Blending Movements - Page 12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cookie Bewley Hale 

 

I never think of extension as being the method to transfer weight early to the new ski. However, after edge change, when the skis are on their new edges, as you are moving your body even more into the turn, pumping your legs, extending and reaching, you do add more pressure to the skis, both of them with that extension move.

 

So, before edge change, the inside leg extension is mainly the knee joint extending and not so much the ankle joint. The extension is facilitating moving the CoM into the new turn, towards the cross over point at transition/edge change.  This extension is not transferring the weight early, but just beginning to move the CoM across and forward.

 

What is causing the weight to transfer are your own muscles - gradually balancing more against the new outside leg while it is still the inside leg.  I try to explain it this way.

 

Stand up. Stand on 2 feet equally. Now slowly lift one foot. As you slowly lift one foot, more weight gets transferred to the other foot. Now, try this. Stand up tall, weight on 2 feet. Now flex slowly and while flexing start to weight one foot a bit more and then extend again. Now start to play with the timing until just at the bottom of your flexing is when you start to weight one foot more. This isn't exactly like skiing at all, but it gives you the idea of how an early weight transfer works. It's a balance thing more than anything else - how you are distributing the weight from your hips to your feet.  This is why the hips are very important to be able to do any early weight transfer. If you counter or rotate your hips, you cannot as easily choose how to distribute the weight between the feet.

 

In skiing the exact timing of beginning the early weight transfer and the extending the inside leg varies with the turn dynamics - the shape, size, speed, snow etc. In a very dynamic turn, with much turn force, you need a strong, extended outside leg to hold the turn - a flexed leg is too weak. So, you need to really manage this turn force after the apex by flexing and absorbing enough of it so you can hold the edge as you guide the skis finishing the turn and also start to move to the new ski early: i.e. shortly after the apex.

 

So, does this clarify more the cause/effect issue between transferring the weight and the extension of the inside leg?

No it does not clarify because this is not what I am seeing. I see the new outside leg reaching full extension at transition/flat skis. I've personally found that opening the ankle joint as part of new turn initiation (i.e. equivalent to starting the movement at 16 seconds) enables some wonderful lturns. I can't do your exercise. In order to slowly lift one foot I have to make other simultaneous tipping movements to compensate. I can make movements with my ankles/knees, hips or head/shoulders. I'd really like to know how to distribute weight from my hips to my feet.

The point about the extension just moving the COM into the new turn is exactly the crux of the "trick" question. I believe that the old inside leg/new outside leg extension can be either purely a result of the hips pulling the leg down the hill (0 weight transfer), purely the result of weight transfer (the equivalent of taking a lateral step) or a BLEND of those 2 scenarios. The theory would be that to the extent the blend is biased towards the latter, you would have earlier weight transfer. Why was it common for racers to lift their new inside ski?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cookie Bewley Hale 

Canadians have had a more hunched over, breaking at the waist, in addition to a few other little things,  for years. PJ sort of calls it a "trademark".

 

You do want to move your body into the new turn - move it foragonally. The angle of the spine, how much forward lean it has, is part of this moving into the turn. However, comparing one skier to the next and how much it may vary is basically a matter of body proportions and equipment set up - it's all about balance and dynamic balance. 

 

The attitude of the body, spine is a matter of personal preference when you look at long back/short legs, long legs/short back, average legs and back etc. Then how their muscle and/or fat distribution is - how big is the head, etc... That part is all about balance.

 

Then you take their boots and bindings. How tipped forward are they in their equipment? How stiff are their boots? Many times, if a person cannot flex the boot, they need to break at the waist more to balance. 

 

Then you take the speed and how much they are flexing and driving their shins - normally the angle of the shin bones about equals the angle/lean of the spine...

 

So, that is elaborating more of when I said "personal preference".

 

Benefit is simply to be in dynamic balance and move into the turn - whatever it takes, how much forward lean it takes etc...

If all the Canadians do it (i.e. trademark) how can it be personal preference/body proportions? I'll bite on "dynamic balance" being the reason. Personally, I'd buy that it is stacking the head in the direction of the desired movement. But I'm not selling that concept.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cookie Bewley Hale 

Cookie had said:

 

 

 

 

Rusty replied:

Okay, here is where we disagree. I feel and do the early weight transfer not by tipping and flexing. I can tip and flex and not do an early weight transfer. I can even extend my inside leg and not do an early weight transfer. When I start transferring my weight to my new outside ski, just after the apex, just about the end of flexing, (or just while even staying flexed through the transition instead of extending) I have to make it happen. I actively take weight off my outside leg as I put more on the inside leg. You have to, I guess, learn how to do this deliberately. It won't happen naturally. You have to make it happen.

 

If you hips are too countered, you won't be able to do this easily. It is true, that if you overly counter your hips and drop them inside, you can get more weight onto your inside ski, however, this is not an early weight transfer that we are talking about. This is more sitting on the inside leg. This move limits your ability to drive your shins and edge your skis; i.e. with your hips inside your thighs are now pointing too much down the hill and you simply can't edge much more, except by pulling your whole body over to edge the skis....

 

You see this and sometimes this is actually a recovery move you see in the race course. However, it is not a "good" skiing technique.

 

So, when I'm coaching an early weight transfer, it is imperative, that the person keeps himself more squared up after the apex, with regards to his hips. 

 

 

 

So, here is the disagreement. I know that in order to do an early weight transfer, I need to have my hips more square and not countered, and certainly not at maximum counter. Shortly after I start moving to my new ski, keeping my hips still lined up with my legs, I begin to move my CoM into the new turn. This shows up as more counter with the upper body and shoulders, but not the hips yet. 

 

If you are looking at frame 16 (fourth picture), I'd go back and look at 12, the first picture. This frame I think is a much better example of what it should look like when you are beginning to transfer your weight. 12 says transfer to new ski and looking at it feels right. 16, when I look at it, I'm feeling a bit off and not really one where I'd like to be, like I was late in transferring my weight because I got my upper body too countered and to the outside too soon - I started to move to the new turn too soon. Maybe that is why 16 looks weird to you.

 

I guess you could use Frame 16 as an example of steering into counter - body going into new turn, skis finishing old.  However, IMHO, Frame 16 isn't as good as Frame 12 if you want a typical "good" example of early weight transfer. 

I don't know if I ever try to keep my hips squared up with my feet instead of my shoulders. That sounds a lot like upper body rotation to me. I agree that the body needs to be relatively square to the skis for early weight transfer to be used. I just find it ironic that the move starts at the point where the upper body is most countered to the skis.

16 does not look weird to me. The concept of using 16 to illustrate how counter can help turn initation is weird given that the clip emphasises being square to the skis. The author of clip must have chosen to use frame 16 instead of frame 12 for some reason. My suggestion is that the movements are exaaggerated more in the 16 turn because of extra tipping movements prior to 16.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Louie 

 

 

I know another skiers web site where you can take the comments above and explain it all.  I'll PM it to you if you like.

 

Meantime look closely at this picture (which I don't think is a recovery) and with any luck at all, one of the previous posters in this thread may come back and explain his view on the coments above.
 

Sheesh UL, that's early weight transfer all right, almost like White Pass turn early. Diverging skis, more snow coming off the inside ski and closer to the tip. I'd even go so far as to say the inside ski tip is flexed more. My guess here is that at least some of the extreme counter in this pic is because of trying to get around the gate, but I'd also guess that the skier kept that orientation going into the next turn. Imagine this skier going into the next turn with more weight on either foot?

It's a cool counter example, but I'd vote that this is really a different type of turn entirely. Still, one would almost have to assume that the skier was more squared up to their skis when they started to load weight on that inside ski. Hmmm.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Louie 

 

 

I know another skiers web site where you can take the comments above and explain it all.  I'll PM it to you if you like.

 

Meantime look closely at this picture (which I don't think is a recovery) and with any luck at all, one of the previous posters in this thread may come back and explain his view on the coments above. 
 

The above picture is not recovery, nor is it similar to the picture we were discussing. The skier above is in a much more dynamic turn, yes, race course, but not near a short turn like the one from the drill. However, if you will look at his hips, they are not countered, but rather still square with his legs. It is his upper body that he is moving, more to avoid the gate with his shoulder, but yes, he is definutely thinking about the next turn.

The picture we were talking about had the hips, more countered, unlike the picture you showed above.

The Rusty,

I'm surprised by your post (#329), I use cowboy turns to promote more lateral movement of the pelvis and core than to promote ankle tipping (a mis nomer because the ankle does not flex sideways BTW). Anyway, because the lateral RoM of the feet inside a ski boot is less than five degree, Inverting and Everting the Feet can certainly shift pressure inside the boot but if the boot cuff doesn't move, the edge angle doesn't change.

Simply said, the top of the tibia must move if you want the edge angle to change and moving the feet (inverting and everting them) cannot provide more that a few degrees of lateral cuff movement. Add to that the fact that the Pelvis and Core connected to the top of the femur so they also must move (relative to the edge), unless you rely exclusively on "knee angulation" (yes I know it's another mis nomer) to provide all of the edge angle changes. I think we all would agree that knee angulation isn't a bio-mechanically strong method of creating tipping and isn't the primary way racers (or anyone else) create edge angle. This means inversion / eversion cannot be the primary way they create edge angle either. At best it's a trigger for moving the entire body into the turn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by therusty 

When I say hook up I mean that the edges engage the snow more and the tips deflect at a greater rate because they are edged more.

 

At 12 seconds you can see the right foot hanging way out from underneath the hips. The right shin is at a lower angle to the snow than the left shin. It's even harder to tell if the right foot has fallen behind the hips, but it's easier to see at 13.18 seconds, I'm not calling this a timing error. I'm suggesting that this might be an element contributing to early weight transfer.

 

 

At the "12" frame, the right shin is more tipped because the knee is rotated in a bit because the skier. He is moving his body forward as he is transfering. I wouldn't say his right foot is behind or way out from underneath his hips. The knee is just a bit more inside. He has his leg out there still from being inclined more at the apex - his inside leg was flexing in the long leg/short leg attitude.

At about 12:68 he is beginning to unbend his left leg some. Prior to that he was flexing and already beginning to transfer some weight. 

He is not as "countered" as in the frame "16" shot. 

I would also say that what you are calling leaving his right leg behind his hips is more the extending with his knees and hips, moving his body more forward and into the turn. Sort of a different perspective than you are taking on the turn. By 13:15, it's already apparent that his left leg, while still not the dominant leg in regards to weight, is definitely more dominant in the leading the "moving into the new turn with the CoM". The right, outside leg is now the one that is more or less, "along for the ride".

Is this moving part of the weight transfer as you said, yes. He is actively moving more weight onto the inside leg. Is he doing this by dragging his outside leg behind his hips, no. He is moving forward and into the turn with his body while actively and progressively using his inside/left/new outside leg as the "boss".

Quote:

Originally Posted by therusty 

I use the cowboy turns drill to teach ankle tipping movements for turn initation. With the feet wider apart than the hips you can not lean into a new turn to get your mass to the inside. So the theory would be that the wider the feet are apart the easier it is to feel (and see) lower body tipping movements.

In cowboy turns, especially at lower speeds, you can have the outside leg further away from the body, just like in wedge turns. As you said, you don't lean in, but rather have that inside leg for support. Does that mean that you can "feel" the lower leg edging movments more? In an artificial way, yes, but you are isolating the lower leg in an artifical way and the way you use your lower leg in a cowboy turn isn't quite like how you use it "real" skiing. Plus, the alignment in the hips can be way off in a cowboy turn since you are not having to line up for the turn forces. 

In a cowboy turn, it's of course, impossible to work both shins together, so it's more a one-two edging of independent legs rather than using both your skis together. Plus, because your feet are wider than your hips, it's quite difficult to smoothly distribute your weight foot to foot without sashaying your hips a bit and this makes creating a smooth, progressive turn entry more difficult. As you can tell, I'm not a great fan of cowboy turns for anything. 

Instead of cowboy turns, for learning how to get the feet more out to the side and edge. I prefer high tuck turns. Go to a green slope, get into a high tuck, feet hip width apart. Go straight for a while pumping up and down only. Then as the speed increases, gradually start to ride the skis around side to side, railroad track style, reaching further and further to the skis and increasing the edge angles, Then progress these turns into some reaching, gliding, short radius turns by beginning to use more guiding and edging at the bottom of the turn. As you do this, you release the high tuck and start using a pole swing. This whole progression helps to make the lower leg more active, both at the top of the turn and the bottom of the turn - but it needs to performed with a hip width stance. You can also start working on the early weight transfer in this drill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by therusty 

I think I'm describing the start where you are describing the middle. What I'm seeing is that at 16 seconds, the upper body is beginning the cross over move. At 16-18 the skis are cutting across the path of the body. The clip says that early weight transfer starts at 16. At 16 the skis are to the left of the skier (right ski under the left hip). At 18 they are underneath the skier (right ski underneath right hip). The clip says that weight transfer starts at 16.

 

Okay, there is a big difference in BEGINNING to cross over and actually crossing over. I agree that the body begins to cross over right around the early weight transfer - exact timing varies a bit with different types of turns. So, when you said the "skis cutting across the path of the upper body", I understand now you did not mean exactly that, but rather where they were beginning to cross over/under.

So, yes the early weight transfer slides right into the beginning of the body moving towards the cross over point near transition/edge change.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by therusty 

No it does not clarify because this is not what I am seeing. I see the new outside leg reaching full extension at transition/flat skis. 

 

If you think the new outside leg reaches full extension at transition/flat skis, then look again closer to the apex of the turn.  At transition, it's still a bit flex and continues to straighten and incline all the way to the apex of the turn. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by therusty 

I've personally found that opening the ankle joint as part of new turn initiation (i.e. equivalent to starting the movement at 16 seconds) enables some wonderful lturns. I can't do your exercise. In order to slowly lift one foot I have to make other simultaneous tipping movements to compensate. I can make movements with my ankles/knees, hips or head/shoulders. I'd really like to know how to distribute weight from my hips to my feet.

 

 

In lower speed turns, that's fine. However, once you start to open you ankle joint as you extend into the new turn, BEFORE edge change, you also go "up" more instead of into the turn more. Of course, there are numerous ways to ski.  I normally prefer to wait until I'm on my new edges to finish extending completely on my outside leg. It's a long progressive movement. Maybe this explains why you think maximum extension for the outside leg is at the edge change - as you stated above.

About the exercise. I have not difficulty transferring weight foot to foot without tipping. I do feel my CoM move slowly over to be balancing over the new foot, but it's not tipping at all.  When flexed, it's just more a matter of tightening some of the core and leg while balancing on the new foot. Maybe it has to do with your feet not being under your hips if you have to move so much around to balance. Of course, you'll have to move your balance point slightly over the weighted foot, but no gross tipping or anything. 

I don't understand what you mean by how to distribute your weight from your hips to your feet. It just does that because of your skeletal structure. You can use more or less muscles depending on how you are aligning your bones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by therusty 

The point about the extension just moving the COM into the new turn is exactly the crux of the "trick" question. I believe that the old inside leg/new outside leg extension can be either purely a result of the hips pulling the leg down the hill (0 weight transfer), purely the result of weight transfer (the equivalent of taking a lateral step) or a BLEND of those 2 scenarios. The theory would be that to the extent the blend is biased towards the latter, you would have earlier weight transfer. Why was it common for racers to lift their new inside ski?

 

So, if you were not so intent on trying to "trick" anyone, maybe you could more easily say what you want.

I already said that you can move your CoM down the hill without any early weight transfer. This means that moving the CoM is not how the weight transfer has to be done.

On the other hand, you can use your CoM and take a lateral step, so to speak, over to your inside/new outside leg to transfer weight, but this is not the option that I was saying I prefer to use.

You can also drop your hips in instead of stepping laterally to transfer weight, but this also is not the option I was describing. 

There are many ways of transferring your weight and you can blend them too. 

However, the one that you are missing is what I have been talking about. Perhaps, you are not familiar with it and that is why I am having trouble trying to explain it to you. You soften, the old leg, balancing more on the new leg, using your muscles, against the natural turn forces, to early start to transfer your weight. You can combine this with the "push" feeling just before off your old outside leg, or the clawing, without the push, feeling - or however you want to blend or describe it. It's a subtle, very active movement within your legs and core. That is why it is very hard to "see" happening. You see the effects finally, but not the movement itself.

Lifting the new inside ski is another issue with many different possible causes and reasons. You need to see when the inside ski is being lifted, speed, turn shape, terrain etc. It's hard to generalize on that without knowing the specific instance.

Cookie previously:

Quote:

Originally Posted by therusty 

I don't know if I ever try to keep my hips squared up with my feet instead of my shoulders. That sounds a lot like upper body rotation to me. I agree that the body needs to be relatively square to the skis for early weight transfer to be used. I just find it ironic that the move starts at the point where the upper body is most countered to the skis.

16 does not look weird to me. The concept of using 16 to illustrate how counter can help turn initation is weird given that the clip emphasises being square to the skis. The author of clip must have chosen to use frame 16 instead of frame 12 for some reason. My suggestion is that the movements are exaaggerated more in the 16 turn because of extra tipping movements prior to 16.

More square, not exactly square. George Twardoken (sp?) wrote an excellent book years back about the rotation of the lower extremities. If you look at the skeleton, you see the femurs coming out of the hips. Even though there is a ball joint, how the hips are oriented along the z axis (rotated, countered) effects how the femurs can be used.

It is not upper body rotation, but whether you are keeping your hips more with your lower body and legs (where they are attached) or keeping your hips more with your shoulders.

Sit in a chair. Now staying sited, rotate your upper body and shoulders. Notice the hips stay with your legs, seated on the chair. What twists is your spinal column. 

The move to an active weight transfer does not start where the upper body is most countered to the skis. That is why I said to compare the "12" and the "16" frame. The moving the upper body into the new turn starts to happen just after the starting the early weight transfer. 

The countering is the result of the skis steering more across the hill to finish the turn while the upper body is moving into the new turn. It's the result of the two different paths being taken. An early weight transfer does not occur at the point where they are the most diverging, but before it. That is what I tried to show you by comparing the frames in my earlier reply.

Quote:

Originally Posted by therusty 

16 does not look weird to me. The concept of using 16 to illustrate how counter can help turn initation is weird given that the clip emphasises being square to the skis. The author of clip must have chosen to use frame 16 instead of frame 12 for some reason. My suggestion is that the movements are exaaggerated more in the 16 turn because of extra tipping movements prior to 16.

I don't think that counter is being used for turn initiation at all. The author of the clip also chose "12" - he wrote at "12" - "Ankeny begins transferring weight to the left ski, while it is on its uphill edge". 

At "16" he wrote - "Weight begins to transfer to the right ski.Can be done because of matching edge angles between inside and outside ski (parallel shins) and a stance that is fairly square to the skis."

Both the author and I agree that we are saying fairly square due to the hips being aligned more with the legs, not the upper body/shoulders already moving into the new turn. SO neither one of us was calling it a countered stance. That is your interpretation of it because of what you are looking at in the shoulders and upper body.

The upper body timing is what is different between "12" and "16", not the legs and stance and hips. - as well as the slightly different camera angle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by therusty 

Sheesh UL, that's early weight transfer all right, almost like White Pass turn early. Diverging skis, more snow coming off the inside ski and closer to the tip. I'd even go so far as to say the inside ski tip is flexed more. My guess here is that at least some of the extreme counter in this pic is because of trying to get around the gate, but I'd also guess that the skier kept that orientation going into the next turn. Imagine this skier going into the next turn with more weight on either foot?

 

It's a cool counter example, but I'd vote that this is really a different type of turn entirely. Still, one would almost have to assume that the skier was more squared up to their skis when they started to load weight on that inside ski. Hmmm.
 

 Look closely at the hips. Now look at the shoulders. There is a twist in the body. The hips are with the legs, they are square as they can be with that inside leg being so flexed.  The upper body is actually also pretty square and only countered a bit. It is the inclination and fold at the waist and how the right hand is up that tends to give the impression of more counter. The hips are pretty square and he is able to beginning to set up and engage his inside/new outside ski. However, here the turn forces are still too great and he need to definitely use the strength in that extended outside leg to stay in the turn. In the following frames, you would see him trying to minimize that pressure as much as he can by flexing which will enable him to transfer more weight early as he moves his body on that different line into the new turn and the skis finish the old turn.

Rusty - just wanted to let you know that I don't see your comments as "polluting" us!!!

Happy 4th - off now to the festivities here!

Regards, 

Cookie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cookie Bewley Hale 

 

If you hips are too countered, you won't be able to do this easily. It is true, that if you overly counter your hips and drop them inside, you can get more weight onto your inside ski, however, this is not an early weight transfer that we are talking about. This is more sitting on the inside leg. This move limits your ability to drive your shins and edge your skis; i.e. with your hips inside your thighs are now pointing too much down the hill and you simply can't edge much more, except by pulling your whole body over to edge the skis....

 

You see this and sometimes this is actually a recovery move you see in the race course. However, it is not a "good" skiing technique.

 

So, when I'm coaching an early weight transfer, it is imperative, that the person keeps himself more squared up after the apex, with regards to his hips.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Louie 

 

 

I know another skiers web site where you can take the comments above and explain it all.  I'll PM it to you if you like.

 

Meantime look closely at this picture (which I don't think is a recovery)

Cookie,

Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could all make turns like the one UL posted

I find your post baffling .  When I lose energy in a turn during early weight transfer, it's usually because I've gotten lazy and given up some of my counter (counteracting), hip angulation (counterbalance), or have quit increasing the tipping to the LTE of my inside ski.  Losing the counter early also impairs my ability to stay forward on my inside, soon-to-be stance ski -- it's easier to contract the inside leg hamstrings to pull that ski back from a skeletally strong countered position prior to transferring significant weight to it than from a compromised squared hip position.

In fact, I've spent a goodly sum of money on coaching to increase my counter and inside leg tipping as I transfer weight (often 100%) to it.  So I know from first-hand experience that your criticism doesn't apply when my skeleton, musculature, footbeds and aligned bootplates are the system under observation. Counter is a key to skiing on my inside leg.   I've watched enough other skiers focus on these tasks to believe it generally doesn't apply to them either.

(Caveat:  It may be that skiers with stiff footbeds, skiers in ill-fitting rental boots, or poorly aligned skiers, all of whom rely on gross movements of the upper kinetic chain to ski, may experience things differently.  I'm not an alignment guru and wouldn't know.)

Let me acknowledge up front that squared hips have a place at times when used by elite athletes playing dangerous balance games on ice to gain hundredths of a second.  In my opinion, skiers who have not distinguished themselves on the NorAm or Europa cup or achieved WC points have more important skiing improvement priorities than this.  Since this thread is not about WC skiing, I don't see a legitimate place for squared hips in it.

Racers counter to offset the passive rotation of the femurs towards the inside of the turn induced when they tip / edge their skis with the foot inverters and evertors ("roll their ankles".)  If unchecked, that rotation would both make it difficult to initiate a carve -- its hard to start a carve on firm snow with a twisting ski -- and would put the skier in a skeletally weak position.  While a skier can in principle use up all of the protective counter range of motion, especially if undercanted, further edging is always possible up until boot-out ... no matter which leg bears the skier's weight.  Going square before transition gives up half  the counter ROM available to counteract the rotational effects of tipping into the next turn ... going square before transition spells impending doom to a carve.

This counter should be held until the last possible split second to avoid losing the energy of the turn and the skier's balance.  If you want to see masterful examples of holding counter to the last split second and deriving great benefit from it, have a look at Bode Miller's skiing in his better years.  I think it's fair to say that he can execute early weight transfer effectively when he wants to.  It's also worth noting that even when he squares his hips early in a turn, he often turns on strong counter to finish the turn, 90* out of phase with the timing you advocate.  For examples in shorter turns, view any slalom run by Herbst or Grange and look for the tight turns with big ski angles.  To my way of thinking, holding counter to the last split second is skiing's equivalent of swing follow-through in tennis or baseball.

The skier in UL's post exhibits nice edge angles, counter, and the beginnings of weight transfer.  I can see how one might intuit that the skier is square from the 2-D projection of their body position -- the camera angle emphasizes other aspects of the turn.  And psychological studies show just how much we use our expectations to fill in the gaps in cases like this . 

But what you call in a later post this skier's upper body "bend" to laterally counterbalance and avoid hitting the gate is the smoking gun proof that this skier is countered and not square as you assert.  The skier is obviously bending foward and using the rectus abdominis to assist in this "bend" rather than relying on the obliques to "side crunch" into that position.  The only way to bring the rectus abdominis into play in lateral counterbalance is to counter; a square skier can only use the obliques.   For confirmation, look at the twist in the shoulders relative to the direction of the skis.

Well that's my two bits.  Back to occasional lurker mode.

SE are you still coaching the Austrians? Is it possible that the US and Austrians don't see eye to eye on this any more than you and Cookie?

Originally posted by Cookie (in black)

I'm not too sure we are talking about counter the same. Why don't you tell me what you mean by your counter? Is it your hips or your torso and shoulders? Counter isn't the same as hip angulation. However, over countering the of the hips prevents edging your inside ski. I'm not too sure what you mean by losing the counter early. Normally, you are pretty square at the apex and not countered much at all. If you read the notes in the video, I'm on the same page regarding hips and counter and early weight transfer, so are you saying you disagree with that? I'm not saying anything different. I was just elaborating on it more from personal experience.

*I was going to ask you the same question about your thoughts on what counter was.  I think I can give you the nickel's worth on this.

*Yes it is hips / torso / shoulders

*It's not the same as hip angulation (SE covered that in his post when he mentioned Counteracting and Counter balance.

*On "losing counter early" the best thing I can do is tell you to head to your own "page 8 drawing" and picture the torso/hips/shoulders facing from transition point to transition point vs transition to apex to transition.

You don't have to agree, of course.  We have had other groups come to Epic in the past with a whole new set of definitions for commonly understood terms.  It took better than a year to find a common language.  I would like to avoid the loss of time and I also need us all on the same page for my next post.

Blending movements

Lets talk about tipping.....

Tipping is often refered to as "tipping" but what is tipping? IMO tipping is a word used to describe our skis "tipping". Increasing edge angle. If we put a ski on a table with a boot in place and move the boot shaft from side to side the ski will be tipping from one edge to annother. In other words, it is not a body movement. Its just a word describing our skis tipping. More tipping = higher edge angles.

Lets put our boots on and step into our bindings with about 10cm between the ski and place most of our weight on the left foot. Now try to mimic the back and forth movement of the boot shaft on the table with your right foot. You can do this without skis and boots if you pretend you are in your skiing gear and your ancle being stiff. You will find out that the movement when isolated is your knee going back and forth sideways. How is this possible since your knee does not bend sideways? Its because your femure rotates in the hip socket. It is a knee pointing movement. Its femure rotation. Now do it with both your feet. Try to keep your hips facing forwards. Legs in a skiing stance. Since you are not strapped in your boots and skis try to extend your legs fully and tip your skis. You cant. You can actually a little bit with your ancle but the tipping movement is much much less than if you bend at your knees. The more you bend the bigger is the knee pointing range.

In addition to femure rotation and ancle rolling you can tip by lifting one foot up in the air. Or reduce pressure on it. Reduce weight. Flex one foot. This will cause imbalance and you will start falling in that direction. This will cause your skis to tip onto their edges.

So what is the difference between tipping by femure rotation and by flexing one foot? On big difference is that femure rotation is instant. As soon as you crank your knees eather way the skis will be tipping. When flexing one foot there is a slight delay. Depending offcourse how wide your stance is. A wider stance will cause faster tipping.

Now lets talk angulation and counter....

Angulation is thaught of as bending sideways at the waist. Annother definition would be a side ways bend of the upper body when looked from the front. This definition allows upper body counter and folding at the waist to qualify as "angulation". Knee angulation would be femure rotation. Lots of different definitions. But fact is that upper body movements are very much linked to each other. If angulation is bending sideways at the waist and counter is turning the upper body facing outwards in the turn then its easier to see what is going on.

But upper body can be divided into hips, waist and shoulders. How do we know what part of the body is square and what is countered. And what part is rotated. Its pritty konfusing to say the least.

Skiing is about blending movements. The skill of analyzing skiing is to be able to brake down the movements and isolate them from each other. And its about finding similarities, not differences.

My comments are in blue folks.

Sharpedges, I hope you don't mind that I did a little "window dressing" on your post.  I want any of the less technical skiers (who I hope are) still reading here to understand the "why part".
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharpedges 

 

Cookie

 

I find your post baffling .  When I lose energy in a turn during early weight transfer,(which has to happen because you are yielding to forces that are still building)  it's usually because I've gotten lazy and given up some of my counter (counteracting), hip angulation (counterbalance), or have quit increasing the tipping (which will happen if you rise / extend) to the LTE of my inside ski.  Losing the counter early also impairs my ability to stay forward on my inside, soon-to-be stance ski -- it's easier to contract the inside leg hamstrings to pull that ski back from a skeletally strong countered position prior to transferring significant weight to it than from a compromised squared hip position.

 

Below is a picture, which I moved here.  Everything in the paragraph above is in this picture and the results are noted in the description below the picture.

 

 

Cookie said  "Right before edge change. Crossing over/under. He is back and he shouldn't be. He is not trying to work the tail of the ski. He got late and popped by the rebound." 

 

*****************************************************************************************************************************************

 

 

But what you call in a later post this skier's upper body "bend" to laterally counterbalance and avoid hitting the gate is the smoking gun proof that this skier is countered and not square as you assert.  The skier is obviously bending forward and using the rectus abdominis to assist in this "bend" rather than relying on the obliques to "side crunch" into that position.  The only way to bring the rectus abdominis into play in lateral counterbalance is to counter; a square skier can only use the obliques.   For confirmation, look at the twist in the shoulders relative to the direction of the skis. (and note the position of the head and the skis vs the position of the shoulders)

 

 

 

IMHO there is no "new outside ski" in this photo. There is only one outside ski and that is his right ski. The words new/old outside/inside ski should be used only when there is doubt of which ski is which. Like in a transition. This is far from a transition.

IMHO there is also no "early weight transfer" in the photo. The word "weight transfer" refers to weight being transfered from one ski to annother. In this particular photo there is no more or no less weight on eather ski one fraction of a moment later for any other reason than coincidal. If I look at the pressure diagrams from our wc skiers a few years back there is a significant pressure reduction on "both" skis at transition. Too much focus here on early weight transfer. Fact is that both skis need to be performing when you turn. Especially at the end of the turn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Louie 

My comments are in blue folks.

 

Sharpedges, I hope you don't mind that I did a little "window dressing" on your post.  I want any of the less technical skiers (who I hope are) still reading here to understand the "why part".
 

That is helpful.  This is why most technical manuals (in the military) are written on no more than a 6th grade reading ability; everyone gets to understand.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by justanotherskipro 

The Rusty,

I'm surprised by your post (#329), I use cowboy turns to promote more lateral movement of the pelvis and core than to promote ankle tipping (a mis nomer because the ankle does not flex sideways BTW). Anyway, because the lateral RoM of the feet inside a ski boot is less than five degree, Inverting and Everting the Feet can certainly shift pressure inside the boot but if the boot cuff doesn't move, the edge angle doesn't change.

Simply said, the top of the tibia must move if you want the edge angle to change and moving the feet (inverting and everting them) cannot provide more that a few degrees of lateral cuff movement. Add to that the fact that the Pelvis and Core connected to the top of the femur so they also must move (relative to the edge), unless you rely exclusively on "knee angulation" (yes I know it's another mis nomer) to provide all of the edge angle changes. I think we all would agree that knee angulation isn't a bio-mechanically strong method of creating tipping and isn't the primary way racers (or anyone else) create edge angle. This means inversion / eversion cannot be the primary way they create edge angle either. At best it's a trigger for moving the entire body into the turn.

yeah, yeah - inversion/eversion ... misnomers ... you try to write the stuff simple without the big words and this is what happens. You know exactly what I'm trying to teach and why. Thank you.

 

I'm going out on a limb here but...

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdk6 

 

IMHO there is no "new outside ski" in this photo. There is only one outside ski and that is his right ski. The words new/old outside/inside ski should be used only when there is doubt of which ski is which. Like in a transition. This is far from a transition.

 

Isn't at the gate where you start ILE and if it is, wouldn't that be the start of the (weight) transition?

 

IMHO there is also no "early weight transfer" in the photo. The word "weight transfer" refers to weight being transfered from one ski to annother. In this particular photo there is no more or no less weight on eather ski one fraction of a moment later for any other reason than coincidal. If I look at the pressure diagrams from our wc skiers a few years back there is a significant pressure reduction on "both" skis at transition. Too much focus here on early weight transfer. Fact is that both skis need to be performing when you turn. Especially at the end of the turn.

 

But the skis are diverging.  If the weight was equal, wouldn't he do a split?

Ken
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cookie Bewley Hale 

 

In a cowboy turn, it's of course, impossible to work both shins together, so it's more a one-two edging of independent legs rather than using both your skis together. Plus, because your feet are wider than your hips, it's quite difficult to smoothly distribute your weight foot to foot without sashaying your hips a bit and this makes creating a smooth, progressive turn entry more difficult. As you can tell, I'm not a great fan of cowboy turns for anything. 

 

Personally, I've discovered that the more impossible a drill is, the more I need to learn. Next up for me is one footed bump skiing.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cookie Bewley Hale 

In lower speed turns, that's fine. However, once you start to open you ankle joint as you extend into the new turn, BEFORE edge change, you also go "up" more instead of into the turn more.

You won't go up if you BLEND the ankle movement with inside leg flex and forward hip movement. Plantar flexion can be used to help drive "fore-agonal" movement (that is one of the concepts I like, but it's not without its own controversy). Speed has nothing to do with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cookie Bewley Hale 

However, the one that you are missing is what I have been talking about. Perhaps, you are not familiar with it and that is why I am having trouble trying to explain it to you. You soften, the old leg, balancing more on the new leg, using your muscles, against the natural turn forces, to early start to transfer your weight. You can combine this with the "push" feeling just before off your old outside leg, or the clawing, without the push, feeling - or however you want to blend or describe it. It's a subtle, very active movement within your legs and core. That is why it is very hard to "see" happening. You see the effects finally, but not the movement itself.

 

Lifting the new inside ski is another issue with many different possible causes and reasons. You need to see when the inside ski is being lifted, speed, turn shape, terrain etc. It's hard to generalize on that without knowing the specific instance.

I'm missing that? Hmmm. OK - perhaps one of our level 3 certs here could better explain it to me. In the meantime, I'm trying to relate those differences to different turn shape outcomes. You'd think if  movements (active or passive) were being made, they could be seen.

I don't find it hard to generalize racers lifting the inside ski. I see old time racers doing this all the time. I was talking about standard race technique from years ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharpedges 

 

Racers counter to offset the passive rotation of the femurs towards the inside of the turn induced when they tip / edge their skis with the foot inverters and evertors ("roll their ankles".)  If unchecked, that rotation would both make it difficult to initiate a carve -- its hard to start a carve on firm snow with a twisting ski -- and would put the skier in a skeletally weak position.  While a skier can in principle use up all of the protective counter range of motion, especially if undercanted, further edging is always possible up until boot-out ... no matter which leg bears the skier's weight.  Going square before transition gives up half  the counter ROM available to counteract the rotational effects of tipping into the next turn ... going square before transition spells impending doom to a carve.

There has been a push in the last few years to use less counter. In the USSA clip, they talk about how being square helps to facilitate early weight transfer. But the exact text is "fairly square". This implies some counter.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cookie Bewley Hale 

The above picture is not recovery, nor is it similar to the picture we were discussing. The skier above is in a much more dynamic turn, yes, race course, but not near a short turn like the one from the drill. However, if you will look at his hips, they are not countered, but rather still square with his legs.

Well, you could look at it this way ....

The orange line on the left is against the edge of the outside ski showing which direction the ski is pointed. The second orange line is a copy moved to where the hips would need to be pointing if they were pointing in the same direction. The thick black line shows the orientation of the upper body. From this perspective there is not much counter here. If you check out the thin black line, ok may be a little.

Or - you could look at it this way:

Here, the yellow lines show the inside ski orientation, red for the hips, orange for the chest and green for the shoulders. Still not much difference, but counter is more visible.

Or you could look at this way:

If the lines between the ski tips are parallel to the lines between the hips and the shoulders then we are square.

The hips can turn with either the legs or the shoulders or be partly in between. The belt line is obscured in this photo. Still my observation is that this skier is countered. Counter is in the eye of the beholder?

I believe the point UL was trying to make was that it's not impossible to load the inside ski from a countered position. Assuming for a second that this skier is countered, it does not prove the point because the ski is already loaded. It does not show the beginning of the loading from a countered position. To be more relevant to the discussion, it does not show early weight transfer beginning from a heavily countered position. The point in the USSA clip was that being "fairly square" facilitated ealy weight transfer. I agree with that.

Somehow I have a feeling that you need to move beyond you PSIAMAN mentality to see what Cookie is talking about. The classic “early weight transfer” is the key to all around good skiing. This "no name" (but if you are Heavenly locals, you probably know of him well,) skier leads his turns by moving the weight first,

Quote:

Originally Posted by therusty 

I'm missing that? Hmmm. OK - perhaps one of our level 3 certs here could better explain it to me. In the meantime, I'm trying to relate those differences to different turn shape outcomes. You'd think if  movements (active or passive) were being made, they could be seen.

 

I don't find it hard to generalize racers lifting the inside ski. I see old time racers doing this all the time. I was talking about standard race technique from years ago.

Just click on the little filmstrip icon above the post edit window and insert the URL

Oh my.. so much and I have to go to the job site... I've only got time for one reply before I go...

Okay first I think some things about who said what is getting confused. I never spoke about loosing counter early, I don't think like that. That was Sharpedges. I roughly picture the torso facing where it's going next, more apex to apex which goes through the transition point/edge change. 

I don't really think I'm redefining counter, but rather using a very widely held understanding, very traditional. The whole concept of needing counter rotation was in the 1960's is has some, but more limited applications to skiing today. (The whole body rotation was in the 1920's and with the rocker skis, that is making a bit of a comeback.)

Here is a link I previously posted about the counter idea. The upper and lower body take different lines, they start their movements to the new turn at different times. Counter is developed when the skis travel a different path under the upper body. Counter is not the upper body rotating to "counteract" the skis, but rather the result of the upper body travelling along its path while the skis go their way.

The hips go with the lower body and the shoulders with the upper body. I think this is really confusing point for many people looking at skiers. They seem to look mainly at the upper body and shoulders and do not notice the slight twist in the spine and the orientation of the hips.

Here is one link:

Ted Ligety - listen to him. I'm on the same page with everything there - facing the apex, balance against outside ski, early pressure/weight transfer, hips more square.

And then the early weight link at dartfish - the hips square for early weight.

http://www.dartfish.tv/Player.aspx?CR=p1490c3372m71994&CL=1

I hope the above videos and explanations help to explain what I mean when I say counter.

So, I'm still not sure what SE meant about loosing counter early. If someone has some video clips that illustrate that, that would be great.  I'm kind of guess what is being meant is more the "face down hill" in your transition to transition comment along with some of the "dropping the hip to the inside and pulling the legs over to edge".  I'm still trying to figure out how counter would directly effect edging as SE said.  SE connected hip angulation with counter too. I can see why he might do that, but it is possible to have hip angulation with no counter. So, all those connections led me to question what he meant then by counter and a video would help me understand what movement patterns he is talking about.

Off to work and back later for more of this time hog at Epic...