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M/A question

post #1 of 44
Thread Starter 
What would you find more educational, participating in or auditing a movement analysis of a skier without technical deficiencies or one with technical deficiencies and why?
post #2 of 44
Nolo- Where are you going to find a skier without any technical deficency's???

Both/ Do a split screen to compare and contrast.

It depends on what the desired outcome was. If it was to coach someone on how to better do needs assesment I would go with the deficencys skier as there would be more visual cue for someone learning, easier for them to pick out movements. If it was a coaching or more advanced group situation for there improvement in skiing I would go with the clean version to better visualize and ground correct movements. Tough to be either/or I think we need both.

[ July 12, 2002, 06:00 AM: Message edited by: Todo ]
post #3 of 44
Agreed - I find it better when I can compare the video of myself & my instructor on the same terrain. It gives me a better idea of what he wants me to do/correct.
post #4 of 44
Thread Starter 
Maybe I should explain the purpose of the question. I have been thinking about some of the suggestions we've batted around in Feeding Habits, one of which is to get streaming video on this site.

Say we got Bob Barnes to lead a tutorial on Video Movement Analysis. What would you want to learn from Bob and the other pros in such a tutorial?

As Todo said, there are advantages to looking at "regular, flawed, imperfect" skiing and "superlative, clean, and efficient" skiing. Obviously I agree that we would want to look at both--one for diagnostics and the other for the benchmark.

Todo, I'll bet you ski clean enough for the benchmark study and so do a number of pros on this site. You are not "perfect" but close enough for the task I've described, no?
post #5 of 44
Watching and analyzing skiers with technical deficiencies at first was very alluring to me. It satisfied my analytic leanings and I thought it gave me a good understanding of how to pintpoint areas for improvement both for myself and others. With more experience I think I would now prefer to have more opportunity to participate in M/A of higher level skiing. I especially like to try to pinpoint and build upon those (few?) aspects of top level skiing that I can see reflected (even if a bit distorted) in my own skiing.

One difficulty in this area, however, is that I often find that people seem to be very biased, frequently focusing on those things they are oriented towards and looking (sometimes imagining?) their existence. For example, I can't say that I frequently buy into all or even most of what is said in a M/A here on Epic or in some of the video review sessions I have participated in. Although I have limited experience in M/A of higher level skiing (world class racers, free skiers, etc.) I find this to be expecially true in this environment. Thus, with time I am tending to downplay a bit (not totally) the value of M/A.
post #6 of 44
Thread Starter 

Most of us are biased to visual cues in learning. Video is a movement display. Would it not be educational to learn how to observe skiing in order to separate the causes from the effects--which presumably would raise awareness about one's own causes and effects--which could then be incorporated as improvements in one's own skiing?
post #7 of 44

Having an online MA tutorial would be wonderful.

Over the last two seasons I've had the pleasure of working with Bob Barnes in his evening MA training sessions and would love to see him "guide" but not own such a thread. He has enough on his plate.

I would strongly support a process similar to the Bob's MA training in that we need in the early stages to establish a fundamental understanding of the basic mechanical underpinnings of good skiing. From there you can begin to recognize differences, the impact of those differences and then address possible solutions. You hit it on the head -cause and effect. As all of us who have done clinics know there is a tendancy of many, both instructors and general public, to address symptoms and not root causes.

I do agree with the thought we need to see both "good" and "bad". I believe that will provide a great educational tool.

Getting video available could be a problem just because of the download times, as proved in the MA threads I put out earlier this summer. Maybe somebody knows an easier way.

Now, if somebody could tell me why I can't play in a golf tournament where I don't get clobbered by lightening, hail, torrential rain. high winds, cold, ash from forest fires, etc.,etc. I'll be a happy camper. I'm 5 for 5 this season-must be bad karma. :
post #8 of 44
I think it's a great idea. I would like to see some M/A of higher level skiing to prepare for a
PSIA exam early next winter. Download times should not be a problem for those of us with high speed modems. I'd be happy to help.
post #9 of 44
Originally posted by nolo:

Most of us are biased to visual cues in learning. Video is a movement display. Would it not be educational to learn how to observe skiing in order to separate the causes from the effects--which presumably would raise awareness about one's own causes and effects--which could then be incorporated as improvements in one's own skiing?
Not to be too argumentative but I have to admit I am torn a bit by your question. I agree about visual cues and learning and as we've discussed think there is a role for observing expert performance as a component of learning in any sport (the idea of Sybervision?).

But.... There is a devil in the details here I think. When we get down to step by step analysis of the movement I think we can sometimes do as much harm as good. This relates to the concepts of explicit and implicit learning I've talked about. Determination of root causes and design of cues or instruction to address these is frequently not a strengh of M/A. These require not only good observational/analysis skills but an open mind, broad experience, and at least a workable coneptual model of the movement learning process (skiing in this case).

With that said, I too think it would be a fantastic experience to do some of this on Epic. If nothing else I would find it extremely valuable in building my own conceptual model of skiing movements. Given the expertise here, though, I also expect I would get some good insight on "causes" and a variety of approaches for dealing with these.
post #10 of 44
Thread Starter 
Would you be willing to pay someone, such as Bob, to lead the tutorial and AC to host the streamer?

The M/A clinic could be a pilot test of a way for EpicSki to produce revenues for operations. If the community is willing, of course.

EDIT: added "someone, such as" so as not to put too much pressure on Bob, although we all know
nobody would do it better!

[ July 12, 2002, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: nolo ]
post #11 of 44
Nolo- I think is a great idea, I have had the best time on some of the video that people have been nice enough to put up. I enjoy seeing, hearing and comparing how we all look at skiers. It is interesting the different cause and effect, desired outcome interpratation each person brings to the dialoge. As for your question not as unflawed as often as I would like that's what makes this such a fun sport you can always improve! (all of it)
post #12 of 44
MA sounds like a great idea. But why would you limit it to a particular ability level? Wouldn't offering a variety of skier abilities be of greater benefit?
If you’re looking for victims….ah….. I mean volunteers I’m available.

[ July 13, 2002, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: BillA ]
post #13 of 44
Thread Starter 
I would not want to limit the population at all. But I might want to set some guidelines on the shoot and the submission:

I'd like to see twenty turns, with the camera midway and far enough to the side to get about a 40% frontal view; 20% side view; and 40% rear view of the action.

I'd like to have people include a written statement of intent, such as "I was doing medium-radius carved turns on a blue run in groomed conditions."

[Looking at snapshots is such a tease! The resulting "analysis" is based on so much conjecture that it's bound to make an ASS of U and ME.]

Think of the library of images that could be gathered here. EpicSki could be the training mecca for visual learning.
post #14 of 44
Nolo - that sounds great.

I would offer self as 'flawed' version - lots to fix... I'm just trying to work out what to do to get hold of digital video - my instructor usually takes tapes... Hmmmm...
post #15 of 44
We do something in pilates training that may or may not carry over into ski instruction. One person playing a student, demos a skill, but purposely makes some subtle alignment mistakes. The other, has to first figure out what the misalignment was, and how it effected the rest of the actions throughout the kinetic chain.

This not only improves the visual detection skills of the observer, but the person making the distortion gets to feel what happens when the alignment is incorrect.

Would this work for skiing? Obviously on video, until we have virtual reality, you won't be able to feel the moves, but the traing to see subtle mistakes would be great.
post #16 of 44
Is this a feature that will be added soon? Or are you waiting for the return of cooler weather?
post #17 of 44
Hiya Bears! I've been MIA for a while...

A combination of MA on typical intermediates AND more advanced skiers is really good. As one gets further into MA, it gets easier to find the subtle issues that a more advanced skier has with practice...

In other discussions, the idea of working on skiing skills in easier terrain, then stepping up to tougher stuff works... works with training an instructors MA "eye" as well.

Lisamarie, your comment on training by having one of the instructors demo, and purposely doing something wrong is excellent. This has been done by a few of my favorite trainers over the years, and is a big part of PMTS training and exams.
post #18 of 44
Our instructors do that in the teaching part of the exams (They do video analysis too) - the examiner will set up one (or more I guess) of the group(they play teaching each other) to perform in a particular manner - to see what the instructor who is 'teaching' will do.
post #19 of 44
Thread Starter 
This is just an exploratory conversation, BillA, to determine if there is interest in the concept. The logistics, including a schedule for rollout, would come only if sufficient interest was expressed.

It would be neat if the community took it upon themselves to send in an annual "subscription" to AC and the net donations from nearly 3,000 subscibers amounted to a sum sufficient to install streaming video on AC's server and to offer "someone like Bob" a nice honorarium for leading the discussion.

We might even consider inviting "someone like Harald" to lead another M/A group, just for fun.
post #20 of 44
Any idea what the annual “subscription” rate might be to underwrite the cost of streaming video? $10.00, $50.00, $100.00?
post #21 of 44
Thread Starter 
Well, we could do it like a tithe. Everybody contribute one day's salary a year to AC for the pleasure they receive from having this site available to them.

It may sound like a wild idea, but I always liked how Jim Weiss charged for lessons -- Gonzo will have to tell us if this is still true -- A guy would approach Jim about taking some lessons and invariably the subject of the fee would come up. Jim would ask what the prospective student makes an hour. In his example, maybe it was you, Gonzo, it was a lawyer who made $150 an hour. Jim would then fix his fee at that amount.

No problem seeing the reasoning there!

Whether it's a day's salary or an hour's, it would be a way for them's that rolling in it and them's that not preserve more per capita stash for skiing.

[ July 14, 2002, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: nolo ]
post #22 of 44
I don't think it's a good idea to try a subscription fee on all members. I think it would reduce the number of members and worse discourage new members. I bet many members would complain that they don't have the capablity to see video, and even a small fee would involve a lot of administration. A fee or subscription based training program in M/A or anything else might work. Chris Carmichael does internet cycling/running coaching on a subscription basis that might be a model for this, but those programs are based on an athletes' measured times, not video. The attraction is that you could get thoughtful advice from recognized experts, which should be worth a lot to someone. I think it's a good idea if someone makes the efort to develop it.
post #23 of 44
I have brought up the Video Movement analysis thing a few times, but I seriously beleive that the instrucor/instructors who do the analysis should be paid for their time, and the student should pay for the service.

BTW, for those who don't know me, I am not a ski instructor.
post #24 of 44
Thread Starter 
Ah, but Lisamarie, you are thinking this is a consultation. That would be another service entirely. This would be a tutorial, in which case, a free consult for the subject of the video, but an education for those who participate in the "eye training."

If this is open admission, then would it be proper for the expense to be supported by the community at large?

This is not to say certain services, such as a M/A consult between a student and a pro, could not be facilitated by EpicSki.com and involve a fee negotiated between the student and the pro, which conceivably could involve a small service fee to EpicSki.com.

Certainly there are many possible ways to design the revenue streams that could support robust features for the site. But again, this is purely speculative imagineering at this point.
post #25 of 44
As a person that needs continuous improvement I would be willing to pay a subscription fee to a “closed” area of this sight just for specific purposes such as M/A. I would also be interested in seeing what various exercises the pros would do to improve the skier in the video. Possibly a small start with no stream would give the site administrator an idea of how many truly would sign on. I would think having another secured area in the site like “pay TV” would eliminate the problem of access to other parts of the site? I would also be interested in teaching/learning tips etc. As far as payment I am not sure how the IRS views that!

Secondly, just as an aside, it is my understanding the modern approach to ski teaching does not come from the (negative) right versus wrong but from the (positive) efficient versus inefficient movement if you get my drift. The old saying “If you can’t say anything good say nice hat.” I thought I heard some comments that leaned towards negative feed back versus positive feed back and I think, correct me if I am mislead here, that is not the current instructional approach?
post #26 of 44
The best way to determine real interest is to see how many participants are willing to “subscribe” up front. Any thing else is just talk. I think it’s a great idea; my check is in the mail. If everyone sent in $10.00.....you do the math. Who else is in?
post #27 of 44
right on nolo, doing video streams this here raises awareness of video analysis, and informed skiers will look for it as part of an instructors package. A lot more bang for the buck in a lesson.

One of the best things about this forum is the chance for instructors to "hone their craft". Video Analysis combined with trained M/A skills are one of the most important ways a real "pro" instructor can improve the lessons given...

I use it often, and it works for most people.

Works much better than watching your shadow on the snow, with the sun to your back...
post #28 of 44
Back to the original topic. For me, the best thing about M/A is Cause & Effect. With that in mind, it doesn't really matter whether it's someone doing something incorrectly, or correctly, because to really understand how things relate you need to see it done both ways.

I found that a great way to learn M/A on the hill was just to go out with a bunch of instructors and pick a place on the hill to watch people and then each of us discuss what we saw and why. You learn a lot in hearing other people's descriptions. I think what you are proposing would be similar except that you could go back and review the video over and over. In that way, this would be a better venue.

I, for one, would LOVE to see this kind of thread. But, haven't we done this to s certain extent when people have posted video here?

What would be the difference between what Nolo is offering and what we've done?

post #29 of 44
"Back to the original topic. For me, the best thing about M/A is Cause & Effect."

That's what I was talking about with the kinetic chain stuff. One link of the chain is slightly out of place, and a whole "chain of events" happene that can alter a movement significantly.

You know, this may be getting too technical, but often a persons particular movement patterns are similar in different activities. It would be fascinating, but maybe not feasible, to see a video of someone performing a fitness activity, skiing and some other sport. We can then see if there's a consistancy of certain patterns.

May be going a bit over the top here, though!
post #30 of 44

I like the idea. Count me in.
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