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A Barking Bear Ski Camp? - Page 2

post #31 of 113

I don't want to get in anyone's face, but as a Level III, I get a bit bristly when my qualifications get dissed in this and other forums. It cost me a ton of time, effort, and expense to earn the distinction and I do offer a great value to my students, which is reflected in my rate of return business.

As far as outside instructors skiing with groups at a resort: no one is going to blink an eye if you are not blatant about the arrangement.

Nevertheless, the arrangement as outlined here is a Bears Ski Camp. If you want to contract with Copper for the Camp, I am sure they would be more than happy to allow you to include the note that your clinic leaders are employed by the Bears Ski Camp. The Bears Ski Camp would need to be under AC's EIN as a subsidiary to Epicski.com. Registration fees would be paid to Epicski.com, and Epicski.com would pay the resort and clinicians.

That's if you want to be above-board. It is not strictly necessary if the group is discreet.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ February 09, 2002 06:58 AM: Message edited 1 time, by nolobolono ]</font>
post #32 of 113
Todo, I second the idea of being both a student and a clinitian. The idea PMTS is tempting.
post #33 of 113
Actually, I think it would be great if either Arcmeister or Wigs would do one of their Direct to Parallel Programs. Possibly even both of them, if its feasible.

The European situation is different, since, as has been discussed, no one owns the mountains in Europe.
post #34 of 113
nolo, enlighten me. I tried to find out here where anyone dissed your qualification. As you say, you are a level-3 certified instructor. So is Pierre, whom I know and who made his level 3 just last year.

Before he passed his level-3 he was every bit as good an instructor as he is now, he just didn't have the full pin.

One of the very best instructors I know and who's opinion is greatly valued is a level-2. The reason is that he was so belitled in front of the class by a first year examiner
who was intent to show who is boss that he swore never to return for more humiliation. And he didn't.

And he has coached many for their level-3 exam, but he wont go because the hurt is too deep, even after twenty years.

So when I said that there are great instructors who just don't want to or haven't taken the top level course yet, it was not to take away anything from you, it was to recognize the situation.

Sorry if it was me who may have offended you. The greetings around here for those who made level-3 was alway "Welcome to the ranks of the gods". But we never took that too serious [img]smile.gif[/img]

post #35 of 113
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>not being level-3 certified does not mean that the instructor is inferior<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's what got me.

Then the crack about enthusiasm vs. arrogance, that seemed to characterize L1s as enthusiastic and L3s as arrogant, even though the disclaimer "some" was used as a veil.

Both phrases indicate an attitude that favors happy blundering over serious excellence. It bothers me. Sorry.
post #36 of 113
>>>not being level-3 certified does not mean that the instructor is inferior

That's what got me<<<

That was a quote from me and I stand by it. Nor do I think that a level-3, just by that designation, is superior. There are teacher of varying excellence at all levels.

Without wanting to argue the point much farther, our leader of the Tiny Tots program, a L1, does more good teaching than many at other levels. She is a dedicated teacher.

post #37 of 113
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nolobolono:
Nevertheless, the arrangement as outlined here is a Bears Ski Camp. If you want to contract with Copper for the Camp, I am sure they would be more than happy to allow you to include the note that your clinic leaders are employed by the Bears Ski Camp.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would think the ticket/food sales alone would make any resort with an ounce of common business sense eager to do this, regardless of whether thier ski school made money.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The Bears Ski Camp would need to be under AC's EIN as a subsidiary to Epicski.com.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Epicski is not a business entity and has no EIN.


Pehraps any debate over the meaning of the different instructor levels should be in another thread. Also, it seems obvious to me that nobody meant to diss anyone and that offense seems to have been taken at points that were never made.
post #38 of 113
I bet we get the old slippery slope argument from Copper, or anywhere else. And that would be a shame.
post #39 of 113
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gonzostrike:
If we can do this in CO during March 2002, I am there for sure.

Ha, this from the guy that gave me such a hard time for lobbying for Colorado last year. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Count me in as a participant.

Curious about one thing. Copper allows the instructors from Club Med so I would think that there is at least a precedent for visiting instructors?
post #40 of 113
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kima:
Ha, this from the guy that gave me such a hard time for lobbying for Colorado last year. [img]tongue.gif[/img] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Easily explained, Kima.

For instruction/coaching, the mountain doesn't matter as much as the question of who will be teaching. For quality instruction, I'd ski on astroturf!

For pure pleasure skiing requiring travel, I'm not really interested in skiing the CO "resorts." Not my scene. But I can ignore the "resort" scene if I'll get some valuable instruction.

post #41 of 113
If no offense was meant, AC, then none is taken.

I should not have piped up here in the first place. It is not my concern.

My apologies to all.
post #42 of 113
If we do this next season, I'm in! Way in!

And for the chance to hang out with you people and ski a bit (that's what teaching is, isn't it?), and have some portion of this "vacation" covered, I'd be all over it (I can crash on a floor. I have an air mattress).

Have skis, will travel. Will work for food/shelter/lift lix.

I agree with Nolo. If any transactions are taken care of away from the ski area, and we arrive and play as a group, even if one "friend" is teaching another "friend", then the ski area mgt does not need to be involved or even informed. Like she said, we are not taking away business from them. We are actually bringing business to them, by bringing a large group. PSIA does this all the time, and usually discounts or completely comps lift tickets because we bring so many people (sometimes up to 500 during low season). They know they'll make so much money on food, etc, and get good press, that it's in their benefit. Maybe Breck or Copper mgt will consider this???

The only weird issue that I can think of is that of liability. The "students/friends" need to agree to the fact that the ski area is responsible for nothing involved in the lesson. After all, I do try to kill as many of my students as possible
post #43 of 113
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JohnH:
After all, I do try to kill as many of my students as possible <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As long as you don't charge extra for that...
post #44 of 113
Hey All,

This idea sounds really fun to me. Let's take a look at some dates. I would really enjow skiing (and teaching) with the folks who frequent the Epicski forums. Like someone said, things are busy for us all but I really think this would be a great time. I would like to try to make this work! I'm sure Sugar Bowl would be open to the idea and Reno is easy access with flights and all.

Cheers for now,
post #45 of 113
Sugar Bowl sounds good. Maybe dchan could ask his boss whether the idea interests him; if yes, would the company be willing to extend discounts, set gates, allow the group to bring clinicians in, etc. Just testing the water and developing a Plan B to compare to a Plan A (Copper) that Bob B. is pursuing.

My travel agent tells me airlines are having sales right now. Maybe some of the folks from Boston, the Beltway, the City could check prices for round trips to Reno vs. Denver.

It seems to me that there are a few variables that need to be narrowed down, such as 1) place, 2) dates, 3) cost to right coasters, 4) host area amenities.

Once we have a couple of choices, pros and cons of each will be more apparent, and the prospective attendees can state which option is most attractive. I assume majority rules.

If you want to get this going in 2002...well, it's Feb. 9. It can be done, but the longer it takes to put the thing together, the less lead time people will have to buy airline tickets and that cost increases.

I can't participate, but I think it would be pretty neat if a post on a message board could result in a clinic with a national draw.
post #46 of 113
OK everyone--just got back from Snowmass and I have a lot of catching up to do. I will bring this idea up with the management at Copper Mountain and see what they think of it. I agree that it could be a lot of fun, and I doubt that it would be a problem at all, with a few details ironed out.

Copper, like many big resorts, brings in ski camps, race teams, and clubs on a regular basis. There are many precedents, and all it usually involves at most resorts is arranging the details through the conference services/lodging departments and notifying the ski school director as a professional courtesy, at a minimum.

Many people may not realize that instructors do often teach, usually private lessons, at other resorts besides the one that employs them, completely above-board. There is no "official" policy--just a common professional courtesy that works in everyone's favor. Usually the client pays for the lesson at the "home" ski school. The ski school director calls the director at the other resort, and permission is granted, often with a complimentary lift ticket for the instructor. The client purchases his lift ticket himself, and everyone wins. Yes, the "home" resort still makes an inordinate amount of money on a lesson that they had virtually nothing to do with, but at least it is possible for skiers to ski with whatever instructor they want, wherever they choose--usually.

Anyway, that's another issue--just thought it might be relevant, related information. The Barking Bears project should not be too hard to arrange.

Six new inches of snow at Copper overnight, and it's still snowing hard....

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #47 of 113
So, who wants to give me the first lesson?

post #48 of 113
...just say "wear"!


Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #49 of 113
Sugar Bowl sounds nice, fly into Reno and you are there in under an hour. It is also close to Squawlywood, which would be nice to visit for a day or two.
There is also a few bears who know backcountry there well - Eski's crew, AC and others. Would be nice to spend a day outside of the resort.

I don't think it can happen this year especially given the trip to Fernie in a couple of weeks. It is going to take a while to figure out the format and the place. But to plan something for next year should be doable.
post #50 of 113
OK, I know I rarely say anything on the forum, so my thoughts may not count for much, but could we maybe look at somewhere near a good international airport?
For me to get to Reno means flying via Denver or San Fran. That's one of the reasons I like Colorado - it's just one long flight rather than spending too long getting there!
So, my suggestions would be:

Sorry for being awkward, but I'd prefer fewer chances of lost luggage, and more drinking money!

post #51 of 113
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wear the fox hat ?:
OK, I know I rarely say anything on the forum, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, WTFH, you really should say something once in a while!

Even for those of us around the Beltway (Wash DC area), and probably other right coasters, we usually have to fly through Denver to get to Reno anyway. No biggie, really.
post #52 of 113
I'd like to go, but I don't fly.
post #53 of 113
Thread Starter 
Hat, You should also think about Utah for a ski trip. Sure you fly over Colorado but once you land you are less then an hours drive from 8 major ski mountains.Land in the morning and ski that afternoon.
post #54 of 113
It seems to me that the hardest thing to work out would be 'which' site and which instructors. I say that because there seems to be a lot of 'proffesional' ski people as part of this list from a lot of different places, all of whom (presumably) would love to host an event and teach more people to get better at skiing. Or maybe have multiple events in many places. or maybe I'm way out in left field?
post #55 of 113
Sounds a great idea to me, especially Colorado or Utah, but don't make it too soon - it may take some time to convince 'She who must be obeyed' that yet another ski/golf trip is acceptable!
post #56 of 113
Is this going to be a west coast thing? Because there are quite a few East Coasters I'm sure that would love to be involved.. Me Included !

I know it's hard to organize, but the more central the location, the better for everyone.. Sorry I don't have any suggestions, I know jack squat about U.S Ski areas (Unless they are in the N.E)
post #57 of 113
A thought on organizing this thing:
Admitting that even the newest beginner has something to teach even the most experienced Level III, divide ourselves into two groups--the teachers and the taught. The students kick some fixed amount into a pot and the instructors divvy that up. Then the instructors teach whatever they want in whatever format they want to, and the students take the sessions they sign up for. That's pretty free form, but it's a start.
Maybe there somebody out there with some experience organizing and running a ski school/camp has got a better idea.
post #58 of 113
Better idea for organising:
1. All the female instructors send me a photo of yourself.
2. All the female students send a photo.

I will then devise some method to split us all up. I reckon it will consist of me plus most of 1 & 2 above in one group, and then the rest of you in another.

Sounds fair to me.

Any objections?

post #59 of 113
Hey Nolo! I suppose "happy blundering and
serious excellence" are pretty dependent upon
point of view. I successfully taught skiing at all levels for 15 years with no pin (yes,
I did take the clinics and even passed a level II exam once, but never accepted the pin). I was one of the most
requested instructors on the mountain. I just did not agree with the PSIA heiracrchy on a lot of things (and still don't).
post #60 of 113
I think having a list of sessions and having people sign up and track what is where would be a major hassle.

The format that I have seen work pretty well is:

- On the first day have a ski-off and split people in groups of 5 - 8 by ability.
- Have each group ski with different instructor for 1/2 day and just keep rotating.
- Between sessions if people wanted to change groups they would talk with instructors.
- Instructors would have to work out what they are addressing to minimize overlap.

While it is a group effort, it should not turn into teaching democracy. We would have to trust instructors to make sure that we all feel good about the time spent at the end of the day.
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