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How to decrease friction with boot/binding interface

post #1 of 12
Thread Starter 

Friends, 

A buddy and I mounted my new hart Phoenix's and Pulses's with VIST plates and their standard 614 binding. The toe piece height is not adjustable. When you put the boot into the toe it visibly moves up  -  the function of some sort of spring device. I am fine with that. But it seems to me that having some additional friction-resistent material, like Teflon, on the boot sole may assist in a lateral release. There is already one of those plates with some sort of non-stick white material just behind the binding toe piece. Suggestions?

Thanks,

David

post #2 of 12

FWIW,

 

I dont know those bindings specifically or how well you did your "home mount", but generally:

 

If you think it looks wrong...it probably is.  Check the forward pressure, that could be too high, thus you are sensing the toe is taking too much pressure to release.  Ensure your forward pressure is correct.

 

 

Further:

 

That white plate under the toe lug is teflon.  Teflon or rollers are used on the toe peice itself.  Hence you shouldnt need it on the boot.

 

The best thing to do is to ensure your bindings are well maintained.  In reality an annual grease is all that is needed.  The worst thing you can do to bindings is travel to and from the hill with your skis on the car roof and no protection over the bindings.  Salt gets in there.

 

Bindings are actually pretty sophisticated, and any modifications you do is likely to hamper not improve their performance.  If you add teflon to the toe lug, you will need to shave the lug down an corresponding amount first, so overall your thickness stays constant.

 

If you are really that concerned about binding release...and it is a valid concern...why not fork out the cash and just get good bindings...and get them properly mounted.  An extra $100 or even an extra $1000 is very very cheap compared to blowing out your knees or breaking a leg.  I still shake my head at people who spend big cash on high end skis, and boots, then try to get the cheapest bindings money can buy. 

 

Having said that....bindings are really designed to prevent leg fractures, and still have a ways to go to be a reliable way to prevent knee injuries...but having said that, some bindings are better then others....diagonal release to help with backward twisting falls while not perfect is better then nothing in my view.

post #3 of 12

keep boot lugs and bindings clean

post #4 of 12
Thread Starter 

Skidude,

 

Appreciate your thoughts. If your interest in bindings is more than casual, as you suggest, may I suggest that you familiarize yourself with the VIST system, the quality of the product and the manner in which the it is attached to the ski. Skiers familiar with the most sophisticated gear on the market know the VIST plates, which often come attached to top end skis. The plate/binding system is quite clever and beautifully made, to my eye. Not exactly the junk you intimate in your post. 

 

You will discover that the VIST plates are affixed to the ski, which we did by hand, using the provided template. Measured to insure the proper mounting mark, then marked with a punch to provide a "crater" for the drill bit. Then drilled to proper depth and hand tapped to insure correct vertical fixture entry. All attachments completed by hand so as not to strip out hole, particularly with the Pulses which have no metal top sheet. Less of a concern with the Phoenix which do. Once the plates are mounted, the bindings attach to the plates with a clever locking mechanism incorporated into the TT plate. Very secure.

 

Contrary to your assumption, the bindings are not mounted to the ski, but to the plates. The toe and heel pieces can be removed quickly and attached to a plate on another ski. For this reason alone, your intimation that the bindings were improperly mounted is quite misplaced, because they are not mounted at all. If you re-read my post, I do not question the pressure of the toe piece or the manner in which it functions on the plate. I asked a generic question about material that might be used on a boot sole, like Teflon tape, to reduce friction.   

 

While I will assume that your intentions were well-meaning, your tone is condescending particularly in light of your acknowledged unfamiliarity with the VIST system or the mounting process. Should you continue to believe that I should "fork out the cash and just get good bindings," you may wish to contact Philpug, a frequent poster and ski seller/industry rep regarding VIST products. I bought the bindings and plates from him.

David 

post #5 of 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by deliberate1 View Post

Skidude,

 

Appreciate your thoughts. If your interest in bindings is more than casual, as you suggest, may I suggest that you familiarize yourself with the VIST system, the quality of the product and the manner in which the it is attached to the ski. Skiers familiar with the most sophisticated gear on the market know the VIST plates, which often come attached to top end skis. The plate/binding system is quite clever and beautifully made, to my eye. Not exactly the junk you intimate in your post. 

 

You will discover that the VIST plates are affixed to the ski, which we did by hand, using the provided template. Measured to insure the proper mounting mark, then marked with a punch to provide a "crater" for the drill bit. Then drilled to proper depth and hand tapped to insure correct vertical fixture entry. All attachments completed by hand so as not to strip out hole, particularly with the Pulses which have no metal top sheet. Less of a concern with the Phoenix which do. Once the plates are mounted, the bindings attach to the plates with a clever locking mechanism incorporated into the TT plate. Very secure.

 

Contrary to your assumption, the bindings are not mounted to the ski, but to the plates. The toe and heel pieces can be removed quickly and attached to a plate on another ski. For this reason alone, your intimation that the bindings were improperly mounted is quite misplaced, because they are not mounted at all. If you re-read my post, I do not question the pressure of the toe piece or the manner in which it functions on the plate. I asked a generic question about material that might be used on a boot sole, like Teflon tape, to reduce friction.   

 

While I will assume that your intentions were well-meaning, your tone is condescending particularly in light of your acknowledged unfamiliarity with the VIST system or the mounting process. Should you continue to believe that I should "fork out the cash and just get good bindings," you may wish to contact Philpug, a frequent poster and ski seller/industry rep regarding VIST products. I bought the bindings and plates from him.

David 


Mate, I am not here to get into a shitfight with you.

 

If you were just asking generally about reducing friction at the boot/binding interface then what binding you use is irrlevant.  What plate you use is also irrelevant.  The fact you emphasised your new VIST system and home mount, it seemed to me, that was the source of your concern.  I assumed the toe was not releasing the way you felt it should.
 

Also just FYI:

 

I am not sure where I implied the binding was mounted to the ski...but either way I dont see how that matters.  Whether the binding is mounted to the plate or to a ski will have no effect on forward pressure.  The exact mechanism to attach the binding to the plate also doesnt matter.  So I dont know why you are going into that detail.

 

 

Finally:

 

Never suggested VIST was junk...I have no opinion on your set up either way as I have personally never used it.  Just pointed out if you are concerned, then maybe get a binding that alleviates your concern rather then trying to "jimmy" somthing. 

 

PS: Make sure you sealed the holes into the skis or else water will get in and rot the core.

 

PSS: If you dont know how to check the forward pressure send Phil a pm, I am sure he could explain it to you...it is generally pretty easy.

 

 

PSSS:  If you want to keep the boot/binding interface working, keep the teflon strip on the binding in good nick..as said above keep it clean and free of major nicks.  Same with the boots, if you get a major ding in the bottom of the boots such as happens if you step on a stone or such, just sand the high spots back to flat.


Edited by Skidude72 - 8/15/10 at 12:20am
post #6 of 12
Thread Starter 

No worries. Just needed to clear the air.

Good suggestion about sealing the holes. That we did not do.

Happy trails,

David
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post




Mate, I am not here to get into a shitfight with you.

 

If you were just asking generally about reducing friction at the boot/binding interface then what binding you use is irrlevant.  What plate you use is also irrelevant.  The fact you emphasised your new VIST system and home mount, it seemed to me, that was the source of your concern.  I assumed the toe was not releasing the way you felt it should.
 

Also just FYI:

 

I am not sure where I implied the binding was mounted to the ski...but either way I dont see how that matters.  Whether the binding is mounted to the plate or to a ski will have no effect on forward pressure.  The exact mechanism to attach the binding to the plate also doesnt matter.  So I dont know why you are going into that detail.

 

 

Finally:

 

Never suggested VIST was junk...I have no opinion on your set up either way as I have personally never used it.  Just pointed out if you are concerned, then maybe get a binding that alleviates your concern rather then trying to "jimmy" somthing. 

 

PS: Make sure you sealed the holes into the skis or else water will get in and rot the core.

 

PSS: If you dont know how to check the forward pressure send Phil a pm, I am sure he could explain it to you...it is generally pretty easy.

 

 

PSSS:  If you want to keep the boot/binding interface working, keep the teflon strip on the binding in good nick..as said above keep it clean and free of major nicks.  Same with the boots, if you get a major ding in the bottom of the boots such as happens if you step on a stone or such, just sand the high spots back to flat.

post #7 of 12

When sealing the holes avoid epoxy. It is hard to remove screws that have had epoxy and some cores will be 'eaten' by epoxy. I use carpenter's glue.

 

A major reason that ski racers use cat tracks is to protect the sole of the boot from grit that will cause unpredictable release. It also protects the expensive canting that may have been done to the boot.

post #8 of 12

You have a good shop up there, IIRC, Happy Tunes? Wouldn't be the worst idea to bring the skis over to get the bindings calibrated at least for the piece of mind. 

 

For those who haven't seen a Vist binding (or are not that familiar with them), just take a look at any Nordica system ski from the past two seasons, they are using Vist bindings, which coincidentally were originally a Nordica designed binding. 

post #9 of 12

Delibrate1 brings up a very interesting point, which goes beyond just VIST bindings!

After becoming aware of this issue, I tested other automatic regulating bindings which have no manual adjustment screw Rossignol race, Atomic NEOX, Head race just to name a few!

I repeated the same manual test,that is taking a standard .5mm feeler gauge from Salomon and found the same result! That is the downward pressure from the front toe units were "according to feeler gauge" was too much ( according to all ski binding companies)! If these were manual adjusted units, I would have backed off screw to allow more play, thus less static pressure on lower plate!

 

What Delibrate1 point has highlighted is that manual adjusted toe units and automatic adjusted units must be tested differently! The older units do not have any vertical travel (or give) thus less pressure is tolerated on pressure plate!

The more modern units which adjust automatically , VIST is in this group, allow not only lateral motion,,but also vertical motion via this cam mechanism! Thus initial feel of pressures seems high, but there is a safety "valve" built in these units! This is clearly indicated on page 2 of the VIST binding and plate manual entitled "We Bring The Future Into Your World"!

Another reason why all skiers should listen to Philplug's suggestion to have a "dynamic test" done at least once a year!

 

To drive this point home may I share with you an experience!

At Stowe all ski patrollers,  ski instructors, in short all staff have their bindings tested for release in a "dynamic machine"!

Guess how many "fail" the test!!!! These are professional skiers, who ski all day,,everyday!

Thank you Delibrate 1 for that post!

Simple questions often reveal complex issues!

post #10 of 12

Delibrate 1,

If you still are not sure about this "vertical give", just take out your VIST front units, turn them upside down and look at the inner mechanism! You will see two small springs that are the heart of this "vertical" play!  Just above these, you have one large horizontal spring which is vital unit for lateral release! This is the spring that sets your DIN value!

 

I hope this will make your mind at ease skiing on those VIST units! Now if only you had VIST skis also,,to go with the bindings!

 

Happy skiing!

post #11 of 12
Thread Starter 


Phil,

Is this "calibration" something different from a typical release check?

Happy Tunes is top notch. Lionel did some great work on my boots and fit me with Aline's. 

David

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post

You have a good shop up there, IIRC, Happy Tunes? Wouldn't be the worst idea to bring the skis over to get the bindings calibrated at least for the piece of mind. 

 

 

post #12 of 12
Thread Starter 

Vistman, the harts, as you well know, are sooo much better.....
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vistman View Post

I hope this will make your mind at ease skiing on those VIST units! Now if only you had VIST skis also,,to go with the bindings!

 

Happy skiing!

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