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Help me with a pre-season leg routine - Page 2

post #31 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gramboh View Post

Single leg squats (aka pistols) are great. You can hold onto something at first as they can be hard to do (full range of motion), weight can be added with DBs or KBs. I also like Bulgarian split squats and single leg deadlifts as well.


What do you think about lunges with the foward foot on an unstable surface. Last night I put this squishy blue disc in front and then weighted my forward leg. Much more challenging because unstable.
post #32 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer View Post

I've stopped using all the weight machines and sleds.  Those all isolate your core muscles out of the load path.  You end up with legs and arms stronger than your back can support.

I use exercises that challenge my balance.  One footed squats and dead lifts, lunges, different things on stability balls.  The basic idea is to train yourself to balance, and to train your muscles to respond in a coordinated way.  Machines isolate muscles and train them to respond individually. That may be OK for body builders or maybe for rehab, but it's not effective athletic training. 

Core strength is far more important for skiing (or most athletic activity) than leg strength. Stationary bikes are for warming up only.  Running is better for skiing than cycling. Go outside.

 

BK 



This is along the lines of what I was going to tell you.

 

Squats (I do bodyweight and dumbbell), lunges, cable extenions for abductors and adductors, step-ups, deadlifts, calf raises, are all leg strength excersises that I do. An often overlooked disadvantage of using machines on your legs is that if you are doing an excersise such as a leg press, if one of your legs is stronger than the other, you will be using it to bear most of the load. This causes an even greater strength imbalance. I will occasionally get on a leg press machine, but I will always do one-legged presses.

 

I also do a host of balance excersises on balance discs and a BOSU ball and lower back strenghtening excersises. (the lower back is very important to keep in your routine). One month before the season starts (for me) I'll do some plyometrics along with the balance excersises.

post #33 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by deliberate1 View Post

What do you think about lunges with the foward foot on an unstable surface. Last night I put this squishy blue disc in front and then weighted my forward leg. Much more challenging because unstable.



This is a good way to add some stability challenge to it. This will help to 'wake up' and build stabilizer muscles that you would not normally be using. As you can imagine, something like this is very good to do for a sport like skiing because your environment is constantly changing beneath your feet.

 

 

post #34 of 42


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deliberate1 View Post

What do you think about lunges with the foward foot on an unstable surface. Last night I put this squishy blue disc in front and then weighted my forward leg. Much more challenging because unstable.


I think these are good if you're ready for them, and even then, they should be combined with work on a stable surface - either within the same week/day, or do a few weeks with one and then a few weeks with the other.  When I say if you're ready for them, I mean that first you need to be able to split squat well on stable ground. Then you need to be able to lunge well on stable ground. Look in a mirror when you lunge. Does your knee of your front leg collapse to the inside? If yes, then you are not able to do a proper lunge, and definitely should not be doing them to a bosu. If it doesn't collapse, then the unstable surface landing is fine. But look in the mirror there too (at least initially) to make sure you're getting decent mechanics. If your knee is wobbling all over the place then I'd suggest regressing to something else. 

 

Elsbeth

post #35 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by evaino View Post


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deliberate1 View Post

What do you think about lunges with the foward foot on an unstable surface. Last night I put this squishy blue disc in front and then weighted my forward leg. Much more challenging because unstable.


I think these are good if you're ready for them, and even then, they should be combined with work on a stable surface - either within the same week/day, or do a few weeks with one and then a few weeks with the other.  When I say if you're ready for them, I mean that first you need to be able to split squat well on stable ground. Then you need to be able to lunge well on stable ground. Look in a mirror when you lunge. Does your knee of your front leg collapse to the inside? If yes, then you are not able to do a proper lunge, and definitely should not be doing them to a bosu. If it doesn't collapse, then the unstable surface landing is fine. But look in the mirror there too (at least initially) to make sure you're getting decent mechanics. If your knee is wobbling all over the place then I'd suggest regressing to something else. 

 

Elsbeth


Elsbeth, thanks for the tip. I will check my stance out in the gym on Monday. 

Can you suggest the correct position and location of the rear foot - directly behind, off to the outside, pointed straight ahead or at and angle to front foot, etc.

And what is the most effect way to carry supplemental weight - bar under chin or hand weights by side.

As always, much obliged.

David

post #36 of 42


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deliberate1 View Post

Elsbeth, thanks for the tip. I will check my stance out in the gym on Monday. 

Can you suggest the correct position and location of the rear foot - directly behind, off to the outside, pointed straight ahead or at and angle to front foot, etc.

And what is the most effect way to carry supplemental weight - bar under chin or hand weights by side.

As always, much obliged.

David


I think the back leg position directly behind is going to harder, but that's not necessarily better as it means you'd be lifting less weight. I usually suggest wider, but never really dictate how wide - I think people can find the position that is comfortable. I prefer back foot in line with the front vs pointed out, but that will depend on the individual's anatomy. Try it with the back foot straight ahead, but if that causes any discomfort (not muscle weakness, but discomfort/pain), then that's not a good position for you, so try it with the back foot turned out a bit. If it feels naturally like it should point out but doesn't pinch in the hip/groin area with the foot straight ahead, then you should still try foot straight ahead, as that is likely just an issue of tight muscles. 

 

For the best way to carry weight, it depends. Bar is probably your best bet, but that is usually more difficult to balance, so you want to start with DBs by the side. But with DBs  by the side, make sure you're still keeping your chest up. Truthfully, I rarely use lunges at all, let alone to an unstable surface. I think if I did use either, it would be with DBs. I much prefer split squats and rear foot elevated to lunges. 

 

Elsbeth

post #37 of 42
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by evaino View Post


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deliberate1 View Post

Elsbeth, thanks for the tip. I will check my stance out in the gym on Monday. 

Can you suggest the correct position and location of the rear foot - directly behind, off to the outside, pointed straight ahead or at and angle to front foot, etc.

And what is the most effect way to carry supplemental weight - bar under chin or hand weights by side.

As always, much obliged.

David


I think the back leg position directly behind is going to harder, but that's not necessarily better as it means you'd be lifting less weight. I usually suggest wider, but never really dictate how wide - I think people can find the position that is comfortable. I prefer back foot in line with the front vs pointed out, but that will depend on the individual's anatomy. Try it with the back foot straight ahead, but if that causes any discomfort (not muscle weakness, but discomfort/pain), then that's not a good position for you, so try it with the back foot turned out a bit. If it feels naturally like it should point out but doesn't pinch in the hip/groin area with the foot straight ahead, then you should still try foot straight ahead, as that is likely just an issue of tight muscles. 

 

For the best way to carry weight, it depends. Bar is probably your best bet, but that is usually more difficult to balance, so you want to start with DBs by the side. But with DBs  by the side, make sure you're still keeping your chest up. Truthfully, I rarely use lunges at all, let alone to an unstable surface. I think if I did use either, it would be with DBs. I much prefer split squats and rear foot elevated to lunges. 

 

Elsbeth


Elsbeth, thanks.

How do you describe a "split squat"? I looked on line and saw a guy doing fixed lunges with a bar on his back.

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Quadriceps/BBSplitSquat.html

Is that what you were referring to?

David

post #38 of 42

Exactly - it's a static lunge. You want to get strong at the static move before adding the dynamic lunge part.  It can be done with a barbell or with dumbbells. 

 

The form in the video you posted is pretty bad though. In a proper split squat, the movement is literally straight down, whereas in that video/animation, it's forward and down - not great for the knees. Here's a better video example:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKe29tTKGyw&feature=related

 

This one's a bodyweight example, but it shows how the movement should look. Just add a bar or DBs and do the same thing.

 

Elsbeth

post #39 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by evaino View Post

Exactly - it's a static lunge. You want to get strong at the static move before adding the dynamic lunge part.  It can be done with a barbell or with dumbbells. 

 

The form in the video you posted is pretty bad though. In a proper split squat, the movement is literally straight down, whereas in that video/animation, it's forward and down - not great for the knees. Here's a better video example:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKe29tTKGyw&feature=related

 

This one's a bodyweight example, but it shows how the movement should look. Just add a bar or DBs and do the same thing.

 

Elsbeth


E, got it. I see the difference in technique and have to say that have been doing lunges more like the guy in the vid I posted - moving the body forward with knee beyond toe with forward foot. And the forward knee is probably more than 90 degrees as well. Seems to me your suggestion is "easier" (and safer) because it keep the COM over both legs while the way I have been doing it gets it too much on the forward leg. 

Much obliged,

David

post #40 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by deliberate1 View Post

E, got it. I see the difference in technique and have to say that have been doing lunges more like the guy in the vid I posted - moving the body forward with knee beyond toe with forward foot. And the forward knee is probably more than 90 degrees as well. Seems to me your suggestion is "easier" (and safer) because it keep the COM over both legs while the way I have been doing it gets it too much on the forward leg. 

Much obliged,

David


Great. It is okay for the front knee to go a bit past 90, you just don't want it much past. In a lunge you're more likely to move a bit forward - again okay, just not good if it's too far forward. You might find it more difficult initially to do it properly because often people get used to a "quad dominant" movement pattern, and this version engages the quads but also some posterior chain (glutes and hamstrings). I believe there is a relationship between quad dominant movement patterns and knee overuse injuries.

 

Elsbeth

post #41 of 42


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deliberate1 View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by gramboh View Post

Single leg squats (aka pistols) are great. You can hold onto something at first as they can be hard to do (full range of motion), weight can be added with DBs or KBs. I also like Bulgarian split squats and single leg deadlifts as well.




What do you think about lunges with the foward foot on an unstable surface. Last night I put this squishy blue disc in front and then weighted my forward leg. Much more challenging because unstable.


My personal experience is that the bosu does not add a benefit to the training effect, and can introduce dangerous positions (valgus typically for most people -- knee collasping inward of the hip/ankle). To make it more challenging, simply add weight (DB's are safest, BB can handle more weight but harder to dump in a lunge or split squat). The bosu is popular, and people claim effeciacy, but I personally from a cost/benefit I don't like it. If it works for you that is all that matters though, but if you compare someone doing lunges or split squats with 70# DB's in each hand to someone doing them unweighted on a bosu, I'll bet money the person with the 70's has better knee tracking, leg strength and torso stability.

 

To really make it hard, do front foot elevated reverse lunges. Take box (8 inch works well), stand on it, step back with one leg into a deep lunge, step back up using only your front foot. It ends up being similar to a pistol/one leg squat but easier on the leading knee. These are really hard, even without weight I struggle and I am a decent squatter.

post #42 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gramboh View Post


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deliberate1 View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by gramboh View Post

Single leg squats (aka pistols) are great. You can hold onto something at first as they can be hard to do (full range of motion), weight can be added with DBs or KBs. I also like Bulgarian split squats and single leg deadlifts as well.




What do you think about lunges with the foward foot on an unstable surface. Last night I put this squishy blue disc in front and then weighted my forward leg. Much more challenging because unstable.


My personal experience is that the bosu does not add a benefit to the training effect, and can introduce dangerous positions (valgus typically for most people -- knee collasping inward of the hip/ankle). To make it more challenging, simply add weight (DB's are safest, BB can handle more weight but harder to dump in a lunge or split squat). The bosu is popular, and people claim effeciacy, but I personally from a cost/benefit I don't like it. If it works for you that is all that matters though, but if you compare someone doing lunges or split squats with 70# DB's in each hand to someone doing them unweighted on a bosu, I'll bet money the person with the 70's has better knee tracking, leg strength and torso stability.

 

To really make it hard, do front foot elevated reverse lunges. Take box (8 inch works well), stand on it, step back with one leg into a deep lunge, step back up using only your front foot. It ends up being similar to a pistol/one leg squat but easier on the leading knee. These are really hard, even without weight I struggle and I am a decent squatter.


All good stuff. Thanks.

David

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