making the project relatively in-expensive. Personally, I want to see some cut trails over there with lift access  though I don't think this is in their 10 year plan.

 

There are 3 lifts that get crowded at the 'loaf.....The Superquad at the base....Whiffletree quad at the base....and the Spillway chairs. 3 very important lifts. Most waits are 5 to 10 minutes...sometimes more depending on the time of day.

 

This expansion doubles the acreage.!!....It truely is mind boggling to comprehend how large an area Sugarloaf will become.

post #10 of 24

with one of my best friend who just took a job in maine I am stoked to see this.

post #11 of 24

And I'm sure your friend is stoked at the prospect of many visits from you!

 

Given the economy, the amount of business Sugarloaf does, and the language typically used in ski resort promotion, I don't think we should be holding our breaths for these lift improvements.  Even the replacement of the Spillway is only described as "Our first priority" and "Work is currently underway to secure this . . ." Which may or may not mean a request for bids has gone out.  The other lift improvements are described as "We will continue to examine each of these options".  I'd translate that as "We'd like to do these if we ever have the money."  Not to be too negative, I just think we should be pleasantly surprised when they do happen rather than be too thrilled now and then disappointed when they don't.

post #12 of 24
Thread Starter 


But some if it has "changed" and isn't what is used to be.  The variety of natural terrain, except for glades, has decreased greatly over the years.

 

Take for example Double Bitter.  Used to be a great natural trial.  Now coming off the summit headed west, there's a gallion trails so there's almost nothing in between them.  You get maybe 1/3 down and get to what is now the entrance to the real Double Bitter.and that section skis like it was 30 years ago .  Then you get 2/3 down the trail gets three times wider and there's a freakin' 1/2 pipe!!!.   So 2/3rds of 'Bitter = gone forever, 1/3rd = still old-fashioned east-coast skiing. Now, 'Cuffer and 'Way are the only mostly top-to-bottom trails left that ski even close to like the old days.  Yes, the glades are great and I love them.  But, much of the adventure trails are gone.  The whole section east of Spillway used to be much more primitive than it is now.  Whatever happened to Wedge?  Is that now White Nitro?

 

I'd like to see the expansion adventures trails of various pitches (not all double-black) with little snowmaking and grooming with some of them accessible from lift with not more than a bit of hiking and some of them that require a good hike for those skiers who really want to learn their turns.  That would restore the variety of natural ski 'loaf had when I first started skiing it in the 70s.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugaree View Post

Does Sugarloaf need more terrain.?? IMO, no. The place is huge. I think it would take 3 days to ski it all...but, if you take into consideration all the glades that have popped up over the past 5 to 10 years, it would take a week to ski it all...
post #13 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by learn2turn View Post


But some if it has "changed" and isn't what is used to be.  The variety of natural terrain, except for glades, has decreased greatly over the years.

 

Take for example Double Bitter.  Used to be a great natural trial.  Now coming off the summit headed west, there's a gallion trails so there's almost nothing in between them.  You get maybe 1/3 down and get to what is now the entrance to the real Double Bitter.and that section skis like it was 30 years ago .  Then you get 2/3 down the trail gets three times wider and there's a freakin' 1/2 pipe!!!.   So 2/3rds of 'Bitter = gone forever, 1/3rd = still old-fashioned east-coast skiing. Now, 'Cuffer and 'Way are the only mostly top-to-bottom trails left that ski even close to like the old days.  Yes, the glades are great and I love them.  But, much of the adventure trails are gone.  The whole section east of Spillway used to be much more primitive than it is now.  Whatever happened to Wedge?  Is that now White Nitro?

 

I'd like to see the expansion adventures trails of various pitches (not all double-black) with little snowmaking and grooming with some of them accessible from lift with not more than a bit of hiking and some of them that require a good hike for those skiers who really want to learn their turns.  That would restore the variety of natural ski 'loaf had when I first started skiing it in the 70s.

 



Well, I don't disagree with you. Sugarloaf has changed. The change that hurts me most, as subtle as it may be, the tree island on Narrow Gauge will be gone in.....5 years.?? Maybe 7 years.?? That hurts. I would like to see them plant trees right there as a landmark, trademark of Sugarloaf.

 

Some change is good, some change is bad. It effects different skiers in different ways. For the most part, I approach Sugarloaf as a screaming GS mountain. If I had my way it would be groomed wall to wall. It is a go fast mountain. I hear you on the Double Bitter trail. It has opened up at both ends. The top is more of an access trail to Hayburner and Kings Landing...2 great trails. Towards the bottom, up above the halfpipe, is an interesting and fun, high banked sort of exit. Wait, maybe I am thinking Spurline.?? The area has changed but I still enjoy that small portion of the mountain.

 

As to the lift upgrades...I am counting on it, this time around. Sugarloaf has never had an owner with a ton of money. Boynes got it. Look at what they did to Sunday River. And, I just saw somewhere, at one of there resorts, a new gondola. It will happen at Sugarloaf. The work that is under way on the Spillway chair, by the way, is a re-alignment which will help with wind issues. Sugarloafers have waited a long long time for these upgrades and I truely believe the wheels are in motion. I have heard that this 10 year plan has $30million attached to it. I have no doubt that the lift issues will be addressed and it will begin at Spillway. Then, extend Timberline down to Bullwinkles. Makes perfect sense. One thing that has not been mentioned....all the terrain on the West side, though they did mention a better lift for that area. There is a potential for a 2nd base lodge on the West side with lots of acreage for new trails.

 

As for the signature lift....In time this will happen, as well. Last spring Seth Wescott gave a local speech and it led directly to a signature lift, base to summit. He is very well liked in these parts and I wouldn't be surprised if he gets the wheels moving, maybe a campaign of sorts,

 

So, I am going to stay positive about these changes. I would say Boyne has done a good job and I have no reason to believe these things won't happen. In other words...If Spillway doesn't get replaced they will get boo'ed out of town. I don't see that happening. They are sincere when they talk about the future at Sugarloaf. It's a magical place that deserves attention...even if it is in the East.!! 

post #14 of 24

This is Burnt Mountain...All those trees in the background. Yum.

Sugarloaf 3.3.10 Tractor 035.JPG

post #15 of 24

This Is Burnt Mountain, the ridge line in the background.....This above treeline mountain will be accessable by a snowcat, eventually. Huge.!!Sugarloaf 4.9.08 015.JPG

post #16 of 24

The one thing Boyne has always done is put the money back into improvements.  It's mostly a family-held operation, so they don't have to satisfy a bunch of stockholders.

 

When they started their expansion out of Michigan with the purchase of Big Sky, the first thing they did was reduce staff overhead (every secretary used to have two secretaries) and replace old, slow lifts with detachables.  Then came the tram.

 

Same at Brighton in Utah, Crystal in Washington, etc., etc.

post #17 of 24

Just a couple more perspectives. The photo with the lift is the top of the King Pine quad. The expansion will allow skiers to exit left all the way to the top of Burnt Mountain....When phase 3 is complete it will be snowcat accessible to the top with everything in between (brackett basin) accessed by a skiers "road" from the top of King Pine. All gladed skiing. When you consider this view you can see....it is vast.Sugarloaf 3.25.09 037.JPGSugarloaf 3.25.09 053.JPG

post #18 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugaree View Post

 If I had my way it would be groomed wall to wall. It is a go fast mountain.....



Slap yourself...

post #19 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by ed_d View Post





Slap yourself...


Huh.??

 

Like I said.....Sugarloaf is a go fast mountain.

 


 

post #20 of 24

A little less cutting eastward from Spillway certainly would help keep some wind off the snow...especially in the early AM hours.  Think they'd be surprised at just how much new growth could help windage.   They've obviously looked at what Saddleback has done...and how much that has added to the ski day there.  A positive move, although as mentioned...newer lifts on Spillway and Whiffletree would help a lot as well.
 

post #21 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugaree View Post




Huh.??

 

Like I said.....Sugarloaf is a go fast mountain.

 


 


Of course, but surely you don't want the whole thing groomed....which is a funny thing to say in a thread about a sidecountry expansion. 
 

post #22 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by ed_d View Post




Of course, but surely you don't want the whole thing groomed....which is a funny thing to say in a thread about a sidecountry expansion. 
 


Well, yes, of course.

 

After all, Sugarloaf does ski just great in the fresh Pow.

 

I have knee deep on Comp Hill and I wouldn't trade anything for that.!!

 

Fact is, loaf management does a real good job of leaving many trails au'nat-u-ral for several days after a dump.
 

post #23 of 24

So what's the verdict? Did some new terrain open this season?

post #24 of 24
Thread Starter 

I was at 'loaf Saturday and did five runs down the backside and then into the glades on skiers right.  That area, which is on skiers right from the top of King Pine has been called the "Can't Dog" glade on the map.  On some runs we went as far to skiers right as you could right up to the "Ski area boundary signs".  I have to assume that that is as far as Phase I goes.

 

It seems to me that what is open for phase I skis like an extension to skiers right of the Can't Dog glade.  I can't remember it well enough to say how much wider it is.  

This in my opinion one of the most fun glades on the east coast.  There are numerous lines of various pitches, a couple not-too scary cliffs that you can pick your way through without hucking if you want or you can just ski around them and avoid them completely.  There some fairly open sections without too much pitch which you can ski with bit of speed instead of like some east-coast glades which you have to pick your way through.

 

You can ski most of that terrain without going below the loading area for the King Pine chair which is nice if you don't want to ski the flatter area lower down.


We did ski below the bottom of King Pine on one run and took the last left traverse that gets you back to Whiffletree without having to go around the condos.  It's really quite flat below King Pine.  The trees are pretty open but if the snow is at all sticky, you barely have enough pitch to keep moving.  It might be fun to ski when the snow is dry but not a spring day.  If you look at the map of the lower part of Phase I, I think you want to bail at the bottom of King Pine.  It looks like on Phase II and III, if you stay to skiers right, you're going to be in for a long slow slog out if you do that loop around the condos.  I noticed on the map what looks like a bridge over a gully between Phase I and Phase II at about the same altitude as the bottom of King Pine.  My guess is anyone skiing the top of Phase II or III when they are open may want to go down only that far and then traverse straight left over the bridge and back to King Pine, kinda like the Corona Highway at the bottom the Dip at Jay.

 

Disclaimer: I love 'loaf, would retire there tomorrow if I could, and have maybe 40-50 days there over the years but I am not a local.  It would be great to hear more from a local about what's there now and what's planned in the future .  Of course I wouldn't expect them to post their favorite stashes, just general info.

 

 

-l2t

 

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