From the grave - maybe I am a ghost now too? I just can't be serious about this I guess.... I get over things pretty quickly.
First a few housekeeping clarifications:
Ghost - I brought up video of myself, because I was asked if I had video of myself. I was asked about who was I to talk. That is why I mentioned it. I didn't think it mattered, but it does to Sharpedges I guess, not you. The reason I brought up RonLM and HH is because they were brought up previously and the discussion here has promoted both of their concepts. I also did receive a message from Epic telling me to not post old videos of HH and mock his skiing, which I hadn't done. (I am still curious why I was the proud recipient of that message) I have posted old videos of PJ, not HH and I have only compared HH with PJ's modern skiing to illustrate that they both were going "up", which HH and SkiDude and TDK do not promote. I was also asked to not ask SkiDude what he was on because that is an attack on him personally. So I deleted that comment in my post.
Ghost - I think I came up with a new way of explaining "extension" into a turn, prior to transition - and invented a new word to use in ski coaching - the BOSS leg instead of the BOS. BOSS leg means the boss, the head honcho, the one in charge. Maybe this will help get by the concept that flexing or extending the BOS leg is what determines flexion or extension... and also the concept that you cannot be increasing the distance between the COM and the BOS if you haven't yet reached transition and the outside leg is still flexed....
I am trying as sincerely as I can to explain this to you all....
It seems that in the turns as described by cookie, at a point after apex, the cm's path being well diverged from the path of the skis and while on it's way to make a new turn, can have its momentum into the new turn modified by the small component of resistance of some extension (defining the extension as an increasing distance from the current (and everchanging) BOS while still on it's way into the new turn.
For me, that is very complicated.... I"m trying to figure out what you actually just said. I'm not sure I get the "modified by the small component of resistance of some extension".
On initiating the new turn, here is how it feels and looks to me:
1. Right after apex, as pressure builds, and I flex to manage it, the first move is that I make is that the inside leg starts to become the "boss" leg - the one in charge of the turn. As I flex, I start to transfer more of the pressure onto it. It now is becoming the "boss" leg. It was the inside leg and now it has become labeled the new outside leg, the future BOS, the new BOSS leg.
2. As I start to switch dominant legs, I start extending into the new turn with my body. My BOSS inside leg starts extending.
3. My inside leg is more dominant in that it is the BOSS now, but it does't yet have more pressure on it. My body is moving towards the new turn. My skis are still finishing the old turn - in the old arc.
4. At transition, my skis now start the new turn on their new edges, by new boss leg is now going to become more dominant also with more pressure on it, the BOS. My body is continuing on the path that it started right after the apex of the turn.
Filling in the blanks a bit more with these notes:
The extension does not add any component of "resistance". It goes with the turn forces; thus the turn forces help energize the extension.
You guide your upper body, using these turn forces along with one leg getting longer (the BOSS leg) faster than the other leg, which may still be getting shorter.
You do feel like you are pushing - first pushing or even clawing our way onto that new BOSS leg. In a high speed turn, that is a lot of work sometimes...
Second, you feel like you are pushing yourself down the hill - foreagonally - into the new turn - both before and after transition - with your BOSS leg.
I realize there is some difficulty grasping the fact that, prior to transition, as our body is approaching the cross over/under, you can actually be extending. This is mainly due to the different rates at which your legs are extending and flexing... Sometimes, like when you "pop", you are a heck of a lot longer at transition; other times, you are not that much longer. And yes, you can stay the same about, but that is difficult and will not allow you to accelerate as much as you could.
However, it should not be surprising that you are not as flexed at transition as you were at the bottom of the turn.
At the bottom of the turn, the turn forces are compressing you. You flex to manage the turn forces, to reduce them as much as you can. Looking at Ted, you see him both talking about this and doing this .He was flexing to minimize them as much as possible. He was going with them to do this, but resisting just enough to maintain his angles so he could keep his skis edged.
So at the bottom of the turn, a lot of force to get you short.
Now consider transition. Shortly after the apex, you start to move your body with the turn forces more. By transition, you are moving more with them, they are not compressing you. You are no longer resisting them hardly at all, but even trying to push yourself into the new turn, to go with them even more, to accelerate.
So,at transition, not much force and you have been trying to move into the turn for a while, so you are not so short.
Does this "new" invented concept of the BOSS leg help?
This is extending into the new turn, but the extension at this point isn't causing (dare I say pushing?) the body to move into the new turn, which won,t happen until the cm is actually inside the skis in the new turn.
The extension is "pushing" from the start - softening the old outside leg, while extending, pushing on the new leg. This leg action, along with your stomach muscles, guiding your body, (along with the energy from going with the turn forces) are what are mainly responsible for extension. This is extension in a forward and diagnal direction, not the classic extension that was more up and back.
The body is moving into the new turn long before it is "inside" the new turn. You are "pushing" your body with your inside leg long before you are at transition and the body crosses over to on the inside.
The extension is lifting the cm and allowing momentum to win a little bit more of the battle against the skis which are now lower compared to the cm and less "in the way".
There is some up in a way, but more foragonal - and since you are going downhill, that up is more downhill....And yes, you are allowig the momentum to win some here. I'm not sure I understand the skis being "lower" and less "in the way".
Once the cm actually crosses over the skis, we can extend into the new turn where the extension actually pushes us into a more inclined position (something easily overdone and a hindrance to learning should it be attempted by most (97%) skiers).
Yes, but the "pushing" was going on before transition too. It's just the relative differences of the directions of the skis and the body and the shape of the turn that determines whether you are inclining more or inclining less.
Pushing on skis that are outside the turn compared to where the cm is in the turn is extending into the turn, with a little more meaning read into the phrase "extending into the turn", than simply extending while moving into the turn.
How about extending to move into the new turn, then extending to the inside through the turn.
If you are moving right across this page ----> and your feet are down below you and to the right of you and you push
.......\ up and to the left as your moving right, the push/extension isn't moving you into the new turn, but you are extending and you are moving into the new turn. A less cunning linguist might still call this extending into the new turn, but I would prefer having a double meaning.
That would be correct if you were pushing up and to the left. Why do that? That is not what you "should" be doing if extending in a modern turn.
The difference here is that you don't push up and to the left to extend. You push more down and to the right. That is extending into the new turn. In classic extension, you pushed up and to the left, or back up the hill. In modern extension, it's the opposite. You both let momentum and gravity win, as well as push foragonally in the direction of the new turn.
Another thing you can do is not extend at all and just let the slope falling away give you the needed elevation, snap into the new turn from a sudden release with nothing holding you back, and extend and push only once you have cleared the skis.
Yes, there are many many ways to turn. We were discussing the blend in Ligety's turns though.
Both turns are fun. I' sure Ted could make either turn depending on his current need in a SL course.
Yes, I agree. He can. He is amazing to ski behind when free skiing too.
This is just my unqualified opinion of course, but I think it can stand on its own merit.
I agree. I hope though that maybe you can understand a bit more what I am saying. And maybe others can too.
Thank you too.