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The Banana Peel at end of turn

post #1 of 17
Thread Starter 
After a lesson on Sunday I was working on 'being long' in the top part of the turn and building the edge angle without letting it go and skidding.

I was making fairly large radius turns (skis at time: 191cm rossi 9x 9.9) and was concentrating on really feeling the edge angle build and hold the arc. My tendency had been to let the bottom of the turn go to a skid so I was trying not to do that. Snow was wet soft spring. What I found was that often if I let the edge angle build at the end of the turn I had this large acceleration with weight on my heels and the skis shooting out from under me. This was fun except I was close to loosing it and had to pull my legs back quick while in the air.

While looking through the ski gear thread, I came upon this statement:

>>Sometimes I get too carried away and over G force so to speak and end up in the back seat with the skis shooting out from underneath me like I stepped on a banana peel<< -Pierre eh!

That description of the "banana peel" is exactly the sensation! So how do you not "slip on the banana peel"?
post #2 of 17
Piere eh! Could this be the tendency for some leaning into the turn too much instead of keeping the upper body more upright in the turn?

Life's a pain... then you nap. Cat philosphy
post #3 of 17
When I tried those skis many years ago, I noticed the very same thing, more so than on any other skis that I tried. Try reaching forward as much as possible with your hands at the end of the turn, like Hermann.<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by milesb (edited April 24, 2001).]</FONT>
post #4 of 17
Ski rebound can vary from ski to ski and is a function of both tail and shovel flex. If the tail is very stiff and has a lot of rebound (often more than the shovel, which could be more damp) you will be thrown in the backseat unless you have a centered stance or even a forward stance. This makes sense since a strong rebound from the tail will "shoot" the ski forward, just like a strong rebound from the shovel will "shoot" the ski back under your CM.

So when you change skis you have to experiment a little to get used to the sweet spot and the characteristics of the ski. Once you are familiar with the ski, then you should be able to "feel" where the CM must be positioned to avoid the "banana". If you move your CM down the hill at the right time (as Pierre eh mentioned) you will also be able to take advantage of the rebound to do some nice (and almost effortless) cross-under moves.
post #5 of 17
Try thinking about blending turn finish with the initiation of the next turn a little more. Maybe reach your maximum pressuring a little earlier and start thinking about moving the center of mass toward the next turn while finishing off the steering of the current turn. This stuff happens so rapidly on the steep that you can work on it better on more comfortable terrain. I'm trying to think about my center of mass flowing downhill continuously as a matter of attitude, and, as a matter of technique, I'm trying to get ready to have that go on as I'm coming off the fall line. Other than reminding myself to keep moving toward downhill, the thing that's helped me the most is moving through a stage of feeling equally weighted on the skis at the transition from one turn to the next.
post #6 of 17
Thread Starter 
>> In my case its a matter of loading up the skis more than my flexed legs will absorb and running out of flex and ending up in the back seat on a loaded up ski.<< Pierre eh!

Yes, my instructor was trying to get me to stay tall in the begining of the turn because I was too flexed and so at the bottom of the turn I had no where to go. Changing that and being to bent forward at the waist. So practicing that I felt like I was really up there in the sky.
So I take it that two requirements for the bottom of the turn are having enough flex range and leg strength to absorb the forces of a high g turn.

>>When I tried those skis many years ago, I noticed the very same thing, more so than on any other skis that I tried.<< milesb

Interesting, though I won't blame the skis, I'm usually on the Volkl p40 which is way stiffer overall. I might compare this weekend if I go but that involves bringing 3 pairs of skis including the rock skis.

Moving the center of mass down the hill before the end of the turn is something I'm working on. That was the other thing that came out of the lesson- moving the body downhill before the fall line.

A couple of times this year while doing racing clinics I've experienced what I call 'the world cup turn'. This is when I've fully loaded the ski in the turn and the next gate comes up so quick that I practically throw my body downhill while releasing the edges. The skis shoot out to the side and my inside arm (the new outside) goes flying back all by itself just like w.c. turns you see on film.

So if I'm out of flex at the end of the turn but I've already committed my body to moving downhill or inside the new turn will that control the banana peel effect?

The idea of continuous movement while skiing is something that's been drilled in through taking race clinics. In this lesson we got a good analogy that really hit home with the person I was with.

"It's like when you were a kid and your parents pushed you on the swing set. Eventually they got tired and said 'You figure it out'. So at first your moving around side to side and then you figure it out. You're constantly moving different parts of your body to keep yourself swinging"

>>the thing that's helped me the most is moving through a stage of feeling equally weighted on the skis at the transition from one turn to the next.<< Kneale

Does that mean real active extension at the begining of the turn? And what if you get a little air from the rebound at the end of the previous turn?

post #7 of 17
Just a little bit of clarification?
I wonder if your instructor is not so much trying to get you to "stand tall" at the beginning of the turn. This will waste a lot of energy if you "stand up" at the turn initiation. The constant movement makes more sense and perhaps he was trying to get you to get on edge earlier and extend through the belly of the turn and allow some active compression as you leave the belly of the turn. This "full range of motion" will give you the room to move with the terrain and not "use up" all your range.
It will also keep your skis in contact with the snow more if you continue to move down hill (downhill sport don't move up hill with your CM) your feet will cross-under your CM to the next turn. This will also create rounder turns and not banana shaped turns and less skidding at the end of the turns. (This was my first problem to fix with my instructor Lyle at the canyons in January) and part of my path to reaching short turns..

Just some thoughts.<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by dchan (edited April 25, 2001).]</FONT>
post #8 of 17
Thanks Pierre Eh
Now all I's gots to do is decide if I want to take the time to pursue the instructor/psia route or just keep having fun and keep learning. Maybe if the company I work for goes public? Took you three years?
post #9 of 17
You see d-chan, I'm not the only one who says these things to you. One thing to keep in mind, the BEST instructors never stop learning!

Be Braver in your body, or your luck will leave you. DH Lawrence
post #10 of 17
Thread Starter 
Pierre eh!,

Yes the instructor said the excact same thing about moving downhill or into the new turn before the skis cross the fall line. I should have been more precise in my post. (instructor was an examiner btw).

Just so I have this clear though. Let's say we can "rewind" your banana turn to just before your feet slipped out. If you had hurled your body downhill into the the next turn before that slip point would the "slip" not have occurred? Or is it still a matter of flex, leg strength?

You can start right away and still "learn and have fun". The three years for Pierre eh! is for level 3. He was teaching that whole time.
One advantage is you can take clinics to improve you skiing, teaching. They're usually pretty cheap, like $40/day with ticket.
post #11 of 17
A truly fun thing to do is let the turn keep going until you are going somewhat uphill, then quickly move your CM across the skis into the next turn. This almost doubles your "hang time".
post #12 of 17
Tog: The transition from one turn to the next MAY involve an extension. It also could involve a relaxation or even a retraction. The goal is to have the CM moving forward toward downhill without one ski or the other being dominant at that moment. I try to feel an equal amount of pressure on the bottoms of my feet, and I usually try to feel an equal amount of LIGHT pressure because I try to make this point one of being as relaxed as possible. I'm shooting for CM momentum to move the CM toward downhill rather than some muscular tensioning. But I'm old and need to conserve stamina!!!!
post #13 of 17
Thread Starter 
This weekend I tried your technique of feeling equal weight on both feet during the transition. I like it, it worked well in the wet clumpy snow.
post #14 of 17
Great, Tog. Did you make an equalizing move (like extending or retracting with both legs equally) or just try to feel for the equally weighted moment?

I spent the weekend trying to find some way to sit comfortably after having a large lump surgically removed from one "cheek" last week :~).
post #15 of 17
Thread Starter 
I was most conscious of it while extending with both legs. Sometimes the extension was really just relaxing and letting the feet go out.
I was attempting also to move my body downhill into the new turn before crossing the fall line. It's such an interesting but odd feeling to move your body forward while the skis are going about their business out to the side. For a brief moment if feels as if your just out there unsupported. ("Hey! what the hell are you doing out here!? Shouldn't you be back over there with the skis?") It's definitely a little bit of a leap of faith that it will all work out.

I think it's similar to begining skiers doing a steeper pitch where they're very uncomfortable. You try to tell them to relax that downhill leg and let themselves come around and down. "I promise your ski will hold you!" They don't believe it will work though until they've done it a few times.

I'm not sure I understand how a "retraction" at the begining of the turn fits in though.
post #16 of 17
"...don't want a pickle, just want to ride my motorsickle,"

If you've driven a motorcycle you'd recognise that to turn left you actually turn the wheel to the right. It doesn't seem very logical but a quick small adjustment to the right lays the bike down in an angle to the left with NO work needed to lean your bodys mass over to that side. Now the bike and you are in the right position to bank merrily around a nice long corner, even with the wheel straight. To straighten out and bank now to the right, all you need is a little flick of the wrist (oversteer to the left) and the bike magically passes under you without ANY other body movement needed, and locks you into a long bank to the right.

People here don't seem to like this "banana peel" effect but, myself, I just look at this as the natural result of an effective 'oversteer'. All you need to do now is LET the wheels keep going under you until they engage in the new bank turn.

'Course, it makes it infinately harder to do this if you've let go of the handle bars and are slipping off the back of the bike...
post #17 of 17
Cheap seats
Very good analogy.
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