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Certification Fear and Loathing - Page 2

post #31 of 45
KeeTov - too true.

One of my instructors failed one element last year - when I quized him about this(something he is usually pretty good at) he came out with the comment that no matter how/why/when/where etc

IF he could do it REALLY well then NO-ONE would have been able to find something to fail.
'I simply didn't ski well enough on the day'

He enjoys training anyway so he is happy to resit the exam. (This dill won a level 3 exam race skiing with a broken leg - he says the pain was 'short duration' - so bearable)
post #32 of 45
Ok bit of a lingo thing here I think, could someone please inform me what linked hockey slides are?
Thanks (somehow I feel like I am always questioning people, perhaps I should become a policeman!)
post #33 of 45
Loke - A pivot slip is going from a side slip one direction to a side slip in the opposite direction with NO hesitation at the fall line. Linked side slips or "hockey slides" allow for a slight hesitation at the fall line. I assume you understand a side slip? (Slipping down the fall line with your ski across the fall line)

[ July 31, 2002, 04:58 AM: Message edited by: John Cole ]
post #34 of 45
Loke--try this link to another recent thread discussing pivot slips and hockey slides:

PS vs HS

Don't hesitate to ask more questions if it still isn't clear. Welcome to EpicSki!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #35 of 45
Just to add a bit of language differences:
Hockey = Ice Hockey, not hockey as we know it (field hockey)

Hope this helps!

post #36 of 45
Originally posted by Rusty Guy:
whtmt- Minor point, however, the young lady in question was in a level II exam. In PSIA-RM linked hockey slides are a level II maneuver as opposed to pivot slips which are done in the level III exam.

Great Post!
Rusty Guy: Thanks for the correction.

post #37 of 45
Hey WhtMt,

I'm a LIII at Waterville. Reading some of these posts from guys in RM it seems they have a "trainers accreditation" level that is above LIII but not an examiner level.

Do you know if we have that in PSIA-E? What options are there for a LIII in the east who wants to get into the training end of things but doesn't aspire to be an examiner?

post #38 of 45
Rocky Mountain has a Level 4. As I understand it, the standards are the same as DCL. The difference is that DCLs are employees of the Division, while Level 4 is just a certification level. We have only DCLs in the East, and I don't think any divisions recognize anything above Level 3(DCL, Examiner, Level 4)from other divisions.
post #39 of 45
Trainer's Accred is commonly refered to as level IV "outside" the division....but it is just an Accredidation that requires level III cert (and various other criteria). It is just like it sounds a Training Accredidation and is just like an exam. The pass rate is extremely low...the talent usually extremely high. The TA people represent the pool from which interviews maybe offered when DCL slots become available (which is not a "cert level" but a job. So most of what you have said is correct...just not the level 4 stuff...ain't gone there yet!
RM like the east, has various "accredidations" available to different levels of cert criteria. Seniors, Children (tough too), Freestyle, Pipes and Parks (Dogger says soon for skiing too) etc. You get a nifty little retro pin (shaped like the old RMSIA pin) and the undying admiration of your peers.
Bob B. will have to correct any mistakes I have made....been gone from the RM for a while...tho still a member.
I love the system...instead of allowing the regular cert process to go off on tangental vectors...it allows lateral learning and specialization and recognition without bastardizing the pure, traditional pathways.
post #40 of 45
Hi WVSkier--

We don't "officially" have a level 4 in the Rockies, but we have what we call "Trainer Accredited." It is a significant step beyond Level 3 (Full Certification) in its skiing and teaching demands, and it definitely emphasizes the unique requirements of training instructors. But we do not, currently, call it "Level 4," and as John D. says, it is not recognized nationally.

Our Trainer Accreditation came about as a way to inspire and validate training and accomplishment well beyond Level 3. Prior to TA, if you wanted recognition for "the next level," you had to become a DCL (Divisional Clinic Leader) and work for the Division. But there were far more qualified candidates than job openings, so many who were "at the level" nevertheless failed the "exam"--which was really a selection process.

TA is an true exam, not a selection. Because it simply recognizes a level of accomplishment and skill, there is no restriction on the number of TA's who can pass. In theory, it recognizes the same standard of skiing and teaching required for DCL, and the original concept called for DCL's to be selected by interview from the TA pool, as needed. As it turned out, we still have a rigorous on-snow selection process for DCL. And another for Apprentice Examiner, once you have served as a DCL for a while.

Like many divisions and National too, we are currently debating the wisdom of developing an official, actual "Level 4." It is an incredibly political issue--many current Level 3's would suddenly find themselves no longer at "the top"--for better, or for worse. While I suspect most of those who would complain are the ones who have decided that they no longer need to continue to learn, once they reach Level 3 (an attitude I despise), I can appreciate their concern, too.

My feeling is that we should return to ONE single level that we identify as "Certified." This level must represent the minimum standard that we are comfortable promoting as a consistently high-quality "product" to the public. We can--and should--continue to recognize intermediate steps along the way to that standard, and we must recognize that it doesn't stop there, and provide opportunities and recognition for endless continued education. But we have caused so many problems and so much confusion among the public with our complex "Level 1-2-3"--and beyond--certification that it serves little useful purpose.

As John D has explained, PSIA National has defined standards for Level 1, 2, and 3 certification, and the pins are transferrable between divisions. Beyond Level 3, every division does its own thing, although "Examiner" is universal (if not standardized). "Examiner" has traditionally transferred from one division to another, too, although that is changing. In Rocky Mountain, examiners transferring in must attend our Apprentice Examiner selection. If successful, they become Apprentice Examiners, who must observe exams, deliver several clinics, and then be approved by the Alpine Committee before being accepted as full Examiners. If they FAIL the Apprentice Examiner selection, they get Trainer Accredited status, and must then go through the DCL selection, and so on, to become examiners.

It's not easy, any more, to transfer in to Rocky Mountain!

By-the-way, WVSkier--that was a great article you wrote about your exam experience and suggestions in the PSIA-E newsletter. I've been meaning to congratulate you on that--as well as on your success in the exam! There are a few things that you guys do differently in your exams that I like--we may incorporporate some of them in Rocky Mountain. Thanks!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

PS--I've also been meaning to ask you--how DID you deal with those conflicting student needs in that hypothetical exam lesson?
post #41 of 45
Hi Robin--

I apologize--I was writing my reply above as you posted yours--didn't mean to simply repeat what you said.

You have described it accurately, although the Alpine Committee is very actively reviewing our entire education and certification system this summer, under the new committee chair, Jerry Berg. We are exploring the "Master Teacher" program that they have developed in the East, and will undoubtedly develop something along its lines. And we are considering "Level 4," like I said. We are looking at swinging the pendulum back a bit to mulitiple-examiner formats for exams, at least at Level 3. And we're exploring opportunities for incorporating video and other technologies as well, all to make the process more relevant, user friendly, and more consistent. We're very open to suggestions....

Robin--I hear through the grapevine that you may be in Colorado shortly. Please drop me a line, if you get a chance....

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #42 of 45
Hi Bob! Looks like a case of syncro-typing! The other accred's I have heard banged about included a First Timers/ Growth Model/ Retention accred....interesting. The level 4 thingee is back eh? I do like the east's approach to Master Teacher....I really want to start a second row of pins like Idi Amin!! NOT!
I have been travelling alot....I will PM you!
post #43 of 45
Hey Bob...time for some house cleaning...your PM Box is full....I will try again later! Robin
post #44 of 45
Arrrg...dbl post!

[ August 01, 2002, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: Robin ]
post #45 of 45
Sorry Robin--should be room now--please try again.

Yes, we've added several special accreditation opportunities in Rocky Mountain--children's accreditation, seniors accreditation, trainer accreditation, and the very poorly named "new skier retention accredition" last season (sounds like something a laxative could cure...). This last one is likely to become the foundation for our revised Level 1 "exam" soon. It will be more of a clinic than an exam, which is as it should be, in my opinion.

Talk to you soon....

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

[ August 01, 2002, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: Bob Barnes/Colorado ]
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