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Expert skiing - Page 4

post #91 of 163

This thread should be open to all banned posters.

post #92 of 163

So what is an expert? I keep reading all the nonsense about world class competitors being the only experts. If that's your opinion and you're not a top world cup level skier, I wonder why you would feel qualified to offer an "expert" opinion in the first place? 

Before any of you flame out, stop and reflect on what I am saying. I think we all would agree that expertise grows with experience and education. So no one standard exist. Being an expert level recreational skier doesn't imply you need to be a world cup level skier. I'm not sure why that idea even came up in this thread. Maybe it was when VSP quoted the long dead catch phrase "all terrain-all conditions" PSIA used so many years ago. "All but the most extreme terrain and conditions" is the current language from our manuals. Which IMO is a more accurate desccription of the level three standard. It's also closer to the commonly used description of what constitutes an expert recreational skier level. Reletive to the OP's original question I would say these definitions make more sense than all the over the top ones being offered by the elitists who don't want to share that "expert" monikor with more than a few of their peers.


Edited by justanotherskipro - 8/6/10 at 3:01pm
post #93 of 163


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

So what is an expert? I keep reading all the nonsense about world class competitors being the only experts. If that's your opinion and you're not a top world cup level skier, I wonder why you would feel qualified to offer an "expert" opinion in the first place? 

Before any of you flame out, stop and reflect on what I am saying. I think we all would agree that expertise grows with experience and education. So no one standard exist. Being an expert level recreational skier doesn't imply you need to be a world cup level skier. I'm not sure why that idea even came up in this thread. Maybe it was when VSP quoted the long dead catch phrase "all terrain-all conditions" PSIA used so many years ago. "All but the most extreme terrain and conditions" is the current language from our manuals. Which IMO is a more accurate desccription of the level three standard. It's also closer to the commonly used description of what constitutes an expert recreational skier level. Reletive to the OP's original question I would say these definitions make more sense than all the over the top ones being offered by the elitists who don't want to share that "expert" monikor with more than a few of their peers.


I agree with your statement.

 

but someone like say Kye Peterson can clearly ski all terrain and conditions doing it very fast. Some would say he is flailing skier on fat boards with no skills. 


Edited by BushwackerinPA - 8/9/10 at 10:25am
post #94 of 163

Any expert skier will suck when put in unfamiliar territory.

They just suck at a higher level.

 

 

As I said earlier, an expert skier has the requisite knowledge and skills to precisely control his skis.

 

Obviously it takes knowledge and skill to succeed at WC skiing.

All WC ski racers are expert skiers.  We know these skiers have the knowledge and skill, because they couldn't't't do what they do without it.

 

Not all expert skiers are WC ski racers.

As we try to broaden the definition to fit the broad field of experts, we search for other proofs of skill possession.

 

There are many less obvious skiing situations that require knowledge and skill, skiing a difficult line fast making decisions and adjustments on the fly for example, but then we get into the problem of what is fast and what is a difficult line.

 

PS.  The former expert skier, is a former skier, but still an expert.

post #95 of 163

Shawn White (I know snowboarder), isn't an expert snow boarder. In fact his off pist skills are some what limited, (he actually kind of sucks in the BC and deep powder).    The same could be said for several racers, especially from the east.  I have a friend who is a former downhill racer and now an instructor in Colorado, who hates powder!    He likes it fast and Icy.  Sorry but he may be an expert downhill racer but not an expert skier.   So the notion that ALL WC skiers are experts is flawed in my opinion.      And the notion that only WC skiers are experts is just f-in stupid.   I have skied with several guys in the BC and at resorts who I would consider experts, non were WC racers., but all jammed in the BC and at resorts.....    And lets not forget the BALLS factor of being an expert.  I have a few friends who jam at resort skiing but totally puss out at jumps/drops and or picking turns down a steep chute (or just straight lining it). .   sorry but IN MY OPINION that takes them out of the expert category.    

 

But hey we can all be self made experts here.  :) 

post #96 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiddy View Post

And lets not forget the BALLS factor of being an expert.  I have a few friends who jam at resort skiing but totally puss out at jumps/drops and or picking turns down a steep chute (or just straight lining it). .   sorry but IN MY OPINION that takes them out of the expert category.    



Interesting.  I would consider the "balls factor" as you put it, just the opposite.  Too many too low skill skier's with ample balls think they are experts when they are really just Darwin at work. 

 

I saw a video of a guy making a world record cliff drop...I am not sure how high it was, but it was MASSIVE, the guy looked like a dot falling....now this guy landed on his head!  Literally.  Head first into the snow.  Expert?  No chance.  My grandmother could have done as much, as could any no skill idiot.  How hard is it to fall of a rock and land on your head? 

 

Expert? nope.  Balls?  tons.

 

post #97 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post





Interesting.  I would consider the "balls factor" as you put it, just the opposite.  Too many too low skill skier's with ample balls think they are experts when they are really just Darwin at work. 

 

I saw a video of a guy making a world record cliff drop...I am not sure how high it was, but it was MASSIVE, the guy looked like a dot falling....now this guy landed on his head!  Literally.  Head first into the snow.  Expert?  No chance.  My grandmother could have done as much, as could any no skill idiot.  How hard is it to fall of a rock and land on your head? 

 

Expert? nope.  Balls?  tons.

 



I think that you nailed the core issue in the discussion of expert or not

post #98 of 163

I don't think I implied that anyone with balls is an expert, however anyone claiming to be an expert who hasn't the balls to ski expert terrain like an expert isn't an expert.   hows that....

post #99 of 163

I like your definition pdiddy. Experts can ski expert terrain. Intermediates can ski intermediate terrain. Beginners can ski beginners terrain. Pritty simple to understand. But should it take balls for a beginner to ski beginner terrain? Maybe not. Maybe an expert should be able to ski expert terrain without much hesitation. The balls factor would be pushing the limit. Like an expert venturing off into extreme terrain.

 

I read a pritty good definition of an expert killer in a book: an expert is one that is prepared to suffer the consequences.

post #100 of 163


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post

the girls get on the action, and unlike you they dont take out their SL skis to go suck in the powder. again they looked totally unstoked to ski powder

 

 


Thanks for posting that - good memories, I was lucky enough to be there that time in Aspen and it was a great day.
 

post #101 of 163


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

I like your definition pdiddy. Experts can ski expert terrain. Intermediates can ski intermediate terrain. Beginners can ski beginners terrain. Pritty simple to understand. But should it take balls for a beginner to ski beginner terrain? Maybe not. Maybe an expert should be able to ski expert terrain without much hesitation. The balls factor would be pushing the limit. Like an expert venturing off into extreme terrain.

 

I read a pritty good definition of an expert killer in a book: an expert is one that is prepared to suffer the consequences.

The validity of that definition would depend on what your definition of "ski" is;  when I was a beginner, I "skied" expert terrain, if by "ski" you mean a combination of straight-lining, hockey stops, and snow-plow turns.
 

post #102 of 163

Ghost, this is a hard to grabb and define topic. Like in ski jumping or bump skiing we would have to have judges passing style points for every skier. That would mean that expert skiing would be a combination of terrain and style.

post #103 of 163

What would somebody like Prof. Krukenhaus (spelling?) be? 

 

He was one of the defining people of ski technique but supposedly, by his own admission, could not do a parallel turn.  Sports always seemsto have a few of these folks; beyond expert knowledge, in any ones world, but can not execute. 

 

These folks go beyond coach or teacher, but what are they?

post #104 of 163

Let me try again

 

The absolute technical skill required to be an "expert" skier is

How well early and solidly they can establish and USE the outside edge of their inside ski.

 

This is true regardless of terrain

 

One additional visible indicator for racers is can they rebound down the hill (accelerate

from edge to edge) .. as opposed to rebounding vertically ... for stylish groomers and smooth bumpers. 

post #105 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stranger View Post

What would somebody like Prof. Krukenhaus (spelling?) be? 

                                            Stefan Kruckenhauser (fixed it for you ).

 

He was one of the defining people of ski technique but supposedly, by his own admission, could not do a parallel turn.  Sports always seemsto have a few of these folks; beyond expert knowledge, in any ones world, but can not execute. 

 

These folks go beyond coach or teacher, but what are they?

 

Aug 16, 2010

 

Hi Stranger:

 

As for "these folks go beyond coach or teacher"?  I would group them as "GOOD".  You know the famous 4 levels of achievement which I think Weems is the proponent of?  Beginner, Intermediate, Expert and GOOD.

 

I sort of pride myself on knowing a little of skiing history, however,being totally ignorant of Professor Kruckenhauser and cohort and their contribution to skiing, was to say the least, slightly embarrassing and humbling.  I am just familiar with the famous Austrian, Hannes Schneider.  Using the EPIC search function with "Kruckenhauser" as the search phrase, it seems that Prof Kruckenhauser has been well discussed on this site since at least 2001 when Ott Gangl, Bob Barnes, TOG and LisaMarie discussed the History of Skiing in some detail.  Finally, I include a picture of Kruckenhauser and a class he was teaching as well as a pointer to the March 2005 issue of Skiing Heritage, from which the picture was taken.  Actually the articles on this website proved quite interesting.  In this issue they talk about Harriman Cup, Sepp Ruschp as well as Prof Kruckenhauser.  (Note that LiasMarie beat me to making this site available by 9 years).

 

Stefan Kruckenhauser.png

 

Think snow,

 

CP

 

ps:  sorry forgot to paste in the website:

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=b1gEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA7&lpg=PA7&dq=stefan+kruckenhauser&source=bl&ots=9tMBnr_BKq&sig=iLbvNnX6MDD1492xM06cYhtA2Tw&hl=en&ei=f71pTIrsKIGBlAeZ-pyhBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CCcQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=stefan%20kruckenhauser&f=false
 


Edited by CharlieP - 8/16/10 at 3:45pm
post #106 of 163

Experts have a prolonged or intense experience through practice and education in a particular field. In specific fields, the definition of expert is well established by consensus and therefore it is not necessary for an individual to have a professional or academic qualification for them to be accepted as an expert. In this respect, a shepherd with 50 years of experience tending flocks would be widely recognized as having complete expertise in the use and training of sheep dogs and the care of sheep. Another example from computer science is that an expert system may be taught by a human and thereafter considered an expert, often outperforming human beings at particular tasks. In law, an expert witness must be recognized by argument and authority.

 

got this off of wikipedia

 

So allow me to attempt to translate the above statement,,

An expert skier does not need to have an professional or academic qualification/education pertaining to skiing, .  However, several years of experience (and several hundred days), the mastery of the sport and the ability to out perform most people would put this person into the expert criteria.         

And might I add,  To be considered an expert skier one must cover and master the broad band of skiing terrain including, powder, Crud, slush, Ice, bumps, steeps, drops, trees, back country and now we must add terrain parks.  So as you can see it's just getting too damn hard to become and maintain an expert status.  Hell it's like trying to keep up a medical degree or something!      I think i'm just going to focus on a few of those and become a specialist.     

    

post #107 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by woozler View Post

Let me try again

 

The absolute technical skill required to be an "expert" skier is

How well early and solidly they can establish and USE the outside edge of their inside ski.

 

This is true regardless of terrain

 

 

 

Bull shit.

 

For example lets take this fairly famous photo of a pretty much agreed upon expert skier. How long do you think that outside edge of the inside ski will be established and being used before it becomes the inside edge of the outside ski?

 

url1.jpg

post #108 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiddy View Post

Shawn White (I know snowboarder), isn't an expert snow boarder. In fact his off pist skills are some what limited, (he actually kind of sucks in the BC and deep powder)...


Quoted for hilarity but not for truth.

 

Also, for the talking heads who think someone like Jamie Pierre doesn't put a lot of thought into what they do, it's again kind of hilarious.  Nice to see the interest here in proper cliff drop technique though...

post #109 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilT View Post



 

Bull shit.

 

For example lets take this fairly famous photo of a pretty much agreed upon expert skier. How long do you think that outside edge of the inside ski will be established and being used before it becomes the inside edge of the outside ski?

 

url1.jpg


Very good.

It indeed has nothing to do with simply utilization of this or that edge.

post #110 of 163

Re ,,, Bullshit - sigh*

 

your photo . your expert ... has already established outside edge of up hill (inside) ski. .  The next turn (fast, slow, whatever) will/must be made by rising (in balance with edge set - no skidding) on the uphill ski.  And then rolling (and driving) that into the new outside turning ski,

 

you certainly do not mean to imply s/he intends to turn by rolling or resetting downhill ski.

 

btw .. you gotta be good and brave to ski this steep a slope.  But as to being expert, perhaps (Note shoulders, arms and pole rotated too far back up the hill ... this will result having to rise even more given necessity of torquing upper body in advance of driving from hips - lost time and increased complexity of movement.) 

 

Finally as to "Very good. It indeed has nothing to do with simply utilization of this or that edge."  It has everything to do with utilization of this or that edge.  Edges are the only thing that provide stability and control.

 

* The Hungarians have an epithet ... it is insufficient to be wrong, you must also be insulting.

post #111 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by woozler View Post

...

btw .. you gotta be good and brave to ski this steep a slope.  But as to being expert, perhaps (Note shoulders, arms and pole rotated too far back up the hill ... this will result having to rise even more given necessity of torquing upper body in advance of driving from hips - lost time and increased complexity of movement.) ...


Gotta love this.

post #112 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post




Quoted for hilarity but not for truth.

 

Also, for the talking heads who think someone like Jamie Pierre doesn't put a lot of thought into what they do, it's again kind of hilarious.  Nice to see the interest here in proper cliff drop technique though...

I watched an entire docu on Shawn White on his first Back country trip. he was falling all over the place and admitted he was very weak in the bc. So I guess you know more than him?
 

post #113 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiddy View Post



I watched an entire docu on Shawn White on his first Back country trip. he was falling all over the place and admitted he was very weak in the bc. So I guess you know more than him?
 


I know how to take things in context.  Shaun White (Shawn Farmer, but Shaun White) completely rips in bc conditions.  There are video projects centered around him there.  He's not a backcountry guide, not does he try to pretend to be, but you don't need to be an expert on bc travel to be one heck of a rider in all conditions.  Plus, just personal opinion, but the whole Olympics and X games results suggest to me that he's better than most snowboarders...

 

As already noted, a number of very strong (i.e., world-class pros) riders have had to make an adjustment when they first start riding in pow a lot.  The biggest adjustment is landing jumps, not the riding, btw.  Those riders were already pros, whether or not they felt they needed to get comfortable before filming in pow.  Once they have large amounts of video released centered around their riding in BC conditions, as does Shaun White, and you can see them ripping in those conditions, it's probably fair to say that, not only were they great riders before, but also now they're great riders who rip in pow.

 

Since White has rails out the yazoo, too, you actually took one of the best all-round riders on earth and said he didn't meet your standard of expert riding.  That was worth quoting for hilarity's sake.

 

post #114 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post




I know how to take things in context.  Shaun White (Shawn Farmer, but Shaun White) completely rips in bc conditions.  There are video projects centered around him there.  He's not a backcountry guide, not does he try to pretend to be, but you don't need to be an expert on bc travel to be one heck of a rider in all conditions.  Plus, just personal opinion, but the whole Olympics and X games results suggest to me that he's better than most snowboarders...

 

As already noted, a number of very strong (i.e., world-class pros) riders have had to make an adjustment when they first start riding in pow a lot.  The biggest adjustment is landing jumps, not the riding, btw.  Those riders were already pros, whether or not they felt they needed to get comfortable before filming in pow.  Once they have large amounts of video released centered around their riding in BC conditions, as does Shaun White, and you can see them ripping in those conditions, it's probably fair to say that, not only were they great riders before, but also now they're great riders who rip in pow.

 

Since White has rails out the yazoo, too, you actually took one of the best all-round riders on earth and said he didn't meet your standard of expert riding.  That was worth quoting for hilarity's sake.

===

 

 He was the first to say that his BC experience was nill.    I would imagine he has had more experience by now, but watching him struggle though powder,,, yawn...

 

post #115 of 163

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33ZxPqDnNvQ

 

pdiddy, thank you for classic internet.   In exchange, here's an internet-available clip of someone named Shaun riding pow.  Maybe he could have thrown in a few pivot slips, or maybe shown more precision by riding lower-angle aspects at much lower speeds, but let's just say that guy can ride. 

post #116 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by woozler View Post

Re ,,, Bullshit - sigh*

 

 

 

 

btw .. you gotta be good and brave to ski this steep a slope.  But as to being expert, perhaps (Note shoulders, arms and pole rotated too far back up the hill ... this will result having to rise even more given necessity of torquing upper body in advance of driving from hips - lost time and increased complexity of movement.) 

 

====\

 

OMG...........        The only way you would post something like that is if you have never skied somthing like that.....  

post #117 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33ZxPqDnNvQ

 

pdiddy, thank you for classic internet.   In exchange, here's an internet-available clip of someone named Shaun riding pow.  Maybe he could have thrown in a few pivot slips, or maybe shown more precision by riding lower-angle aspects at much lower speeds, but let's just say that guy can ride. 

===

 

I watched his first BC experience which was after he was famous, which goes back to my original point that not all world class riders are experts,  world class in the pipe doesn't equal expert.  He looks like he has been working on his skills,   If I just clicked on that video to watch an expert snowboarder I wouldn't be impressed.   Seriously, i'm not trying to be a dick, watch it again and pretend its some random guy and you will say the same thing.   But he has gotten better.    

post #118 of 163

Pdiddy: "He looks like he has been working on his skills,   If I just clicked on that video to watch an expert snowboarder I wouldn't be impressed.   Seriously, i'm not trying to be a dick, watch it again and pretend its some random guy and you will say the same thing.   But he has gotten better."

 

If it was a random guy, it would be a random guy ripping and having a lot of fun doing it. 

 

There's an internet phenomenon, not limited to skiing and riding, of people bizarrely poking at some of the best talents in an activity and talking about how they're...not good.  Skateboarders with little talent but with keyboards will talk about how Tony Hawk/Sheckler/Shaun White (also a world-class vert skater) etc. etc. aren't really good skaters because they've never seen a video of them doing something really easy to do, or because they're only one of the best in the world at one area of their sport. 

 

For skiing and snowboarding, the formula is pretty much the same.  Shaun White (or that Shawn White kid, who probably also rips), Bode Miller, Dale Begg-Smith, Marc Frank Montoya, Tanner Hall, Temple C, are all said to be very limited skiers/riders.  Presumably they all have potential, on account of their medals, video parts, tremendous success in the sport, etc., which could be realized if only they would pursue a rigorous program of kegel exercises or some such.

 

Oh, and pivot slips.  Don't forget regular pivot slips. 

 

Part of being a rider is giving respect where it's due.  You can ride or ski and be a rider, and ride or ski and be lame.

post #119 of 163

OMG...........        The only way you would post something like that is if you have never skied somthing (sic) like that.....

 

You are correct, I am sure I have never skied any thing so open, so steep and without bumps.  I have (many times) skied the Bowl at Highlands and even in this somewhat less pitched area I have to jump my turns … wanting to get my skies around as fast as I can without picking up speed.  (Somewhere between cautious and scared - more toward scared)

 

But if you were to drop me (by helicopter) onto this slope and tell me I had to make one turn.  Scared as I might be, I would not torque the upper part of my body uphill.  In fact, the first thing I would do is compose my body so I could see my hands – with upper body at least somewhat facing down hill. 

 

BTW, lets get really analytical; the reason the skier in the pictures shoulder, arm and pole are so far back is to counter balance (very good uphill edge set) forward lean of upper body.  To add fodder to your criticism I would try to stand somewhat more vertically aligned. – less core muscles tightly held.

 

In sum, I want to turn from center of gravity, not center of mass.  My goal/hope is I could make my turn with NO required movement (realignment) of upper body.  OMG silly, ignorant me.

 

And then back on point, this thread posed the question (paraphrased) what defines an expert skier.  I replied and stand by the absolutely required door way is the ability to establish and use the outside edge of the uphill ski.

 

The point was/is the skier in the picture is most certainly a good skier, going to a place I would never go.  But s/he is hardly the poster child of what makes an expert skier.  If this same body composition was photographed while running, say bumps (the real test of skiers IMO) it would be yard sale city.

 

But then again, you are correct … OMG what am I doing posting ski technique postulations on what is so much a social network.  It is getting cold here (near Aspen) this long dreadful mid ski season thaw is drawing to an end.  Best wishes for your back country riding.

post #120 of 163


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forerunner View Post




Very good.

It indeed has nothing to do with simply utilization of this or that edge.


agreed using any edge whenever you needed it is expert skiing. The ability to flow between pressure changes on each foot while still being able to direct our skis where we want them to go is mastery.

 

and BTW anyone else feel this woozer guys is coming of as very dawgmatic for someone who isnt established here? who are you and what have you done?


Edited by BushwackerinPA - 8/19/10 at 10:59am
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