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No easy retirement for Lance - Page 7

post #181 of 400

Round 2:

 

http://www.scribd.com/document_downloads/99744710?extension=pdf&from=embed

 

A bit shorter, without some of the invective.

 

I'd say that given the time that Lance competed, it wouldn't be surprising if he did dope.  However, what the USADA and WADA have constructed as a process is ridiculous.  Regardless of whether he did or did not dope, he ought to be entitled to a fair trial on the issue with the ability to see the evidence assembled against him and to confront the witnesses who will testify against him.  I also think his argument that the USADA proceeding is one that may deprive him of property and property rights is right, and that he is entitled to the protections of the US Constitution, particularly since the USADA is acting in a role of the State.

 

I wonder what the judge will do with this one -- we don't have long to wait.

 

Mike

post #182 of 400

It's not a court of law. It's simply a sporting governing body. They have rules, he signed on that he would abide by them.

 

He didn't.

 

Everything goes away, the titles and monies are all fair game. I for one will be happy to see it. It's taken far to long...

 

He knows

 

Like a deer in the headlights

WATSON_00002803-104-651x421.jpg

post #183 of 400

Rules.gif are Rules.gif

 

If they can't be enforced across everyone in the sport either the rules need to change or the sport needs to be dismantled.  I'm all for focusing on banning the performance enhancement at the junior levels and letting the adults do as they please.  If you can't keep over 80% of pro athletes from practicing some kind of drug or steroid regiment at some time in their annual training then we should either allow that or quit letting anyone compete at anything.  I'm all for allowing the carnage among adults if that frees up more resources to ensure the kids aren't able to do it so easily.  Also, having society be able to witness full scale the RISK versus reward via all the physical damage and deaths that will escalate if left as free for all may enlighten the next generations to focus on brain strong activities and attributes versus athletic ones a little more. 

 

24/7 decades long body monitors are the only potential way to prevent athletes from doing this.  Currently, it seems that the best cheaters are winning at everything.  Let's change that somehow.

post #184 of 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post

Rules.gif are Rules.gif

 

If they can't be enforced across everyone in the sport either the rules need to change or the sport needs to be dismantled.

 

So how do you feel about the cyclists that spoke against Lance allegedly being given 6-month suspensions during the coming off-season?

post #185 of 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

 

So how do you feel about the cyclists that spoke against Lance allegedly being given 6-month suspensions during the coming off-season?


Well, they obviously haven't been able to gather enough to sanction him in the past 20 years without putting the screws to people to get them to snitch on him.

post #186 of 400

The reality is, anyone who thinks Lance Armstrong was clean is a fool. Somehow he was the clean one while all his competitors have either been busted, or admitted to doping. All that being said. I don't care. The USADA should be spending that money to ensure that the current US peleton is clean, not retiree's.

post #187 of 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecimmortal View Post

The reality is, anyone who thinks Lance Armstrong was clean is a fool. Somehow he was the clean one while all his competitors have either been busted, or admitted to doping. All that being said. I don't care. The USADA should be spending that money to ensure that the current US peleton is clean, not retiree's.

The peleton will never be "clean", any more than any other pro sport. The stakes are to high and they will always seek an edge.

 

I'm very happy to finally get something I find useful out of my tax dollars. As for LA, live by the sword, die by the sword...

post #188 of 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossi Smash View Post

The peleton will never be "clean", any more than any other pro sport. The stakes are to high and they will always seek an edge.

 

I'm very happy to finally get something I find useful out of my tax dollars. As for LA, live by the sword, die by the sword...

 

 

 

Because of what you've stated, I'm a little "blah" about anything I hear about any kind of doping. 

That's really sad. 

post #189 of 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossi Smash View Post

 

 

I'm very happy to finally get something I find useful out of my tax dollars.

 

To me that would be getting the dopers currently racing.  If they cut a deal with Armstrong to nail Hincappie, Leipheimer, and particularly Johan Brunyel, that would be constructive.  They just look like publicity hunters with their Armstrong obsession.  Of course he doped, so did everyone else then too.  What, change the record books to show convicted dopers like Ulrich won?

 

They don't have unlimited resources, and going after Lance will be a legal nightmare.  Spend the money cleaning up the current sport, from high school track and football to current TDF riders.

post #190 of 400

My issue is the process.  I think folk ought to be held accountable to the rules.  However, athletes ought to have some due process protections, and the WADA and USADA process looks to have anything but.  Furthermore, there is far more than a tinge of what appears to be personal animosity and settling personal scores in the LA proceeding.  He ought to be held accountable, but if USADA/WADA want to come out of this with some of their stature and relevance intact, they better make sure that this process looks like it is a fair, considered proceeding weighing the facts and not a kangaroo court.

 

Mike

post #191 of 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog View Post

 

To me that would be getting the dopers currently racing.  If they cut a deal with Armstrong to nail Hincappie, Leipheimer, and particularly Johan Brunyel, that would be constructive.  They just look like publicity hunters with their Armstrong obsession.  Of course he doped, so did everyone else then too.  What, change the record books to show convicted dopers like Ulrich won?

 

They don't have unlimited resources, and going after Lance will be a legal nightmare.  Spend the money cleaning up the current sport, from high school track and football to current TDF riders.


Imagine if they spent the money on fostering the sport rather than trying to bust someone who is irrelevant. It would be nice to develop more Joe Dombrowski's. Than worry about old Lance Armstrong's.

post #192 of 400

Think this guy's on something? biggrin.gif

559344_461905603833214_1715982418_n.jpg

post #193 of 400

^^^ he's on a little bike, silly.

post #194 of 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog View Post

 

To me that would be getting the dopers currently racing.  If they cut a deal with Armstrong to nail Hincappie, Leipheimer, and particularly Johan Brunyel, that would be constructive.  They just look like publicity hunters with their Armstrong obsession. 

 

Yup.   Of course it also maximizes public entertainment value per dollar spent.     No one except cycling fans cares about those other guys.

post #195 of 400

What would cycling look like if there were no controls at all?

 

Maybe like strongman competitions:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/07/23/120723fa_fact_bilger?currentPage=all

post #196 of 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by cantunamunch View Post

What would cycling look like if there were no controls at all?

 

Maybe like strongman competitions:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/07/23/120723fa_fact_bilger?currentPage=all


We've got a Bear that competes in those events, or used to.

 

post #197 of 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog View Post

 

To me that would be getting the dopers currently racing.  If they cut a deal with Armstrong to nail Hincappie, Leipheimer, and particularly Johan Brunyel, that would be constructive.  They just look like publicity hunters with their Armstrong obsession.  Of course he doped, so did everyone else then too.  What, change the record books to show convicted dopers like Ulrich won?

 

They don't have unlimited resources, and going after Lance will be a legal nightmare.  Spend the money cleaning up the current sport, from high school track and football to current TDF riders.

 

Nah, I want mine to go towards burning down the Texan.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/18/sports/cycling/hincapie-an-armstrong-teammate-seen-as-reluctant-but-reliable-witness.html?_r=1&hp

post #198 of 400
post #199 of 400

I choose to have faith in human beings, so maybe I'm naive when I believe this...

Lances statement;

http://lancearmstrong.com/news-events/lance-armstongs-statement-of-august-23-2012

 

 

Quote:

Lance Armstong's Statement of August 23, 2012

 

AUSTIN, Texas - August 23rd, 2012 - There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in winning my seven Tours since 1999. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a two-year federal criminal investigation followed by Travis Tygart's unconstitutional witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for our foundation and on me leads me to where I am today – finished with this nonsense.

I had hoped that a federal court would stop USADA’s charade. Although the court was sympathetic to my concerns and recognized the many improprieties and deficiencies in USADA’s motives, its conduct, and its process, the court ultimately decided that it could not intervene.

If I thought for one moment that by participating in USADA’s process, I could confront these allegations in a fair setting and – once and for all – put these charges to rest, I would jump at the chance. But I refuse to participate in a process that is so one-sided and unfair. Regardless of what Travis Tygart says, there is zero physical evidence to support his outlandish and heinous claims. The only physical evidence here is the hundreds of controls I have passed with flying colors. I made myself available around the clock and around the world. In-competition. Out of competition. Blood. Urine. Whatever they asked for I provided. What is the point of all this testing if, in the end, USADA will not stand by it?

From the beginning, however, this investigation has not been about learning the truth or cleaning up cycling, but about punishing me at all costs. I am a retired cyclist, yet USADA has lodged charges over 17 years old despite its own 8-year limitation. As respected organizations such as UCI and USA Cycling have made clear, USADA lacks jurisdiction even to bring these charges. The international bodies governing cycling have ordered USADA to stop, have given notice that no one should participate in USADA’s improper proceedings, and have made it clear the pronouncements by USADA that it has banned people for life or stripped them of their accomplishments are made without authority. And as many others, including USADA’s own arbitrators, have found, there is nothing even remotely fair about its process. USADA has broken the law, turned its back on its own rules, and stiff-armed those who have tried to persuade USADA to honor its obligations. At every turn, USADA has played the role of a bully, threatening everyone in its way and challenging the good faith of anyone who questions its motives or its methods, all at U.S. taxpayers’ expense. For the last two months, USADA has endlessly repeated the mantra that there should be a single set of rules, applicable to all, but they have arrogantly refused to practice what they preach. On top of all that, USADA has allegedly made deals with other riders that circumvent their own rules as long as they said I cheated. Many of those riders continue to race today.

The bottom line is I played by the rules that were put in place by the UCI, WADA and USADA when I raced. The idea that athletes can be convicted today without positive A and B samples, under the same rules and procedures that apply to athletes with positive tests, perverts the system and creates a process where any begrudged ex-teammate can open a USADA case out of spite or for personal gain or a cheating cyclist can cut a sweetheart deal for themselves. It’s an unfair approach, applied selectively, in opposition to all the rules. It’s just not right.

USADA cannot assert control of a professional international sport and attempt to strip my seven Tour de France titles. I know who won those seven Tours, my teammates know who won those seven Tours, and everyone I competed against knows who won those seven Tours. We all raced together. For three weeks over the same roads, the same mountains, and against all the weather and elements that we had to confront. There were no shortcuts, there was no special treatment. The same courses, the same rules. The toughest event in the world where the strongest man wins. Nobody can ever change that. Especially not Travis Tygart.

Today I turn the page. I will no longer address this issue, regardless of the circumstances. I will commit myself to the work I began before ever winning a single Tour de France title: serving people and families affected by cancer, especially those in underserved communities. This October, my Foundation will celebrate 15 years of service to cancer survivors and the milestone of raising nearly $500 million. We have a lot of work to do and I'm looking forward to an end to this pointless distraction. I have a responsibility to all those who have stepped forward to devote their time and energy to the cancer cause. I will not stop fighting for that mission. Going forward, I am going to devote myself to raising my five beautiful (and energetic) kids, fighting cancer, and attempting to be the fittest 40-year old on the planet.

post #200 of 400
post #201 of 400

Sure, Lance, sure.  Pffffft.

post #202 of 400

Lance comes off pretty classy in my book. 

 

He is the greatest American cyclist in history and a great philanthropist and human being. I don't understand why tax dollars are being spent going after this person when there is no proof he did anything wrong. 


Edited by tromano - 8/23/12 at 9:33pm
post #203 of 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by tromano View Post

Lance comes off pretty classy in my book. 

 

He is the greatest American cyclist in history and a great philanthropist and human being. I don't understand why tax dollars are being spent going after this person when there is no proof he did anything wrong. 

I can't find one thing in this post I can agree with.

 

Biggest tool ever. He is the epitome of all that is wrong in pro sports in the world today.(and beyond, a crappy human as well)

 

TC, if you believe a single word of that expensively crafted press release....  nonono2.gif

post #204 of 400

Rossi, the more I read the more I have faith in individuals and the less I have faith in large governing bodies.  

 

The doping thing, in all sports, is exhausting and the way it plays out in media is stooopid. 

 

That's pretty much the extent of what I'll say on the topic. 

post #205 of 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trekchick View Post

Rossi, the more I read the more I have faith in individuals and the less I have faith in large governing bodies.  

 

The doping thing, in all sports, is exhausting and the way it plays out in media is stooopid. 

 

That's pretty much the extent of what I'll say on the topic. 

 

LA's impressive shortcomings have nothing to do with doping in cycling.....

post #206 of 400
Love him or hate him, he's got a point about due process and the USADA/WADA kangaroo court. And a good portion of this smacks of a vendetta against Armstrong for his holding Dick Pound to account. Is he arrogant? Absolutely. He also is a humanitarian, and while it may appear that his actions in trying to stop Tygart's Spanish inquisition were self serving, at the end of the day athletes will thank him for at least attempting to call attention to the fundamental unfairness of USADA, WADa, and the CAS.

Mike
post #207 of 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossi Smash View Post

I can't find one thing in this post I can agree with.

 

Biggest tool ever. He is the epitome of all that is wrong in pro sports in the world today.(and beyond, a crappy human as well)

 

TC, if you believe a single word of that expensively crafted press release....  nonono2.gif

 

 

I  agree, the press release is expensively and meticulously crafted.    It  is very obviously composed  to evoke condemnation of witch hunts, just like oh, The Crucible. 

 

That is not a bad thing. 

 

I  am mad at Lance Armstrong.    

 

I am not mad at him because of what he did ( or did not do ) in sport.      I am not mad at him because I do not like his human qualities. 

 

 

I am mad at Lance Armstrong because, if there is ONE human on the face of the planet who could be expected to stick through adversity and stick to his guns, it was Lance Armstrong.     His single, goal oriented bloody mindedness is something no one in this thread will dispute.    

 

And yet, Lance has now taught us to quit.

 

This announcement, in a lot of ways, makes me think Marion Barry is tougher than Lance Armstrong.    That, reader dears, is a very, very bad thing. 


Edited by cantunamunch - 8/24/12 at 6:09am
post #208 of 400

The process sucks.  Did Lance dope, probably, but he was never caught under the rules in place at the time.  The Federal prosecutor felt there wasn't enough evidence to convict him in a criminal court but the USADA knows, under their kangaroo court rules they don't need that discipline.  No matter what kind of defense he puts up under their rules he will loose because they are on a witch hunt to get him.  

 

Did he bring this on himself by being such an arrogant and combative ass, absolutely, but that still doesn't make process right.   USADA proceedings should have the same rules and be held to the same standards used in criminal proceedings.  Rumor, innuendo, and personal vendettas should not be the rule of law. 

 

Hell, if we use this standard, how many TdF winners will have to be stripped of their titles.

post #209 of 400

The process is being made up as we go along.     

 

I don't see that US criminal procedure applies here at all.    

 

Prosecute him under French rules  (or Spanish, if he doped in Girona), fine.    

 

 

*sigh* but all of that is secondary.        He could have been as arrogant as he wanted, as combative as he wanted.      

 

 He has now taught us to quit.   That is unforgivable. 

post #210 of 400

To me this does not say that LA quit.  It says that enough liberties have been erroded in this country to not shock most people when due process goes by the wayside too.  I believe that LA could not possibly have put this to rest in the long run and will be enriched by his decision.  I believe those whom pursued him at all costs will wind up losing quite a bit personally.   Never underestimate who the American people will choose as a martyr.   I was on the fence, now I am not.

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