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Can you identify this hit-and-run skier? - Page 5

post #121 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post




This is why HC guy, who hit the other skier from behind, i.e. ran across the tails of the other skier's skis, should not be too quick in fingerpointing.


lol - touche!

post #122 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by CerebralVortex View Post

So, at what point does the overtaken skier become the uphill skier and, thus, assume responsibility as such?

 

There's a good 4 or 5seconds between the HC guy checking a bit (probably not far enough) to his right and the initiation of the turn. Then, there's another 1 or 2 seconds between the initiation of the turn and the collision itself. And, since the younger skier wasn't flashing past at a much higher speed, as can be seen in the way the older guy nearly fell on top of her, she had to have been beside/in front of the guy for at least a couple of seconds (we can't see when because of the narrow view of the camera and the lack of head movement).

 

Obviously, the HC guy was overtaken at some point. But, at which point does he officially become the uphill skier?



He never got there!  The girl should have never been so close while passing.  If you pass and turn right in front of someone it's the same as coming from off trail, to trail. One needs to look up and yield.  How can one do that when they are so close as to have impact? 

 

As for the lame argument he turned in front of her is just that, lame.  The skier below has the right to be erratic as they want, turning any way they want, take the whole run etc.  Or, be on a line, then suddenly turn another way.  If one is the overtaker, they are responsible. 

post #123 of 142

While in no way excusing the not stopping - I'm not sure the incident is cut & dry.  The camera perspective seems to imply that the girl comes in from nowhere (& behind) but I'd rather have a view from behind both of them to decide who was most at fault.  The piste is question is a wide flat glide out to either peak chair (visible on left) or the T Bar (visble on right) or straight on on the flat past the reservoir and in many times skiing it I've never seen people collide on that particular flat spot as most people know to keep straight as momentum is generally desirable.

 

The cameraman clearly veers quite severely to the right prior to the collision, and given that we see his tips for the first time in a long while I'm not convinced he's not looking down rather than paying attention to a skier alongside him.  The girl isn't in the clear either obviously as there is no look at the guy but she is clearly in front in the collision.  Question is which we can't tell - did she overtake shortly after the long look right and therfore had been in the lead for a while prior to them turning into each other?

  

post #124 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post





He never got there!  The girl should have never been so close while passing.  If you pass and turn right in front of someone it's the same as coming from off trail, to trail. One needs to look up and yield.  How can one do that when they are so close as to have impact? 

 

As for the lame argument he turned in front of her is just that, lame.  The skier below has the right to be erratic as they want, turning any way they want, take the whole run etc.  Or, be on a line, then suddenly turn another way.  If one is the overtaker, they are responsible. 


Well, like I said before, the trail apparently veers to the left towards the orange fences below (you can see various objects on the right that indicate the right edge of the trail is near), and the girl's skis are pointing straight at the orange fences and the edges are unweighted before impact. From the limited info available, I'd have to guess the girl was pretty much following the trail and not turning in front of the guy.

 

Also, as you can see in the slow-motion part of the video, the girl's shadow is visible in front of HC guy as he pressures his edges, and he then turns into the back of her (don't let the camera angle fool you into thinking the guy didn't turn).

 

Hence my question about overtaken skiers becoming uphill skiers. If the girl was in front before HC guy makes his turn (not enough evidence to be conclusive, but definitely possible), then doesn't that make him the uphill skier?

post #125 of 142

No it doesn't make him the uphill skier yet.  She has to safely pass him, and be more than two half ski lengths (her tails and his tips) in front of him before she can claim to be the downhill skier and not the "passing" skier.

 

If he can hit her as she is passing him, she is passing too close and should have just slowed down instead of passing him.

post #126 of 142

Amazing where all of these "unwritten rules" come from...

 

Clearly you are all mistaken. The fault lies with skier number 3 who pushed him from behind.

post #127 of 142

Actually these rules are written down, in quite a few places.

post #128 of 142

I posted this video but had no idea that it was getting this kind of attention. Thanks to outdoorlife25 for alerting me.  Let me provide a bit more background information and additional facts.  I first skied Whistler in 1968 and am fairly familiar with this mountain.  As a former ski patroller, I am an accomplished skier with a better than most understanding of the unfortunate consequences of ski accidents and a good understanding of the rules of the road, so to speak.  This collision occurred on a very wide open groomed section of the mountain relatively close to the bottom of the peak chair.  I believe that who ever ran into me was coming from the roundhouse lodge heading to peak chair lift and cut across my line from my 5 o'clock position. I had the right of way initiating a relatively mild right hand turn just prior to impact.

 

I actually have no memory of this accident which is common after suffering a concussion.  My first recollection is standing in the lift line wondering where I was and how I got there.  I obviously had the where with all to get up after the crash, find my camera and ski down to the lift but I don't remember this.  In a some what state of confusion, I phoned my wife in Baltimore who advised me to seek medical attention.  I skied down to mid-station and found a ski patroller who called in a mountain doctor who advised me that I had suffered a concussion and that my day was over.  I was down loaded to the bottom of the mountain and spent the rest of the day in the Whistler Hospital.  (Free only to residents of Canada). 

 

My helmet cam is a gopro which is very small with no view finder or ability to replay.  It was actually attached to the top of my helmet and in no way was distracting my skiing.  In fact, I only found out what happened to me when I returned to my mothers place in Vancouver and down loaded the video onto her computer.

 

When I got back to Baltimore my head aches began to get worse and worse and in mid April went back to my doctor and got a CAT scan which show suddural hematomas on both side of the brain which required neuro surgery.  I am fine now, but accident put me out of action for all of April and May and part of June.

 

Thanks to all who show concern for my condition.

post #129 of 142

Oliver thanks for giving a bit more context and sorry to hear that there more complications which hopefully you've now resolved. 

 

I would have thought it an unusal route to take from the Roundhouse but possibly from the top of the T bar to Peak lift line, however if the offender was joining the piste its another strike against them. I'm sorry to say that I'd guess its unlikely you'll ever track the other party down- they were clearly a holidaymaker or day tripper (ticket visible on the slow motion).

 

Do US citizens not carry travel insurance when visiting Canada or vice versa? I can't think of any Europeans that would dream of skiing in Canada or the US without appropriate travel insurance.

 

I had a hard helmet hit in Bariloche once and suddenly found myself sitting in a lodge drinking a hot chocolate with no memory of the time between the slam and the time which must have been at least 5 minutes later. I was just grateful that I'd been wearing a helmet & somewhat amazed that my Spanish and cash handling ability had clearly been maintained during the intervening period. 

post #130 of 142

Thanks for the update.  The additional background info concerns me  a great deal about older skiers in general, especially because I am quickly becoming one.  I've watched the video several times and I still can't fathom how a really serious injury could have occurred, especially with a helmet.  I do realize that Natasha Richardson was practically standing still when she bashed her head on rock hard re-frozen super hard stuff.  The skiers in the video appear to both be chugging along at a very moderate, maybe even slow pace.  So, I'm guessing that as we get older we are at much greater risk of real damage from simple falls we used to bet right up from.  I recently had an experience that enlightened me to this cold hard fact.  My son was doing some tumbling exercises with his cub scout den to earn a badge.  I had to demonstrate one where the task was to fall backwards, roll, and pop back up to your feet.  When I did it I felt kinda dizzy and a little disoriented.  That really surprised me.   It was like my internal gyroscope that has guided me through thousands and thousands of falls in various activities where that internal gyroscope has guided me and instructed me to protect my head and extrema ties quite well.  I see someone having a fall like the one in the video and can't imagine a likelihood of serious injury. 

 

Oliver, if you're still out there, did you hear or see the other skier coming before impact so you could brace for impact?  Or, were you completely blindsided, not hearing the chatter of the other skier?  Are you somehow hearing impaired?  I'm not accusing you of being stupid, I just an trying to grasp how such a severe head impact could result from from a seemingly low speed impact between converging skiers unless you never heard the other skier approaching so you could turn to look.  If you did see and hear them before impact, I fear that older folks might lose internal awareness of surroundings and protection instincts required to ski safely.

 

Any thoughts from other older skiers out there?  I'm starting to notice loss of these instincts myself, but I still ski pretty aggressively.

post #131 of 142

It's not so much the speed of the collision between you and the other skier; it's the impact of your head with the snow that does the damage.  It's all in how much your head accelerates when it impacts something.  Sometimes that something is the other skier, sometimes it's the snow/ice.  There was a case in Kingston a few years back where someone got knocked out by a punch, and when he fell the impact of his head with the floor did him in.  He was standing still.  Just a 5 foot drop will do it.   Protect your head.

post #132 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

It's not so much the speed of the collision between you and the other skier; it's the impact of your head with the snow that does the damage.  It's all in how much your head accelerates when it impacts something.  Sometimes that something is the other skier, sometimes it's the snow/ice.  There was a case in Kingston a few years back where someone got knocked out by a punch, and when he fell the impact of his head with the floor did him in.  He was standing still.  Just a 5 foot drop will do it.   Protect your head.

I get that, what I'm saying is that unless you are totally cold cocked from behind protecting your head in a fall seems instinctive and given for an experienced skier.  The last time I took a wicked head shot it was thanks to a safety strap whipping my hart gremlin around and whacking me in the back of the head. Due to the implied level of experience I would expect OP to have some decent fall skills.  Bu, I've noticed as I'm getting older that my self awareness in a tumble isn't nearly as good as it was in my teens and 20s.  I'm also wondering if neck muscles aren't as effective at tucking the chin and keeping the head off the ground as we get older.  Still, my main question is did OP hear the other skier approaching?  Should they have?  This is exactly why I don't ski with ear buds or headphones.  Even still, my hearing isn't as good as it used to be. 


Edited by crgildart - 7/10/10 at 1:02pm
post #133 of 142

oops double post


Edited by telerod15 - 7/10/10 at 12:50pm
post #134 of 142

Thats OK Rod we always like to hear from you

post #135 of 142

Crgildart,

I notice as I get older my reflexes are slower (still faster than 97% of skier), but the real problem is I'm a lot less flexible.  Too bad I'm so lazy or I would work on that.  Tuck and roll is gradually shifting from ballet-like smoothness to sack of potatoes lump-de-lump.  My solution is to just avoid falling and ski faster than the other skiers so they can't hit me.

 

The OP doesn't remember the collision at all, but I guess he can tell us how good his hearing is.

post #136 of 142

Either ski faster than 97% or where no one else wants too.

post #137 of 142

I have no hearing impairment and I don't believe I heard the skier approaching me.  I hit the ground so hard that it actually cracked the lining in my helmet.

 

As for older skiers, here is the deal.  As you get older your brain actually shrinks a bit leaving space between your skull and brain.  This fact makes older people much more susceptible to subdural hematomas.  In fact my brother in law who is 64 fell down snow shoeing this winter and banged his head and had to under go exactly the operation as I did.  He didn't think much of it at the time but 3 months later began to wobble around because of pressure on the brain.

 

It is also a simple fact that the older I get the better I was.  But I have no intentions of quiting skiing.

post #138 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by oliver7598 View Post

I have no hearing impairment and I don't believe I heard the skier approaching me.  I hit the ground so hard that it actually cracked the lining in my helmet.

 

It is also a simple fact that the older I get the better I was.  But I have no intentions of quiting skiing.

That's a hard hit.    The bottom line is, the other skier did not stop, which is incomprehensible to me.

 

Having that kind of injury would deter some from skiing again.  I'm glad you plan to get back out there.

post #139 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twintip View Post

 

 

I'm glad you plan to get back out there.



Me too, but bring a buddy if you can.

post #140 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbob View Post

Do US citizens not carry travel insurance when visiting Canada or vice versa? I can't think of any Europeans that would dream of skiing in Canada or the US without appropriate travel insurance.


Not to take the thread off topic, but even when you have to pay 'full-pop' for medical attention in Canada, it's still a tiny fraction of the cost of comparable treatment in the U.S.  My ex-girlfriend's mother (from Houston) blew her knee in Banff and had reconstruction done the next day in the Banff hospital by one of the best orthopedic surgeons in the country (national ski team surgeon), and she put the whole thing on her credit card.  After the exchange on the dollar, it cost her around $1,500 U.S., plus $40 for the crutches.  She said her other daughter had had similar surgery years before and the cost to her had been close to $20,000 in Texas (wasn't covered by her insurance).  I told her at those prices she could afford to come back and wreck her knee every year.

post #141 of 142

The camera shows two skiers passing too close and unsafely, resulting in a crash.  But the field of view is far too limited to know for sure who had the right of way, who was the skier ahead at the time the incident began. 

 

If you cannot remeber anything then how do you know you were not at fault? If you cannot remember then how do you know that the other person did not stop to offer assistance? People who have a concussion can sometimes have amnesia but still remain apparently concious throught the episode. You might have told the other other guy you were ok and not remember it. 

post #142 of 142

The camera shows Hat Skier approaching from behind and from Cam Skier's right, too closely to Cam Skier.  Hat Skier clips Cam Skier's tips, resulting in a crash.  The field of vision of the camera is quite adequate to assess relative positions of both skiers.  The footage leading up to the crash is also quite clear in establishing the skiing patterns of Cam Skier:  he is not doing anything abrupt or unpredictable.

 

The turn to the right, which Cam Skier describes as a mild right hand turn, is clearly telegraphed with the left hand coming up for the pole plant for the next turn.  Cam Skier's pole plants are very consistent and regular, as seen in the earlier video footage.  The corridor of Cam Skier's turns appears to be within 2 meters, based on assessment against the straight run tracks that can be seen in the snow. 

 

If Hat Skier had been going faster, then she (he?) would have passed Cam Skier in a shorter interval, and might have avoided a collision.  Unfortunately, Hat Skier wasn't that skilled, which is another reason for Hat Skier to leave more room when passing others.  There was still no reason to be this close in any event:  even a much more skilled skier would not have passed so closely to Cam Skier on this wide open run.

 

If Cam Skier was a bit more skilled, he might have been able to make a quick correction and turn to the left to get out of Hat Skier's way.  (Cam Skier, this is a technical observation, not intended as a slight on your ability.)  However, the fact the Cam Skier was not able to make this quick move does not mean that Cam Skier becomes responsible for Hat Skier's errant behaviour. 

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