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How Do You Check If The Plate Is In The Right Spot?

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 

I have two pairs of skis that I sort of came into:

 

Head Full Metal Jacket WC - Cheater GS Ski

2001

19M TR

180cm

Race Plate

Look TT9 Binding

 

Elan SLX

2002

155cm

11.5M TR

Vist (Elan) Race Plate

Salomon Bindings

 

It ends up that after talking to the shop about bindings for the Heads, they've convinced me to let those skis stay in retirement. So I will.  The Elan's however weren't used much and have been sitting in a garage for years and are in pretty good shape.  I was originally buying them to get the bindings to put on the Heads.

 

What I noticed about both skis, that were originally purchased from different shops, is that if you go through the process of determining Center Running Surface (CRS) and mark it, the Head's bindings place the boots BOF 2 cm behind CRS and the Elan's Salomon's were mounted so the BOF would be at least 2.5 cm IN FRONT of CRS.

 

The boot center mark comes close to lining up with the boot center mark on both race plates.  So my question is, how do you determine the location for a race plate for a particular ski?  Strictly where ever the manufacture states?  I believe the race plate stays the same size but skis varies in length so the simplest of ways (I think) would be to get the Manf center mark on the ski and race plate to match up.

 

Did Elan really want the 2002 vintage SLX that far forward?  During a time when everyone is mounting so far back?

 

Thanks,

Ken

 

Edited for clarity - need to stop posting before my morning coffee.


Edited by L&AirC - 8/15/10 at 7:32am
post #2 of 15


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post

Did Elan really want the 2002 vintage SLX that far forward?  During a time when everyone is mounting so far back?

 

Thanks,

Ken


 

I think the primary consideration here is "this is a slalom ski", beating out both design era and manufacturer vs. manufacturer differences.      I can easily see that mounting forward could be advantageous for something that is to be skied with an upright stance while at the same time requiring very strong, very active control of tip engagement pressure.

 

Somewhere on this forum there was a discussion of how comparable forward mount is functionally to under-toepiece lift.  

 

If I manage to overcome my senility long enough, I'll see if I can find it.

 

Either way, if we assume the concept of "The flex point of a plate is designed to be directly under the boot" as a given,  your question reduces to "Where do I mount the binding"?

post #3 of 15
Thread Starter 

I did find old Reviews of the Elan SLX skis on the internet (2003&2004) and the tester stated that you had to stay centered over the ski or it would dig in too much.  That sort of supports the race plate and bindings being very forward.

post #4 of 15

I see this as  one example where the boot choice during the test of even very good testers could make a big difference in the test outcome.

post #5 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex View Post


a) I can easily see that mounting forward could be advantageous for something that is to be skied with an upright stance while at the same time requiring very strong, very active control of tip engagement pressure.

 

b) Either way, if we assume the concept of "The flex point of a plate is designed to be directly under the boot" as a given,  your question reduces to "Where do I mount the binding"?



a) I agree and think this is also supported by people recommending (in old epic threads) SLX skis in 165 so you can use it for more things than SL skiing.  I read comments on how the 155 wasn't as stable at speed or in larger turns (at speed).

 

I asked the shop to remount the bindings using BOF on CRS.  This way (in Ken's head) I'll achieve the versatility of the 165cm ski.  I want the ski mainly for playing around and practicing so by moving the binding position back (I will still have the option to move it towards its original location and a couple others) the ski shouldn't be as twitching and I should be able to ski it the same way I would ski an all mountain ski.

 

b) I'm still curious how to determine if the plate was mounted where the manufacturer wanted it mounted.

post #6 of 15

It would seem to me that you would want to mount the plate such that wherever you choose to mount your your binding on the ski, the center of boot mark is at the center of the plate. You are in the end mounting the binding relative to the ski, not the plate.

 

If your plate is designed to permit the ski to flex, then it should matter very little whether the plate is a little forward or back as it is designed to not interfere with the ski flex. It would probably come down to mouting the plate and binding with consideration for holes in the plate, mounting points in the plate and where you want the binding to end up.

 

I have Fischer RC4s that came with the plates already mounted. I was forced to choose a forward or backward position of the binding on one pair because the binding screws conflicted with the plate mounting screws for the desired binding position. I started with the bindings back as they were SGs but found they needed to go forward after having difficulty getting them to perform as desired.

 

post #7 of 15
Thread Starter 

Maybe another way to ask is:

 

If shop A mounts the plate and you then go to shop B to mount the bindings, how does shop B know the plate was mounted in the correct place?   Shop B is going to use the boot center mark on the top of the plate for mounting the bindings.  What if shop A didn't do such a good job?  The boot center mark on the ski is covered by the plate.

 

post #8 of 15

Shop B would be wrong to use the center of boot mark on the plate. The binding should be mounted in relation to the ski, not the plate.

post #9 of 15
Thread Starter 

That's my dilemma.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post

Shop B would be wrong to use the center of boot mark on the plate. The binding should be mounted in relation to the ski, not the plate.


If the marks on the ski are covered by the plate, how does shop B know where to place the binding with regards to the ski?  I think they have to assume that shop A mounted the plate to align both the ski's and plate's boot center mark.

 

I'm having the bindings for these skis mounted BOF on CRS.  Everything I read on the skis sounds like Elan intentionally moved the binding position forward to make them twitchy.  That is strictly based on my interpretation of what I've read so I could be completely wrong.

 

Ken
 

post #10 of 15

Shop B should A) measure the ski, b) check with the manufacturer or C) post on Epic to see what the preferred location is.  

 

My point is that where the plate is isn't the issue (within reason) but where the binding ends up on the ski. If the ski's marks are covered, uncover them.

post #11 of 15

my only comments would be these:

 

MastersRacer is correct in stating that we are mounting the Binding or actually the boot in relation to the ski and not the plate.  We diverge here however. 

 

Much testing is done with plate position relative to the same boot position as the plate is not really flex neutral and in fact has a huge effect on where the pressure is applied and how quickly the pressure ramps up in the arc.There is much testing as well as to the direction of movement of the plate or does it stay fixed in the middle.  Some current thoughts are to have the plate fixed at the back and so in effect it allows the boot to move forward as the ski bends.

 

Also consider the binding heel piece- if the binding baseplate is mounted further back and then the housing moved forward on the forward pressure track  the baseplate is less underfootand  the effect is quite different than mounting the baseplate as far underfoot as possible and again with the forward pressure track moving the housing back thus creating a smaller footprint on the ski.  a strong recomendation for smaller boots and lighter skiers.

 

The real spot on the ski for the boot is relative to the agressivness of the skier and the desired turnshape.

post #12 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post

 or C) post on Epic to see what the preferred location is.  

 

 

I guess shops must know how to word questions better than I do.  I even highlighted it in the original post copy and pasted below:

 

"So my question is, how do you determine the location for a race plate for a particular ski?   "

 

Uncovering the marks by removing the race plate that very well might be in the correct place seems excessive.  Especially the ones that are epoxied on.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sandy Webster View Post

my only comments would be these:

 

MastersRacer is correct in stating that we are mounting the Binding or actually the boot in relation to the ski and not the plate.  We diverge here however. 

 

Much testing is done with plate position relative to the same boot position as the plate is not really flex neutral and in fact has a huge effect on where the pressure is applied and how quickly the pressure ramps up in the arc.There is much testing as well as to the direction of movement of the plate or does it stay fixed in the middle.  Some current thoughts are to have the plate fixed at the back and so in effect it allows the boot to move forward as the ski bends.

 

Also consider the binding heel piece- if the binding baseplate is mounted further back and then the housing moved forward on the forward pressure track  the baseplate is less underfootand  the effect is quite different than mounting the baseplate as far underfoot as possible and again with the forward pressure track moving the housing back thus creating a smaller footprint on the ski.  a strong recomendation for smaller boots and lighter skiers.

 

The real spot on the ski for the boot is relative to the agressivness of the skier and the desired turnshape.


Sandy,

 

I find this very  interesting. 
 

post #13 of 15

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post

That's my dilemma.
 


If the marks on the ski are covered by the plate, how does shop B know where to place the binding with regards to the ski?  I think they have to assume that shop A mounted the plate to align both the ski's and plate's boot center mark.

 

I'm having the bindings for these skis mounted BOF on CRS.  Everything I read on the skis sounds like Elan intentionally moved the binding position forward to make them twitchy.  That is strictly based on my interpretation of what I've read so I could be completely wrong.

 

Ken
 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post

Shop B should A) measure the ski, b) check with the manufacturer or C) post on Epic to see what the preferred location is.  

 

My point is that where the plate is isn't the issue (within reason) but where the binding ends up on the ski. If the ski's marks are covered, uncover them.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post

 or C) post on Epic to see what the preferred location is.  

 

  

I guess shops must know how to word questions better than I do.  I even highlighted it in the original post copy and pasted below:

 

"So my question is, how do you determine the location for a race plate for a particular ski?   "

 

Uncovering the marks by removing the race plate that very well might be in the correct place seems excessive.  Especially the ones that are epoxied on.

 

Quote:


Sandy,

 

I find this very  interesting. 
 


My A), B) C) reply was directed at your hypothetical scenario of shop A and B, although option C), which you have undertaken with your OP, was suggested in earnest. Plenty of shop owners and techs here could address the question. PP, where are you?

 

SW makes a good point and surely plate placement will affect the ski. How much depends a lot on the plate. Most of mine (Vist plate factory installed on '02 Fischer RC4s race skis) are two piece arrangements so the pressure applied by the toe piece isn't transferred to the back half and vice versa. Atomic and other plates are one unit so pressure at any point is transerred to some degree along the whole plate.
 

I think that the plate should be mounted so that it provides the greatest lattitude to mount the bindings forward, aft or centered. A one cm change in binding location will have far more significant impact on the ski's performance than one cm change in plate location. The Atomic race plate, for instance, permits a 5 cm range of binding location while maintaining a single plate location.

 

L&AirC, you are 'having the bindings for these skis mounted BOF on CRS'. Determining CRS doesn't require seeing the manufacturer's COB mark on the ski. If the bindings fit on the plate in that position, then I'd say the plates are mounted properly.

post #14 of 15
Thread Starter 

MastersRacer,

 

I appreciate your patience and deligence with me.  I know there are lots of people/shops that provide a great service here which is why I asked here.

 

I was originally trying to figure out how plate placement is determined.  Not the effects of it, not if it has a lesser or greater effect than binding placement or how it should be mounted.  Originally I was concerned that when the plates were mounted a few years ago, they were placed too far forward because the BOF was ahead of CRS.  Usually it is the other way around. 

 

From further reading and some posts in this thread, I've jumped to the conclusion that Elan (and possibly others) intentionally set things in place so the plate and therefore binding are placed so the BOF will be ahead of CRS.  That explains why they are twitchy but lack stability at speed while free skiing (read in reviews).

 

My bindings are mounted BOF over CRS and I'm happy with that.  I'm not overly concerned (anymore) with the placement of the plate and will go forward assuming that the shop either a) line up the boot center marks b) have a jig/template c) figure out where the boot goes on the ski and then slide the plate under that and d) when it comes to remounting bindings some assume the plate's boot center mark is in the right place (over the ski's boot center mark.

 

Most shops do NOT believe in BOF over CRS and will usually just mount the boot center mark to the ski's OR plate's boot center mark.

 

Thanks,

Ken

post #15 of 15

Ken

 

I normally start with mounting the center line of the plate on the boot center mark on the ski where it is a connected plate.  With the Fischer 2 piece plate if mounting on a non-fischer  I usually try to use a similar approach with it symmetrical either side of the center mark.

 

I then just play about with different mount positions on the plate.   As SW says i am sure in extremis that there will be differences in performance with moving the plate position but I don't claim to be good enough to detect that although I do see big differences with binding position.  I have found that i consistently  like to be 0.5-1 inch ahead of center.  I also have a small (24.0)  boot size which i suspect also factors into this in getting the ball of foot forward.

 

One of the huge benefits of a decent plate is that you can safely play about with multiple mounting positions without impacting the integrity of the ski.  Worth getting your fitter to drill a few sets when he has the jig on them.  I haven't used the Elan SlX but I do know that on the Elan race stock GS with teh elan plate, i have ended up about 1.5 inches forward on both the 182 and 188 for best performance.  i recall Muleski had also talked about similar experiences when his son was on Elan.

 

 

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