or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ask the Boot Guys › Binding Position Questions
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Binding Position Questions

post #1 of 5
Thread Starter 

I've been playing with binding position on my skis for two seasons.  Some felt better than others but my results are skewed because my skiing has improved dramatically during the same time frame and that is based more on ability improvement (went from upper twisting body skidder to wanna be carver to a halfway decent carver and instructor).  I've read all types of articles on boot fitting and have been to all the home pages of the boot fitters in this forum that have them and several other boot fitters sites.  Everything I read about binding position makes sense but what throws me off is I can't find anyone that includes it in their boot fitting in New England.  Only two boot fitters from Epic mention it at their sites and both require a plane ride and one a pass port!

 

What I'm trying to figure out is if it is worth the effort to fine tune it in or is "close enough" good enough?  Get it close enough then modify your technique?  If I could only find two ski shops doing it; or at least only two advertising it, is it because they don't believe in it, customers don't want it or it isn't marketable (takes too long to explain to customers that think custom foot beds are a luxury)?  Even places that are Master Fit U trained with ABB certification don't do this or at least don't mention it on their site.

 

Another thing running through my cloudy head is that from my readings, years ago aligning the ball of foot (BOF) over the center running surface (CRS) of the ski was the method and some where along the lines, manufacturers started marking a spot on the ski to line up with a mark on the boot that seems to put the BOF a few cm behind the CRS of the ski.  I've read that since most recreational skiers skid, this is in their favor.  Is this why people don't want it, too hard to skid if you're 3 cm more forward?  Doesn't seem likely.  Or it didn't matter after they made the changes?

 

You can read for days at this site about pros and cons of skiing in a more neutral position and rolling your ankles to get on edge over using toe pressure and being way forward.  Does that also mean new style of skiing on new gear means new position (i.e behind BOF)?

 

How does someone starting out figure out if they are adjusting their body position/technique to compensate for binding position or the binding position and delta angle for that matter is correct and it's their technique that is off?  To me, being able to move the binding position back and forth is no different than moving the drivers seat of a car back in forth.  We all fit but we fit a little different.

 

Atomic and others use a binding system that lets you move the binding fore and aft.  Granted I would bet this was so they could sell a ski system instead of a ski but it gives you the benefit of being able to achieve a BOF/CRS position.  When I've asked a ski shop that was mounting bindings to use the BOF method, they told me only if I signed a waiver stating I requested it and wanted them to specifically ignore the manufactures recommendation.

 

I've skied with great instructors and pros this past year that have given my great tips.  All knew my boots were properly fitted and no matter where the binding position was, none said you're bindings are too far forward or back. 

 

Is the only way to nail this down an on hill evaluation specifically targeting this?  Should I spend a day with my pozi#3 (have Atomics) and a note pad recording the differences in different positions.  Start at BOF and work back then forward?

 

I appreciate any insight you can offer.

 

Thanks,

Ken

post #2 of 5

I would say the answers to your questions are simple and straightforward.  From our research I would say nothing about new ski design has eliminated the standard BOF/CRS from its point as a widely acceptable position.  This may not be true of early rise and reverse camber, but as yet I don't have a method of measuring their running surface.

 

The first research we did for Atomic was after new shapes were already on the market and established in WC.  The answer to how are bindings mounted for Atomic WC skiers was "BOF/CRS".

 

I spent part of this summer measuring new skis and can say that many manufacturers have moved their skis forward in the past year or two and nearly everyone is mounting their GS and SL skis identically when in the past it wasn't unusual for GS to be behind SL.

 

I assume I am the shopowner you refer to when you mention need of a passport.    I'd say if you are skiing a traditionally cambered ski use BOF/CRS as a starting point and test from there.  Most manufacters systems are adjustable to some degree.

 

Lou

post #3 of 5
Thread Starter 

Lou,

Thanks.  Yes you're the one I would need the passport for .  Thanks for re-assuring me that my plan is on the right path (start with bof and work from there).  I work in an environment where everything is constantly questioned and slightest changes have an enormous ripple effect.

 

I've read as much as I could on this subject based on what I could figure would yield a result on a search.  I have read the articles at your site (awesome! thanks!).  I'm hoping that taking the Master Fit U course will help put more things in perspective for me and increase my knowledge on this subject.

 

Thanks,

Ken

post #4 of 5

I will tell you that close enough is pretty good when starting with certain skis that in the past have been off by as much as 4 cm depending on your boot size.  I'll bet when you are done you'll be less than 1 cm from BOF/CRS.  Please let me know.

 

I can tell you that far too few instructors work with balance and alignment.  It is especially disappointing to me that it is true of instructors at major resorts that often see the same person for several days or more.  Changes in alignment are not more important than learning good technique but they dramatically speed up the process.  If more instructors learned to quickly resolve obvious problems I think repeat lessons would grow as would tips.

 

Lou

post #5 of 5
Thread Starter 



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou Rosenfeld View Post

 

I can tell you that far too few instructors work with balance and alignment.  It is especially disappointing to me that it is true of instructors at major resorts that often see the same person for several days or more.  Changes in alignment are not more important than learning good technique but they dramatically speed up the process.  If more instructors learned to quickly resolve obvious problems I think repeat lessons would grow as would tips.

 

Lou


I think there are a couple things going on that cause this.  First is knowledge.  I would guess that there is a fairly good percentage of instructors in too big not aligned boots and that is mostly because they don't understand it.  The ones that have been doing it a while do, but newer ones don't and even ones that have been doing for some time might not fully grasp it.  It might just be that mechanical things such as this aren't easily understood by them; they might know it's important but not understand it.

 

I watched in front of my eyes my daughter go from an almost double hip width stance to just hip width.  The only change was foot beds.  Same happened to me at the end of the ski season because I wore my boots out and they started rocking.  I didn't notice it (like watching the grass grow) but the PSIA Examiner did and told me I looked like I was over canted.  Gave me shims and viola!  Legs were together and turns were easier.  Checked the boots later and each side of the sole was worn (I'll get plates this season).

 

I believe too that fixing the alignment will speed the process or possibly enable the person being held back by equipment improve.  The problem, I think is that other than it being mentioned here and there for new instructors, there isn't a requirement for instructors to learn even the basics.  We talk about the importance of "Stacking" but how many understand the effect of knees not tracking or being under/over canted?

 

Now throw on top of that, movement of the binding fore and aft.  Especially for someone that's been skiing for 20 years, is a great skier and never had to mess with it.  How do you miss something you don't know exists? 

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ask the Boot Guys
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ask the Boot Guys › Binding Position Questions