Originally Posted by bud heishman
Let me ask you this guys, between the first and second photo, what would you say is the primary movement happening?
tdk: The primary move would be flexing her left outside leg. and inverting that foot and rotating the femur to release the edge! a key action!
Is it a weight shift with the upper body moving out over the new outside ski OR an edge release which shifts the dominance of pressure to the new ski?
tdk: There is offcourse no active weight transfer in the sence that the skier would be moving her upper body from over her left ski to over her right ski. That is just a way of compensating for the lack of turn forces when you wedge and you are a beginner. The skier is no beginner and she is not on a bunny hill. Active weight transfer turns into passive weight transfer once speed is up. The reason for weight transfer being active or passive is the same: establish outside ski pressure. This is a key piece to rethink here TDK6! There are turning forces in a wedge turn! Though less than the dynamic racing turn above, still enough to use in the same manner as this racer though with lower edge angles. There is no need to compensate for anything in a wedge turn. If you are not trying to overcome the deflection of the inside ski's edge angle, there is no need to compensate by moving your upper body out over the outside ski to create more deflection on that ski!!! simply release the inside edge grip and the weight dominance instantly shifts to the outside ski.
or are they happening in unison?
tdk: There is no need for active weight transfer in this situation. Exactly, just as there is no need for an active shift in a wedge turn!!!! provided you release the edge of the inside ski!
Is the weight shift occurring because the downhill ski platform was released or because the skier made an active move to shift the weight to the right ski? or are they occurring in a coordinated effort?
tdk: For simplicity I would say that the shift in weight occoured due to the relese of the outside ski. BINGO! why not teach this from the beginning?
Is the com. moving fluidly down the fall line?
tdk: I would say that the orange line describing the CoM flow down the hill looks pritty fluid. The most fluid would be a straight line. In the vertical plane she would have had to bend deeper through out the transition. In the horisontal plane she would have had to reach out further with her legs. Then we have the time aspect. How fast can you transit from left to right? Or flex and extend? What are your body limitations? What are the equipment limitations? What are the body range limitations? How tiring are the movements? How fit are you? We can also ask ourselves if a little more extention through out the transition would have been a bad thing?
Are the ski continuing to turn to the right while the "butt" is moving toward the inside of the new turn?
(ie: "twist n tip", feet turning right while tipping left which is biomechanically exactly the way the foot and ankle work together in these two planes). note: don't confuse my use of "twist" to mean pivot or skid because this is not what is meant. The twist is changing edges from one ski's side cut to the other side cut and understanding they are NOT parallel angles, so to change fluidly and keep the groove etched in the snow one continuous track there must be a slight twist as the edges change. The twist is in the opposite direction of a pivot. But I digress....
tdk: Not sure I follow you here. When I sit here in my office chair and try to simulate a retraction transition by sliding my chair sideways and letting my feet remain on the floor but simulate a turning path of the skis there is a "twisting" kind of "appearance" of my feet relative to my knees. Yes. And in the opposite direction. Im not very familiar with this 3D model but the more you are driving your knees early into the turn the more enhanced this "twisting" is. Actually the last part of the turn that takes you into the transition should be made by pointing your knees in the old direction to lessen this effect. Im I correct? Then as your hips pass over the skis your knees are set up in such way that you can start cranking them arround in the other direction. Sometimes the only thing you do is crank your knees from side to side. Tight passages. In the montage up for observation it was not possible. She had to move her CoM both up and sideways. Try lifting your foot out in front of you and everting or inverting it and notice the slight twist occurring. Now imagine this movement inside your ski boots. When we invert the foot twists or adducts inside, when we evert the foot it abducts or twists slightly to the outside. Now imagine what is happening inside the skier's boots in the photo montage above as the com passing over the feet!
Do you see an action of the hips countering in the top half of the turn OR do you see the skis catching up to the hips then passing them (skiing out of then into counter)?
tdk: No and Yes. Hips counter in top half: NO. Skis catching up and passing them: YES. She is skiing in and out of counter and anticipation.
Can you see the angulation happening in the last two thirds of the turn rather than the top third?
What would you estimate the weight distribution to be between right and left skis in photo two?
tdk: hard to tell but just prior to frame 2 there was maybe no weight on the outside left ski. But deffinetly more weight on the right ski.
and how did it get there?
tdk: By flexing her outside left leg.
Visualize this same action at beginner speeds in a wedge turn and consider the gliding wedge turn mechanics vs. the classic active weight shift wedge turn, and compare and contrast the similarities and/or differences. Is the inside ski flat or still on an inside edge when the dominance of the pressure is on the outside ski?
tdk: This is a classic case of weighting pros and cons of two methods or systems. IMO there is nothing to unlearn in the active weight transfer method. The big difference as I see it is that in every great gliding wedge demo I have seen posted from you guys the turn fuels on active weight transfer. Its there. You mask it well and maybe sometimes even do it unconsious. Simply relesing the outside ski edge requires very specific conditions. A flat, smooth, undcrowded hill. Speed. And staying close to the fall line. You also encounter the danger of fueling your turns with rotation and its prone to banking. With the active weight transfer method all that can be dissmissed. Not saying it would not work. Just it never worked for me. And I primarily have students these days that are children participating in jr coaching and they need to be able to carve down race courses. Not ski parallel.
No need to answer these questions in a post, rather try to see and understand a different point of view from your own and perhaps consider the merit in it!
tdk: Answered your questions. I thaught it was informative for me. Maybe for others as well. I respect your point of view and its nice to be able to dissagree in a non hostile manner. Im confident due to my experiance over the years with fellow instructors, coaches and ski schools. Every instructor and school has its own twist on things. I think that is a good thing. Hate to see everyone dooing the exact same thing. Only way we can evolve is by changing. Sometimes it invloves a change and then a change back. The experiance is what is valuable. Last year we had an old man teaching some adult granchild in accordance with how skiing was thaught in the 40s and 50s (gross assumption from looking at black and white film from that era and reading some books). Every instructor was laughing. I was not. I thaught it was fascinating. Many things about it was fascinating. Above all that the old man was still able to ski and had the passion to teach. Was the student thaught stuff that she would have to unlearn? Most possibly but one thing that I have learned over the years is that for the most part you cannot save the world or be responsible for every human being. Let it go. Free yourself of that kind of burden. Do what you are payed for. Or just have fun.
Honestly, if you and I didn't have this debate over and over there wouldn't be much to talk about here for me! If we all agreed, why post? Besides, I know I am right!