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rotary bad?

post #1 of 67
Thread Starter 
If rotary movements are so bad and not part of good skiing, how would we turn our feet as we leave the lip of the half pipe. HMMMM...

Balance, Rotary, Edge, Pressure, all properly blended make up expert skiing..

Just a comment and food for thought.

DC
post #2 of 67
wasn't there a band on the 70s called carved air?
post #3 of 67
Spinning off the lip of a half pipe ain't actually centerline skiing.

I find that there is plenty of use for rotary, even on groomers while carving. Lest ye park-n-ride

yummy food, David.
post #4 of 67
Rotary good.
Static bad.
Understanding good.
Pop theoretical mimicking bad.
post #5 of 67
DC

Ignoring upper body rotations, I'm sure you know this but I'm going to tell you anyway [img]redface.gif[/img] ..... not all rotary is bad, even to the purist it's only that which attempts to force a turning ski by twisting it. Off the lip the ski isn't turning, nor is it off a mogul, so that's ok.

Isn't there rotary movement in the femur/pelvis to achieve shifts in fore-aft balance, but it doesn't twist the ski so its ok?

Isn't the criterium the negative effect on the designed working of the ski that some rotational twisting can have and the rest is ok?
post #6 of 67
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by daslider:
DC

Ignoring upper body rotations, I'm sure you know this but I'm going to tell you anyway [img]redface.gif[/img] ..... not all rotary is bad, even to the purist it's only that which attempts to force a turning ski by twisting it. Off the lip the ski isn't turning, nor is it off a mogul, so that's ok.

Isn't there rotary movement in the femur/pelvis to achieve shifts in fore-aft balance, but it doesn't twist the ski so its ok?

Isn't the criterium the negative effect on the designed working of the ski that some rotational twisting can have and the rest is ok?
Re-read my post..


Quote:
Balance, Rotary, Edge, Pressure, all properly blended make up expert skiing.
post #7 of 67
was it a rhetorical question? You don't have to answer either.
post #8 of 67
Daslider, when you roll onto the edge by rolling onto the edge of your foot and pressure the tip, your femur rotates and the foot "steers" the ski tip into the surface. That helps add to the bend as the ski flexes, thus helping tighten the turn.
post #9 of 67
I just spent a 70 degree day teaching in boot top glop.

I was hunting for every ounce of rotary movement my fat body could find.
post #10 of 67
Rotary is good. Why would anyone think it's bad?

I think people have different opinions of the best way to generate rotary torque, but I don't know of anyone that thinks rotary is bad. (how could one ski if there were not rotary movements?)

Here are normally accepted ways to generate rotary forces:

1. Body position and counter rotation and the ski's wanting to unwind creates turning torque.

2. Leg Tipping of the inside leg creates outside femur leg rotation.

3. Lower leg steering also creates rotary torque.

Some blended variation of the above is what most people do. I choose to de-emphasize the lower leg steering as the least effective, but many like that way. I think that type of leg steering can hold people back as it's too easy to have early big toe edge engagement with that approach. But many don't agree or don't see it as a problem.


You also have people that generate torque in a bad way.

1. Leading with the shoulder by throwing the shoulder in the turn and then in a gross body movement the skis will follow around (I used to use this as my main way of turning. You commonly see it on the slopes)

2. Throwing your hip to twist the skis. (though this is an easy way to hocky stop, but you normally wouldn't want to do a lot of this just to get down a normal slope, yet many skiers do this as their normal way of generating rotary forces)

These all generate rotary forces. Some types of rotary movement use the ski design better than others. If your in a carve and don't want to lose your nice line, some types should not be used at all.
post #11 of 67
Quote:
Here are normally accepted ways to generate rotary forces:

1. Body position and counter rotation and the ski's wanting to unwind creates turning torque.

2. Leg Tipping of the inside leg creates outside femur leg rotation.

3. Lower leg steering also creates rotary torque.
John where did you get the information that these were the normally accepted ways to generate rotary forces?
post #12 of 67
Sorry Pierre.

Did I miss a few?

I put hip steering in the bottom not so normal category. Should it go up to the accepted category?

Add more to the list or tell me which ones you don't think belong.

[ March 09, 2004, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: John Mason ]
post #13 of 67
How about subtract from the list.

The only method that is really efficient is independent leg steering (rotation of the legs independently at the hip sockets).

Independent leg steering can take place with any blending of edge from pure carve to flat ski. I requires a tall athletic stance with the hips over the feet.

You're tipping to create rotation in the stance leg is an example of this. There is much more going on than just tipping. If you don't believe me why do you pull the free foot back and close the stance foot ankle in a Phantom turn.

Upper body forms that are less efficient are, rotation, counter rotation, anticipation release, rotary pushoff and blocking with a pole plant.
post #14 of 67
I'm sorry Pierre, but I have no disagreement with what your saying.
post #15 of 67
Quote:
Originally posted by Pierre:

You're tipping to create rotation in the stance leg is an example of this. There is much more going on than just tipping. If you don't believe me why do you pull the free foot back and close the stance foot ankle in a Phantom turn.

Specifically what you wrote above. I don't disagree with what your saying at all. Tipping creates strong rotation. And as for pulling the free foot back etc. that's where it already was. Not sure where you're coming from.
post #16 of 67
rotary bad?

If you are referring to the term "rotary" - absolutely

This term can be inferred to mean rotation of any body part as well as the ski.

Relative to the body:
Given that body parts can rotate to varying degrees, in varying combinations with extension and flexion as well as in combination with other joint movements, I have tremendous confusion about what anyone means by "rotary."

Relative to the ski:
It also seems to be used to refer to pivoting of the ski (rotation in the plane of the snow) although rotation along the axis of the ski (edging or tippping) can also possibly be inferred. Somehow it seems to be associated with "steering" (another term without any good defintion). As we can only pivot, tip, torque the ski fore and aft, and vary the weighting of the ski (through extension and retraction) I would think it would be much more effective to define and use terms referring to these better defined movements of a ski either by themselves or in combination.

Finally the greatest confusion comes when rotary is used to refer both to body movements and ski movements.

I say the term should be banned. (Note, I have to objection to the use of the term rotation when specifically associated with the movement of a joint or the ski).

[img]graemlins/evilgrin.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/evilgrin.gif[/img] rotary [img]graemlins/evilgrin.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/evilgrin.gif[/img]
post #17 of 67
Thread Starter 
Actually John, I think you suprised Pierre.
What you have suggested is quite well thought out and almost goes against what has been espoused by our departed SCSA. (rotary and steering is bad. Tip to turn)

The Title of the thread is "tongue in cheek" meant to invoke some good discussion which it looks like we are going to get.

DC
post #18 of 67
si said:
Quote:
Finally the greatest confusion comes when rotary is used to refer both to body movements and ski movements.

I say the term should be banned. (Note, I have to objection to the use of the term rotation when specifically associated with the movement of a joint or the ski).
Absolutely no way should it be banned. The term rotary is a PSIA term that is "ALL INCLUSIVE". If it were broken down and chopped up then PSIA could not say that "We have been doing that for years". As it is, everything fits under the umberella of PSIA and they can ligitimately make that claim. That is where Harb went wrong. He can't teach rotary now and keep face. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]
post #19 of 67
Quote:
Originally posted by dchan:
Actually John, I think you suprised Pierre.
What you have suggested is quite well thought out and almost goes against what has been espoused by our departed SCSA. (rotary and steering is bad. Tip to turn)
DC
I think people can take PMTS courses or centerline courses and confuse the tipping actions with making you passively ride the ski around. But that's not what it teaches from my understanding. Pierre's description was very accurate. Really, I personally didn't see a lot of difference between what Bob wrote in his perfect turn either. If a PMTS person thinks what Pierre wrote was wrong, then perhaps a PMTS person would like to describe then what exactly is happening when you can be at the top of a Mogul, and balance on the very top, raise and tip the inside leg and let youself fall to that side, the so called "stance leg" (which is a term I think confuses people to think rotary forces are not being caused) will do a 180 on the spot and you then easily go down the face of the bump (or is that the back the bump. Oh well, the side of the bump that faces away from your direction of travel.

What Pierre says is very true and any person can just try it out standing. Stand on one foot, say the right one. Lift the left foot. Tip the left foot and nothing will happen. But Tip the left foot and add some ankle closure while letting your body fall to the side (have your arm on a wall or something -duh- ) and you will find your foot wants to twist so bad you foot hurts in your shoe. It takes no ski or carving to create this rotary effect.

My son, who is an expert roller blader (and college cheerleader etc, you get the pic - a true athelete (me - I'm more of a nerdy geek) showed me this stand up test as he pointed out it's the same move in rollerblading.

Perhaps SCSA was confused on this point.
post #20 of 67
Quote:
Originally posted by Pierre:
That is where Harb went wrong. He can't teach rotary now and keep face. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]
My understading I just put up that you echoed is what Harb teaches. I think the difference is where you will also rely or teach conscious rotation of the weighted leg as you mentioned, Harold perfers and thinks its better to teach resulting rotation of that same leg caused by the Phantom move, which you very accuratly described.

Bob also described this Kenetc Chain effect in his essay on the "Perfect Turn".

I have never heard or read Harold or any PMTS teacher ever say there is no rotary effect involved.
post #21 of 67
Quote:
Perhaps SCSA was confused on this point.
Ooooooh and he can't answer. [img]graemlins/evilgrin.gif[/img]

He might get back on if he SUCKED up.
post #22 of 67
Oh - is SCSA blocked or something?
post #23 of 67
. . . and here I have been thinking that religious dogma and ski instruction are not in any way related. What a mistake! There's "political correctness" (same as religious dogma) rampant in the theology of ski technique/instruction. Brace yourself for "The Passion of the Christi".

Si, I do appreciate your tendancy to see it and tell it objectively in mechanical terms. Notwithstanding, and even considering that I have not been confirmed or bar mitvahed in the PSIA or PMTS faiths, use of the terms "edge, rotary, pressure and balance" have been useful and not confusing to me in learning and teaching.

However, Si, you have exposed the trap - "rotary bad?" The answer, obviously, is "it depends on the circumstances, what's being rotated, and how ir's being rotated".

What I like best about Bob Barnes's approach to instruction - and I'm not sure that this has been apparent to all out there - is that the student is exposed to and tries different techniques and can apply them when, where and as they may be of use. There is not a "good" and a "bad". There are techniques, skills, and choices.

That's my understanding, and I welcome any positive or critical comments from all, including, of course, Bob, Si and Weems and anyone else who cares to reply.
post #24 of 67
Don't confuse rotary movements and rotary forces. In general rotary movements create rotary forces.

The generally accepted rotary movements that will create rotary forces are:

1) Rotation - for examply throwing your right arm across your body onto your left shoulder.

2) Counter rotation - doing the twist. One body part moves in one direction one in the other. A good way to discern rotation from counter rotation is that counter rotation is a one-two movement

3) Leverage - a blocking pole plant for example gives us something to hold onto to create rotary force.

And, last but not least - the most preferable for most skiing...

4) Torque - independent leg steering that eminates from the femur in the hip socket. Only can be accomplished with the feet apart and moving each leg independently.

Thank you Bob Barnes, and his Encyclopedia of Skiing. I built two complete lesson plans around these concepts for my Level III exam.

Bob
post #25 of 67
Bob! Get the booked reprinted! There are hungry readers out there!
post #26 of 67
Quote:
My understading I just put up that you echoed is what Harb teaches. I think the difference is where you will also rely or teach conscious rotation of the weighted leg as you mentioned, Harold perfers and thinks its better to teach resulting rotation of that same leg caused by the Phantom move, which you very accuratly described.

Bob also described this Kenetc Chain effect in his essay on the "Perfect Turn".

I have never heard or read Harold or any PMTS teacher ever say there is no rotary effect involved.
Now wait a minute John, where did I say conscious rotation on a weighted leg. I generate my rotation through a combination of ankle flex and ankle tipping with the hips over the feet in an anotomically beneficial position.

I don't buy into everything Harald says but I do not find anything that really disagrees with me in the context of where and how he uses it.
post #27 of 67
Quote:
Originally posted by John Mason: Tip the left foot and nothing will happen. But Tip the left foot and add some ankle closure while letting your body fall to the side (have your arm on a wall or something -duh- ) and you will find your foot wants to twist so bad you foot hurts in your shoe. It takes no ski or carving to create this rotary effect.

My son, who is an expert roller blader (and college cheerleader etc, you get the pic - a true athelete (me - I'm more of a nerdy geek) showed me this stand up test as he pointed out it's the same move in rollerblading.

Perhaps SCSA was confused on this point. [/QB]
John,

Why does your foot want to twist so bad? You have the sword in hand and it is dual edged. The very thing that wants to make it "twist so bad" is the achilles heel of PMTS.

Go down to your kitchen in socks and put your back to a wall. Turn both feet simultaneously.

Now stand in the middle of the room and lift one foot and try the same task very, very, very slowly. Try to turn the foot one inch per five seconds. IT WON"T TURN UNLESS YOU ROTATE YOUR HIPS OR SHOULDERS.

Rotation of this sort will skid the skis. It's that turn on a dime feeling you talk about and is the trademark/hallmark of terminal intermediacy.

find someone who can introduce you to two things;

1. Independent Leg Steering

2. Inside Leg Steering via tipping

Blend those two skills, toss in a healthy dose of active flexion/extension and you will begin the journey towards a life of good skiing.

You won't have to worry about dynamic balance, a stance foot or any such horse hockey...you will have it via these movements.

NOTICE I AVOIDED A PROMISE THAT YOU CAN BECOME A FREAKIN EXPERT.
post #28 of 67
One thing I learned early on when reading Harb’s books, which is that inside leg steering and foot (boot) tipping did not produce the same results. What I learned by reading, trial and error, was that inside leg steering created separation of the ski tips, body rotation and skidding. Inside leg tipping (Phantom Move) followed by outside foot tipping, created edge engagement and carving. It doesn’t matter to me or most other skiers what results higher up the body, as long as I get results. I never got results from trying to steer my legs to achieve ski performance, actually leg steering reduces ski performance.

I see it on the slopes, with my friends and other skiers who try to keep the inside ski parallel to the outside ski by quickly rotating the inside leg and ski to catch it up to the outside ski. These tips result in full body rotation and skidding.

In this thread John Mason brings real understanding, for the first time to this topic ( don't teach rotary movements) that Harb demonstrated in his books and videos. If you use tipping movements starting at the feet or boots (PMTS foundation) from the bottom of the kinetic chain, you can create efficient movements for students and never have to describe, or confuse the issue with the “bad rotary” resultant. John is a student of Harb’s methods and obviously understands PMTS and skiing mechanics as well as or better than most ski instructors.
post #29 of 67
Quote:
One thing I learned early on when reading Harb’s books, which is that inside leg steering and foot (boot) tipping did not produce the same results. What I learned by reading, trial and error, was that inside leg steering created separation of the ski tips, body rotation and skidding
Maybe by Harb's definition of steering but not by mine. My definition is not a whole lot different from Harb's but I can call it STEERING.

What you are describing as steering is upper body movements transfered to the feet (rotation and hip movments). Yah got part of it right.

I want to clue you in on one more thing. Efficient steering cannot be done from the back seat at all.
post #30 of 67
Quote:
Originally posted by carv_lust:
One thing I learned early on when reading Harb’s books, which is that inside leg steering and foot (boot) tipping did not produce the same results. What I learned by reading, trial and error, was that inside leg steering created separation of the ski tips, body rotation and skidding. Inside leg tipping (Phantom Move) followed by outside foot tipping, created edge engagement and carving. It doesn’t matter to me or most other skiers what results higher up the body, as long as I get results. I never got results from trying to steer my legs to achieve ski performance, actually leg steering reduces ski performance.

I see it on the slopes, with my friends and other skiers who try to keep the inside ski parallel to the outside ski by quickly rotating the inside leg and ski to catch it up to the outside ski. These tips result in full body rotation and skidding.

In this thread John Mason brings real understanding, for the first time to this topic ( don't teach rotary movements) that Harb demonstrated in his books and videos. If you use tipping movements starting at the feet or boots (PMTS foundation) from the bottom of the kinetic chain, you can create efficient movements for students and never have to describe, or confuse the issue with the “bad rotary” resultant. John is a student of Harb’s methods and obviously understands PMTS and skiing mechanics as well as or better than most ski instructors.
I have seen two individuals who has been exposed to PMTS who can carve a turn and they are Arcmeister and HH.

The remainder skid. They skid badly.

Stop by and see me at Eldora some time and prove you are the third and that it isn't merely lusting that you are doing for a carved turn.
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