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Instruction and coaching for overweight people - Page 3

post #61 of 77

post #62 of 77

On another not Rick,  let me ask you this: If pivoting only occurs as you claim and your term "skid angle" and lower leg steering account for the rest of a turn or the whole turn

 

Imagine the muscles and movements used to make pivots, or pivot slips.....now imagine you are making a short radius very steered turn (ie: large steering angle or skid angle if you must).  How is the muscular effort and movements different from pivot slips? other than adding a bit more edge angle to cause some forward component, the femurs are still rotating in the hip sockets and there is still a large pivoting component in these TURNS.  So how can you say that the pivoting effort or motion disappears as soon the skis are weighted?  I believe my definition still holds water, steering combines some degree of pivoting with some degree of edge angle.  It makes perfect sense to me anyway!

 

 

Yes, when we release our edges some pressure is relieved, I agree, but I would not say the skis are necessarily  unweighted.

 

just sayin!  I could be wrong because many times I am....

post #63 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

 

Yes, when we release our edges some pressure is relieved, I agree, but I would not say the skis are necessarily  unweighted.

 

just sayin!  I could be wrong because many times I am....



Just a point, the term "unweighted" in skiing terms typically does refer to the period at transition when there is no turning forces.  My understanding is the term was derived from the skiers perspective, hence "unweighted" refers to the sensation felt by the skier...ie the drop off in turning forces...rather then a technically correct true descriptor of what might be really happening at the skis.

 

Kinda like dropping the weight after doing squats...you will feel "unweighted", and you are relativley speaking, but unweighted, does not mean "weightless".

post #64 of 77

Ah,  OK, makes sense from that perspective!

 

But would you agree that we can and do certainly continue to use a pivot movement while the skis are weighted?  I do not believe being able to pivot my skis requires an unweighted period as evident in pivot slips.  

 

Would you agree Skidude that steering though out turns includes an element of pivoting?

post #65 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post



 

The important point Rick, is that steering angle EFFECTS turn shape.  

 

 


 

 


Actually, the word is AFFECTS.  I've explained that it does have an influence on turn shape, but within the concept of Skid Angle that influence is not absolute, the skier has the final say, and can use that ability to control turn shape independently of skid angle to great advantage.  

 

 

 

Quote:
Rick:  there was only 1 question:

 

With skid angle, you could REDUCE the skid angle, but TIGHTEN the turn radius.  Please explain how skid angle make this possible.

 

Post #53 does not answer this

 

 

No, in that post you also asked these questions. 

 

Quote:
What Ron wrote is true.  Do you disagree?  Is skid angle different?

 

It was in reference to these questions that I "steered" you towards my post 53.  

 

To understand the answer to your question number 1, you must first realize that my term SKID ANGLE refers only to the nature of the divergence of the tip and tail as they track through a steered turn.  It doesn't seek to address the steering angle in carving as explained by LeMaster.  It deals exclusively with what happens while executing steered turns.  In a carved turn the skid angle is always zero, regardless of the edge angle or radius of the turn.  

 

Isolating it to steering keeps things simple Simon.   Here's how it works;  the larger the Skid Angle, the further away the overall ski points from the actual direction the skier is moving, the more the separation in the path of travel the tip and tail take through the turn,  the wider the skid track left in the snow, and the more braking that takes place.  It's that simple.  

 

The power within the concept is that a turn of a single radius can be executed with a variety different of skid angles, allowing you to exercise great control over your speed, while making any shape turn.  Gaining the ability to vary Skid Angle is a simple matter of developing refined edging, pressure and leg steering skills.  


Edited by Rick - 5/17/10 at 2:19pm
post #66 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

On another not Rick,  let me ask you this: If pivoting only occurs as you claim and your term "skid angle" and lower leg steering account for the rest of a turn or the whole turn

 

Imagine the muscles and movements used to make pivots, or pivot slips.....now imagine you are making a short radius very steered turn (ie: large steering angle or skid angle if you must).  How is the muscular effort and movements different from pivot slips? other than adding a bit more edge angle to cause some forward component, the femurs are still rotating in the hip sockets and there is still a large pivoting component in these TURNS.  So how can you say that the pivoting effort or motion disappears as soon the skis are weighted?  I believe my definition still holds water, steering combines some degree of pivoting with some degree of edge angle.  It makes perfect sense to me anyway!

 


While transitional pivoting can be done in various ways, a commonly thought of efficient way to do it is via ANTICIPATION.  With Anticipation a rotational separation is created between the upper and lower body.  The upper body faces downhill, while the legs/skis face more across the slope.  That creates a torque in the mid section of the body, much like a spring waiting to be released.   When the ski's edges are disengaged from the snow during the transition, the spring is indeed released, and the skis and legs snap back into directional harmony with the upper body.  Presto, pivot.  

 

This is generally not what happens while steering through the body of a turn, but it very much does assist in providing the rotational power in pivot slips.  The exception when steering would be when the skier is trying to execute pure forms of skiing in and out of counter.  Typically, when doing that, the result is a more pivoted (my usage of the term) top of the turn, and a loss of consistent turn shape.  

post #67 of 77

have him practice HH's "bulletproof short turns" on shallow and really slow.

Have him go to Weight Watchers. I did and I lost 40 lbs and didn't even need to.

 

short answers are always the most efficient

you can't buy balance and you can't learn by sking fast

 

most of the skiers on this forum have BMI that are in the high-risk area

post #68 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by narc View Post

I don't want to derail this thread, but what are the implications on ski choice for obese skiers?


I'm glad I found this post before I posted.  This is a very valid point.

 

There was a guy who was about 6 ft/ 350lbs at the first area I worked at.  Nice guy and always got his own chair (right....no one else could fit).  If I remember correctly he was in either a size 13 or 14 Hanson boot as that was the only thing that fit him.  Not exactly what we could consider a boot designed to carve in.  Smeared turns all day long on the lower slopes until someone mentioned they could see the tips and tails of his skis were off the snow as he was skiing and suggested he try a stiffer ski.

 

A short time later the turns were rounded and it was tough to see the center of the ski as it was fairly well buried in the hill in reverse camber.  A huge change in the guys skiing and from that point on the question on all our minds was what it was all going to look like if that edge let go.  This skier went from unbalanced smearing to a freight train in a matter of days.

 

I would carefully access the gear choice and observe what the ski is doing (as far as the flex).  The lack of confidence may be due to the uncontrolled feeling of the ski skidding when it absolutely no ability to hold as it is so over pressured.
 

post #69 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

Here on Epic, when people speak of pivoting, a transitional redirection of the skis is usually what they're talking about.  If they do an MA for someone and say the person is pivoting, they're not saying the person is steering precise, well shaped turns.  They're saying he/she is starting their turn with an aggressive tail toss, and the top of their turn is thereby being rushed.  

 


I'll preface my comment with the assertion that I have nowhere near the experience, expertise, skiing ability, or overall competence of Rick, Bud or Skidude72. Therefore, anything I say should be discounted or ignored entirely.

 

I agree with the first sentence above. That doesn't mean that pivoting is limited to such transitional redirection, IMHO, nor does transitional redirection necessarily require an abrupt twist, unweighting movement or other aggressive muscular effort. But I could be wrong, and I probably am wrong.

 

As for the second, I believe that pivoting can be precise and carefully controlled to create either no turn shape at all or a well shaped turn, as the skier wishes and assuming the skier has the skill to create the desired shape while still allowing skid.
 

As for the last sentence, I was totally unaware that the term "pivoting" implied "an aggessive tail toss."

 

I must confess that I associate pivoting with a release (the edges become less engaged to the point that the skis can slip downhill, if allowed) and a movement of the tips down the hill out of the line that would be followed by a pure arc-to-arc transition. This often, but not always, implies rotation of the femurs in the hip sockets (with some associated muscular effort - but surprisingly little), but there is, of course, more than one way to skin this cat. The movement of the tips down the hill can also be made with the entire body quite square to the skis, although there is probably at least a little femur rotation involved.

 

This discussion has been very educational for a duffer like me, and I appreciate the clarification of the meaning of the term "pivot" in the Epic context. It is apparent that I misunderstand it completely.

post #70 of 77

Agree with you Jhcooley!  Rick's definition which includes "tail toss" has a bad connotation whereas if the pivot point is where it should be, under the feet, it is not a negative and can very well be controlled and blended with edging and pressuring movements to make very good turns.  

 

A "tail toss" is a pivot around the tips and is a poorly executed turn initiation or antiquated technique from a past era.  It is also many times accompanied by a counter rotation of the shoulders.  When I think of pivoting movements I think of functional movements with the axis underneath the tib/fib just in front of the heels and femurs rotating in the hip sockets with hips as part of the stable torso rather than rotation with the feet.  Tips going down the hill.

 

I believe MOST instructors on this site would agree with you and me.

post #71 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

Ah,  OK, makes sense from that perspective!

 

But would you agree that we can and do certainly continue to use a pivot movement while the skis are weighted?  I do not believe being able to pivot my skis requires an unweighted period as evident in pivot slips.  

 

Would you agree Skidude that steering though out turns includes an element of pivoting?



Definatley.

post #72 of 77



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post



 


Actually, the word is AFFECTS.  I've explained that it does have an influence on turn shape, but within the concept of Skid Angle that influence is not absolute, the skier has the final say, and can use that ability to control turn shape independently of skid angle to great advantage.  

 

 

 

 

 

No, in that post you also asked these questions. 

 

 

It was in reference to these questions that I "steered" you towards my post 53.  

 

To understand the answer to your question number 1, you must first realize that my term SKID ANGLE refers only to the nature of the divergence of the tip and tail as they track through a steered turn.  It doesn't seek to address the steering angle in carving as explained by LeMaster.  It deals exclusively with what happens while executing steered turns.  In a carved turn the skid angle is always zero, regardless of the edge angle or radius of the turn.  

 

Isolating it to steering keeps things simple Simon.   Here's how it works;  the larger the Skid Angle, the further away the overall ski points from the actual direction the skier is moving, the more the separation in the path of travel the tip and tail take through the turn,  the wider the skid track left in the snow, and the more braking that takes place.  It's that simple.  

 

The power within the concept is that a turn of a single radius can be executed with a variety different of skid angles, allowing you to exercise great control over your speed, while making any shape turn.  Gaining the ability to vary Skid Angle is a simple matter of developing refined edging, pressure and leg steering skills.  


Well all that is identical to steering angle. 

 

So we ended up where we finished off in the Skid Angle thread.  No surpise.  Unless you can explain how skid angle enables you to tighten a turn radius with less steering angle, then it is just a sub-set of steering angle.  I know you cant explain it any different, I couldn't either. 

 

Skid angle is a just subset of steering angle only dealing with generation of a steering angle through pivoting...it does not cover steering angle created via an arced ski.

 

Hence skid angle is really the one with limitations.  Again as pointed out before.

 

The power of steering angle, is it is simple a concept as to what is required for a skier to make a turn.  It does not specify at all how we obtain a steering angle, it just says we need one to turn.  This is of course true.  It's purpose is to give instructors a base understanding of what is required to turn and also provides some insight to the tradeoffs with slowing....Ron, and indeed the skiing world then discusses the various ways we can generate a steering angle, manage it, and what are the pros and cons of each appraoch.  In pracitce 2 methods are recognised as being effective:

 

1: Pivoting

2: Arcing the ski.

 

 Seems strange someone who claims to have a "USA Racing" focus will ignore the "arcing" part of steering angle in favour the skidding part....but anyway.  Lets leave it at that.

 

 

But hey lets not end this here:

 

I made another really important point in my post #48:

 

" In Skills Concept teaching we only focus on skills, not maneuvers.  "

 

I am surprised you did not pick up on this.  All your descirptions, terms, feedback, seems movment or manuever based....yet you claim to work from a skill based concept.  Care to discuss?
 

post #73 of 77
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post

Have any of you guys ever carried in excess of half or more of your "normal" body weight and skied?

 

I have. Twice. I can tell you that "unibody" is a given when you have that much girth, which compromises movement in all planes of motion. There is no upper-lower body separation when the largest part of your body is your waistline, so inclination and skidding is how you ski. Until the body is freed from the excess cover, advanced edging movements are not possible. This analogy may cut a little close, but trying to teach the pig to sing is going to annoy the pig--to the point where he chooses to stay home rather than subject himself to the frustration of aiming for an unattainable standard. In my case, I was in my last months of pregnancy, and the alternative was sitting at home. I was full-cert before I got pregnant, so I knew how to ski properly, I just couldn't ski that way in my pregnant state. I accepted that I was mostly "taking mother out for some sun" and perfected my skidded turns on low angle terrain, where I found plenty of room for improvement and had as much fun as ever. 


I appreciate that insight. Thank you for being so candid.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by steveys View Post


Hi, I understand the difficulty you had skiing with all that increased weight.  Obviously you were not in a position to strengthen your muscles, but I think if you were overweight, gaining the strength in thighs, back of thighs, would of enabled the flexion to ski with the correct shape of turn.  My shape of turn being correct does not come from me, but the head of ski school..  Again, I was 5 feet 4 250 -275 this season, while in the summer I was 197,  Put on a ton of weight due to medical issues. 

 

With this rapid increase in weight my legs were not strong enough to do what they had to do, so I had problems with flexion.  Worked out, gained muscle strength, and was able to get the flexion to enable nice rounded turns.


 


I appreciate your perspective,steveys. I'm sorry to hear of medical issues, that's never something you want to have happen. Out of curiosity, did you develop your turn shape this season or last year? And did you find improvements came as you gained the strength? Was there a gap between when you didn't have the strength and when you did have the strength? 

 

Thanks for the info!

post #74 of 77

SkiDude, you and I have gone on long enough with this.  Metaphor has just posted what looks to me like an attempt to bring HIS thread back on track.  I for one am going to take the hint.  Hopefully those readers who have stuck with our discussion (gluttons for punishment) have read enough of our back and forth by now to understand what we're each saying..  If not, they can PM their questions to me and I'll be happy to respond to them.  

post #75 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

SkiDude, you and I have gone on long enough with this.  Metaphor has just posted what looks to me like an attempt to bring HIS thread back on track.  I for one am going to take the hint.  Hopefully those readers who have stuck with our discussion (gluttons for punishment) have read enough of our back and forth by now to understand what we're each saying..  If not, they can PM their questions to me and I'll be happy to respond to them.  



Good idea Rick,

 

Lets start another thread so as not to hijack this thread anymore.  Do you want to start it or should I?

post #76 of 77

I am surprised here that Bud did not zero in on the boot issue.  Many if not most obese people have hypermobile feet (Flat feet, bunions and hammer toes) in addition of large calf muscles.  A lack of confidence points strongly to a boot fit and alignment problem.   That requires no fitness to improve.    After boots and the right skis then the limitations of movement can be explored.

post #77 of 77

Pierre,

 

Don't know that I concur with your generalization of obese skier issues.

 

Without seeing this particular student we can not make any judgements regarding equipment though it is always a possibility with any skier and should be addressed when possible to facilitate their progress and success.  

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