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Teaching Asian skiers - Page 4

post #91 of 111

I'm surprised no one freaked at dchan's "Chasing the Chicken" creative teaching segment.  Surely that's something... 

Well I suppose it's better than having someone where you propose to do "Chasing the Dragon"

post #92 of 111

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chanwmr View Post

 

 

 

And, other posters aren't doing the same here? Recheck the original title and contents of this thread if you can't recall. Hmm... There were no inferences there, were there?

 

BTW, since you're so quick in calling someone else ignorant, are you so superior that you can overrule others' opinion and slam them personally at will? I never claim that my theory has full merit (or any extent for that matter) . YOU, on the other hand, are just simply pathetic and arrogant.

 

I got enough of your slendering. O+O

 

I'm just telling it like it is.  I can tell from your posts that you have no idea what you're talking about.  Slandering is when you lie about someone else's attributes.  In this case, I'm not lying.  You clearly know little about genetics.  And it shows.

 

You can make inferences about things that you have expertise in.  If a ski instructor has experience teaching asians, and thinks that asians tend to have more problems in skiing than non-asians, then that is something that can be taken seriously (although there may certainly be cognitive biases at work).  However, when someone (like you) tries to make inferences about genetics using reasoning that makes no logical sense due to a clear lack of understanding--that is not something to be taken seriously.

post #93 of 111

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

 

I'm surprised no one freaked at dchan's "Chasing the Chicken" creative teaching segment.  Surely that's something... 

Well I suppose it's better than having someone where you propose to do "Chasing the Dragon"

 

yea--that is kinda racist....hehe

post #94 of 111

softsnowguy: your basic points are taken to heart. But one thing, one of my instructors is a World Champion from Austria - just an FYI. That aside, nothing you have said is illogical or inconsistent to what I have been told.  The other instructor was just rated this past year as the #1 instructor at (a) Banff - at Sunshine & Lake Louise (b) N/ew Zealand last summer  (c) #1 also at Nagano-Japan this past winter. Their point was to emphasize certain movements. And its funny that you describe the exercise of "strapping the poles around the waist" - here is where my skiing improved exponentially - I put my poles together and held them hard against my tailbone and skiied - i held those poles always perpendicular to the fall line so if my hip came off them I knew I was NOT facing the fall line and pushed my hips square, it was remarkable, and incredible how i found so much control skiing down New England and Upstate NY Black Diamonds that way, I was flying with absolute control, setting my edges, I would tell myself "tip on edge" and fly like the wind. The reason I began to use my poles again is that with a shredded (ripped) rotator cuff and bicep tendon sitting on my elbow, the poles help in preventing any weird falls onto it, and provide a mental "linus" sec blanket....and my season is not over yet, hoping for another 7 days in Austria in April and praying for another dump in NY. I appreciate your forthright and forceful counsel, it goes right into my cheat sheet, but note those who advise me are some of the best on this f**king planet and genuinely kind and love my ferocious attacking the slopes, where I focus on technique and physics and not on who has the biggest b*lls, if I can do this, i know I am in heaven...

 

and this...well, that is my TARGET..both of these videos give you an idea of where I am headed, and yes, for future arm motion ability, i have no option but surgery but given that any moment this world we know, is about to sink into the Atlantic (metaphorically speaking, and I do know what I am talking about) but it may not if Ben Bernanke can pull off his magic trick, and frankly I think he will ... but we wont know that for a while..here is a another skill level I'd like to achieve and my ski season does not end till end of April!

 

Thank you for your hearfelt counsel, i could actually feel the passion in your prose and that is seriously appreciated, so one day when I post an MA, I will be proud when you my remote friend say, hey, that is good skiing!

best

Raven

ps: all this asian and all the crap is so stupid its ridiculous, why are Austrians monopolizing downhill skiing and for all of Americans skiing as such they are pathetic and sporadic on the world stage, Lindsay V just took the world championship and her story is a parable to human endeavour and achievement, but Bode Miller is a bit of a joke, the guy went to a ski school at 40k/yr for most of his childhood and he just dropped out recently because he could not compete, lets be clear Mr Miller is of course a great skiier but he is not and never will be a Hermann Maier, or Alberto Tomba or Jean Claude Killy.

 


Edited by dustyfog - 3/21/2009 at 02:46 am
post #95 of 111

After much internal debate I have decided to offer my services to any instructor interested in obtaining deep insight into an Asian (immigrant) mind. Indian to be specific, but my wife is Chinese and that makes me an even rarer find! An hour of complementary intermediate-to-advance training is all you have to bring to the table. I’ll be at Camelback, PA this Saturday. First PM received, first served. Openings areis limited, so hurry!!!

post #96 of 111
 

5ki8um, Bringing your wife into this. You expect to stay married after this?

post #97 of 111


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chanwmr View Post

 

5ki8um, Bringing your wife into this. You expect to stay married after this?

 

Shh... she doesn't even know I'm going skiing Saturday. What she doesn't know can't hurt herme, right?


Edited by 5ki8um - 3/20/2009 at 03:25 pm
post #98 of 111

I have a co-worker who calls me "Foreigner." Can you imagine the repercussions of calling someone you work with 'Foreigner' instead of their first name? "Hey Foreigner, come here a minute!" 

 

Yet, here in Japan, that is completely acceptable because he is identifying me by my role. My job, as implemented by the government, is to bring cultural diversity. I am the one foreigner in the building. Of course he calls me Foreigner. Sit down and think about it, and it makes complete sense to identify somebody by their role instead of their name in a society that values the group more than the individual. Hear it the first time, assume your own cultural standards, and you'll likely be offended. That's your problem for not listening. 

 

The same is true with this thread. People read their own interpretation instead of the speaker's and things get all fouled up. 

 

Guess what... the rest of those in the world aren't idiots. They just don't process information the way you do. And you're confused. 

post #99 of 111

disclaimer-I am Asian and I ski with alot of Asians.  I am not an instructor though.

 

I don;t think there is anything inherently different with how Asians learn how to ski.  I think you are going to have some who get it and some who don;t right away.   you are going to get some who approach skiing in an analytical way and some who do it on feeling.  the only thing I noticed is that amongst the people I ski with, if they learned something and were comfortable with it, they tended not to easily break out of it or try to learn something new.  I try to tell them that there are many different ways to ski and depending on the conditions, you might employ different techniques depending on the situation.  an instructor I had at Sugarloaf called this differentiating between "tactics versus technique".  however, this seems to throw some people for a loop.  I commented in the "why people don;t take lessons thread"  that for most people, once they learn how to do something well enough-making parallel rail turns and hockey stops, they usually just do those and avoid trails that those techniques don;t work on.  there might be a "stubbornness" factor somewhere there.  latley, i have been working with some of my friends on getting off their edges and onto the flats of their skis so they are not so reliant on them and too be more comfortable in powder or spring crud.  I think it works okay in soft spring moguls as well.  some people are receptive to it and some are "get me back on the groomed trail ASAP".

 

this past weekend, I was skiing with a lady who was a beginner complete with foot steering, wedging and no pole planting, totally in the backseat.  She was telling me that she was totally wiped out after a couple of runs.  So I ski with her and try to get her to first relax so the skis would turn down hill on their own.  she is so deathly afraid of getting hurt that she is constantly putting on the brakes.  I work with her weight, trying to teach her pole planting.  she does well following me but when she skis on her own or in front of me, she forgets eveything!  I have to ski behind her and remind her to pole plant.  I can only hope through repetition it all sticks in her head.  however, i don;t think it;s related in any way to the fact that she is Asian. 

post #100 of 111

Can I add my $.02? My initial experience teaching college students from Pacific rim countries led me to ask the question about ethnic influence on skiing skills. As time went on, and I gained experience, I eventually realized the issue had more to do with whether someone grew up where water freezes on the ground. My most recent extra challenging student had lived only in Florida. Definately northern European ancestry. She ended up making technically great turns on the bunny hill moving at about 100 yards per hour. As soon as her feet started to slide she froze. Moving to an easy green run undid what little confidence/comfort she had gained. My fault, not enough practice on the bunny hill.

 

My conclusion? It's not about genetics or ethnicity. It's about environment. Culture plays it's role in influencing activities experienced and skills developed.

 

Remember last years thread and video about the girl with no proprioception? She moved pretty darn well didn't she? Given enough time and guided practice anyone can learn our sport.  We have no control over what athletic ability our students arrive with. It's up to us to do our best to ensure they leave with more then they arrived with. If your student didn't improve while with you and have fun doing it, then it's time to reevaluate your teaching skills and try to improve them.

post #101 of 111


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KAZOOSKI View Post

 

Remember last years thread and video about the girl with no proprioception? She moved pretty darn well didn't she? Given enough time and guided practice anyone can learn our sport.  We have no control over what athletic ability our students arrive with. It's up to us to do our best to ensure they leave with more then they arrived with. If your student didn't improve while with you and have fun doing it, then it's time to reevaluate your teaching skills and try to improve them.


 

Excellent post, KAZOOSKI !! 

 

Here's the video you referred to: 

 

post #102 of 111

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

 

OK.  How about this:

 

I have a friend.  She wants to learn to ski.  She also is interested in going to the gym to build up her fitness level and strength.   She has taken numerous 3-hour private lessons at a nearby hill, and still can't glide straight down a very short very shallow distance without fallling, nor stand up after falling down, nor recognize what the fall line is so she can put her skis perpendicular to it to get up, nor make a single turn before falling.  She can't walk without holding the hand of her instructor.  Forget poles.  She is determined to learn, but just doesn't make any progress.  

 

I took her for a first session at the gym.  After watching me use a machine, she couldn't do it.  She couldn't seem to remember from one minute to the next how to move any body part.  It was amazing.  I would explain bend your knees, like so, and she would bend at the waist.  Or something else.  I also, many years ago, "taught" this woman to drive.  Oh boy, was that a story.  She was at one time heading straight for a telephone pole, screaming "what do I do what do I do????"   I thought we were both going to die.  (She does drive now, many years later.  We did not hit the telephone pole.  I turned the wheel.)

 

There's something going on here with my friend.  It may be very specific to her personally, or perhaps connected to the experiences of others from India.  I'd like to learn something from this thread that will help me, or someone, teach her to ski so she can enjoy the mountain while her daughter skis.  The child is a great skier, by the way.

 

 

A couple of questions - does she have difficulty with coordination in her day-to-day activities?  Does she fall often?  Can she walk a straight line without stepping to the side?  If there are abnormalities in her balance and coordination, it might be a good idea for her to see a neurologist before she invests any more money and time in lessons.

 

I suspect also that she is also paralyzed by fear.  The telephone pole incident certainly suggests this.  Perhaps the key is to teach her the sensation of gliding in a situation where fear isn't an issue.  She might do better first learning to cross-country ski, in soft, "slow" snow, where she'll only glide as fast as her own power dictates.   

 

Finally, body awareness can be very difficult for many people, simply because most of the motor system operates below the level of their conscious minds.  Our motor systems are designed to accomplish goals, not place our body parts in particular positions.  For example, getting into a car is an extremely complex action - pulling on the handle, swinging the door out to a particular position without overshooting, balancing on one leg and then smoothly sitting while while swinging the leg in and closing the door.  If you thought about each component of the action, you'd probably fall down or smash your leg in the door. 

 

So perhaps instructions that are goal-oriented rather than body position-specific would be more helpful.  For me, learning to pole plant effectively has transformed my skiing, simply because it's very easy for me to see whether I'm doing it right.  If I'm not, my motor system has feedback systems hardwired in place to correct the movement.  I don't have similar systems to ensure that my "shoulders are always pointing downhill" because it's not really a goal.

post #103 of 111

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrzinwin View Post

 

I don't agree with this.  Essentially, you're saying that Chinese skiers are doing poorly because of a lack of role models.  Honestly, when a beginner is on the slopes, he's not thinking "I'm chinese, with no role models, therefore I can't ski."  He's thinking--"don't fall, don't fall, don't fall, don't fall...omg, I'm going too fast, I can't stop,  I'm gonna fall!!!"

 

Personally, I think that Asians tend to have a fear of falling and it is this fear that holds them back---not some convoluted psychobabble about role models.

 

 

This thread is still going?

 

(I'd forgotten about this.)

 

Actually, ontario ran off in the wrong direction with what I was trying to say, but I didn't bother to correct him.  I think he took the Caucasian skiers "seen on TV" part of what I said and thought I meant that Asians didn't see Asian skiing role models on TV, hence he responded with the montage of photos.

 

No.  What I meant was significantly different.  I meant like an Uncle-Wong-the-ex-ski-pro in the family.  Much like an Uncle Wayne in the family who played a bit of college ball back-in-the day.  Having somebody like that in the back of your mind allows you to put yourself against him in that role.  Like, "Well, Uncle Wong is alright but kind of a dork.  Heck, if he could do it..."

 

Uncle Wong is the approachable metric.  The normal, real guy that isn't from another world.

 

Of course, when you fall down, you get pissed and re-double your efforts, and put in even more strength (the kind that leaves you sore the next day), all because Uncle Wong is a real person much like you who you know you are not inferior to.  That competitive drive is what gets a lot of people over the hard part of many initially steep learning curves.

 

None of this I pulled out of thin air.  The whole deal about thinking that so-and-so "just isn't something Asians do" (actually phrased more along the lines of so-and-so "is something that white people/Americans do" (the "not us" part is implicit)) is something I hear firsthand in many different circumstances from many new immigrants, 1st-gen, and even some 2nd-gen East Asians to justify why they don't try at a particular something, or expect much from themselves when they do.  Like trying out for football, whatever.

 

This rationalization wouldn't be there with an Uncle Wong/Wayne in the family, down the street, whatever.  My point was that most Asians don't have that Uncle Wong/Wayne in the family.

 

In reference to your mindset-of-a-beginner-on-the-slopes:

 

Do you really think any adults are simply fearful, and failure to try (and learn) is simply fear aversion?  It's almost an insulting viewpoint you're attributing when you're talking about adults learning how to ski on beginner slopes.

 

(Aside:  note that fear/sensation aversion is not the same as failure aversion.  Most children are simply bad-sensation averse, such as fear.  Many adults are failure averse; they will do something that they know they won't like experiencing, or regret later, just so they don't fail in their own eyes and/or the eyes of others.  This of course is what gets people back into work on Mondays.  )

 

Of course nobody wants to fall.  Falling means failure and possibly injury (at least that is the precedent in their minds from non-snow activities).  Everyone is going "don't fall, don't fall, don't fall, don't fall...omg, I'm going too fast, I can't stop,  I'm gonna fall!!!"

 

Which means nothing, unless you're a child and falling is sooo scary.

 

What matters is what they're thinking after they fall.  That determines what they're going to do next: to go hopelessly through the motions again just because they're stuck in a class they paid for and somebody is yelling at them...  or be annoyed that they fell, and seriously look for some way to not fall the next time, whether that means adjusting their stance, holding their legs firmer, or whatever.  Because they know they could do better.

 

That is the Uncle Wong/Wayne difference.


Edited by DtEW - 4/6/2009 at 04:11 am
post #104 of 111

I just found this thread and I found it interesting none the least. Stats about myself: 100% South Korean. Adopted and raised here in the USA since I was 6 months old. My family is all white. My nickname is Twinkee......if you can not figure out that joke......then I have feel sorry for you.

 

I believe it is more about expereince and atheltic envovlement. My sports involvement includes running track, golf, baseball, soccer, and of course skiing. Now I atest my skiing ability to my sports background and atheltic ability.

 

I do not believe that Asians can be categorized as a certain skiing technique or style for teaching.

 

I also do and do not find this topic offensive. Thank god for you not saying Asain-Americans.......thats just a stupid political name that really grinds my gears. But, saying if you were to ask me "If I have ever chased a chicken before?" I may be slightly inclined to punch you in the face.......just an FYI if you are an instructor and you are taking that teaching approach you very well could lose your job over it. That is just my thoughts on this thread. But, otherwise continue on with the topic and I enjoyed it.

 

On a side note I am one of the strongest advocators against affirmative action and some of this so called "political correctness". But the chasing the chickens thing was a bit over the line in my book.

 

 

post #105 of 111

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ole703 View Post
...

On a side note I am one of the strongest advocators against affirmative action and some of this so called "political correctness". But the chasing the chickens thing was a bit over the line in my book.

Well dchan's post (the chicken chasing) is over 5 years old at this point...

However, I believe he was speaking from experience, either personal or familial or both. I don't know his background but I believe it's Chinese.

post #106 of 111

Well I guess I should respond now that you all seem to have your knickers in a bunch..

 

Disclaimer, YES I'm Asian, (Chinese and born here in the States). I have traveled to China and visited my home village and have seen how the farmers live and work.

 

The example was a very specific one. When ever I teach a lesson, beginner or otherwise, I create a partnership with the student or students. In the case mentioned above, I had a family of 4. 2 kids, first generation in the States, The parents (bless them for trying to enjoy a sport that the kids wanted to try) who were in their late 50's and obviously from China, and spoke very little English. The grand kids were in ski school as well. Big family outing.

 

As I talked to them I found that they were farmers and lived in the country before moving here. The mother had no sports background or activities in her past other than jacks, shuttle cocks, but as I talked to her, she did have to chase pigs and chickens for their family to have meat on the table from time to time.

 

The father played pingpong and did some martial arts when he didn't work in the fields.

 

The 2 kids (actually in their mid 20s) had lots of experience in various sports so getting them to perform certain movements was quite easy.

 

The point of the comment was that you need to take a persons experiences and use them to obtain a positive outcome. Stack the deck in your favor. The movement pattern is similar like a child chasing a dog to pet it, or a tennis player moving forward to intercept a ball. I could have spent all day trying to get the mother to lean forward but every time the skis started to move, she would sit back in fear. By putting her in the mindset of trying to chase something low to the ground, something she was familiar with, she learned to move forward and to the front of her boots without me trying to do anything else.

 

Trying to get the Dad to tip his feet so he could sidestep up the hill was also a huge chore until I remembered he played pingpong. I've seen the tables they use in China and at the community center where I played. I told him it's like trying to level the table using match books or popsicle sticks. shove them under one leg of the table and it levels out. Shove a stick under one edge of the ski and the ski tips. Shove the stick under the down hill side and "hey, Edge set!" 

 

If you can't see beyond the fact that people have different experiences and that we need to take advantage of what ever the experiences are to create a positive outcome, please don't judge.

 

 

 

post #107 of 111

Well that makes more sense and I misunderstood this thread. Interesting topic none the less.

post #108 of 111

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dustyfog View Post

 if I can do this, i know I am in heaven...


i am always happy to see a fellow snowsport enthusiast getting into it. if your excitment level is this high just for carving, wonder how you'd be like for other skiing styles.
 

whatever floats your boat man, have fun.....

 

post #109 of 111

There are at least two things that this video should illustrate:

 

1. The internet is a fascinating place.

2. Ski resorts in India are very different.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svrP6o0D6Uo

 

 

Added YouTube (T-Square)


Edited by T-Square - 4/19/2009 at 03:06 pm GMT
post #110 of 111

5ki8um,

 

I learned something from the youtube vid.  I've been teaching all wrong.  Put the boots onto the skis, then put the foot into the boots.  That must be the secret.

 

RW

post #111 of 111

 

Quote:

I learned something from the youtube vid.  I've been teaching all wrong.  Put the boots onto the skis, then put the foot into the boots.  That must be the secret.

Then save $$$ (and hassle) for not having to buy (and carry) a boot bag if you carry the boots in the skis.

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