or Connect
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Are you a 10? - Page 2

post #31 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

 What if the instructor is lazy, rude, always late and smokes during class but at the same time he is a very good skier and instructor and even if he is mean and sarcastic 1 student out of 10 thinks he is the best instructor ever. Where do you fit him on your scale?
 

 


 



Hmm.....I quit smoking, can't buy a turn and am a lousy teacher, however, the other attributes describe me to a proverbial T.

 

I'm also 100% requested. If I was a ski school director I'd fire my ass and get someone personable.

post #32 of 52

Lazy, rude, always late, mean, sarcastic, and can't ski? Ugh. Crawl back under your rock. Congrats on kicking tobacco. Could you please consider using another number for your avatar? 15 is taken. Thank you.

post #33 of 52
Thread Starter 

Thanks again TDK, for the negative comments like "this thread is a waste of time". Have you noticed 1's in a lesson exhibit exactly the same "this is a waste of time" attitude. I'm not trying to be insulting as much as recognize that you don't see value here. Which is what a 1 student would feel. Validating that opens the door to asking the following questions.

What could I do to change your mind? How can I express the idea that developing more business isn't a matter of finding, or creating more 8-10's in our customer base.  It's about creating more 8-10's on the instructor side of the matrix. To do that we need to be honest with ourselves about many things. What extra value do you bring to the lessons you do teach? How can you bring even more value to that lesson? How do you convince others to invest in their future, if you don't invest in your own. Motivation is contageous and starts with the instructor showing up motivated to create the best lesson they have ever taught.


Edited by justanotherskipro - 5/7/10 at 11:16pm
post #34 of 52

TDK, you suggest that you are director of a ski school and yet you seem to have difficult articulating qualities of a great ski instructor (other than making money and student not asking for money back).   You can talk about motivation all you want but unless you (as ski school director) can help facilitate your instructors becoming better, than I question your effectiveness at your position.  I guess I would like to see one of the lessons you teach to see what you do. 

 

I have taken countless lessons and clinics.  I analyze all of the instructors and try to pinpoint the reason I had a great lesson or not.  I try to learn from each and everyone of them.  In the lessons, I teach, I want people to walk away thinking they had a great lesson, a fun day, a safe day and ready to come back for more.  I realize that I have a long way to go in terms of technical understanding of skiing and MA skills but no one can top my enthusiasm, passion and dedication.   However, I see plenty of instructors lacking all of these things.  I had the good fortune of skiing with some great instructors and I want to be like them.

 

Return rate is a piece of the pie but I know some crappy instructors who are nice people and schmooze the hell out of newbie skiers who don't know any better who have fabulous return rates.  Yes, great instructors have good return rates but instructors with good return rates are not necessarily great instructors.

 

post #35 of 52

Skier31, you are right on many points in your previous posting. There is nothing saying that Im a particulary good director of a ski school. Im most certainly a much better instructor. However, Ive been in the business for a long time. Seen most of it. And sadly most instructors Ive come across on both sides of the fence had some kind of thing about them that made them less attractive as instructors in my eyes. One very bad type is the one you mentioned that schmoozes the hell out of their students and considers the student their personal property. So you are right, good return rates does not always mean that they are good instructors. But that is kind of the reason I have a hard time grasping this 1-9 level thing. 

post #36 of 52



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Thanks again TDK, for the negative comments like "this thread is a waste of time". Have you noticed 1's in a lesson exhibit exactly the same "this is a waste of time" attitude. I'm not trying to be insulting as much as recognize that you don't see value here. Which is what a 1 student would feel. Validating that opens the door to asking the following questions.

What could I do to change your mind? How can I express the idea that developing more business isn't a matter of finding, or creating more 8-10's in our customer base.  It's about creating more 8-10's on the instructor side of the matrix. To do that we need to be honest with ourselves about many things. What extra value do you bring to the lessons you do teach? How can you bring even more value to that lesson? How do you convince others to invest in their future, if you don't invest in your own. Motivation is contageous and starts with the instructor showing up motivated to create the best lesson they have ever taught.



Did I say this was a wast of time? I take your word for it but I suspet that my comment was taken out of context. Anyway, I think I have showed great spirit here in this thread. You have got me totally wrong. I have been saying from my first posting that it really does not matter what level of spirit the student is showing. Its all about the instructor. Good instructors deal with our students no matter what. Or allmost anyway. I have been talking about motivation but Im pritty much alone with my thaughts it seams. We can write 4 200 page books on this matter. Too complicated. Every single instructor I have ever come accross was different from the next one. I have not really gotten a grasp of this thread. Ive been giving it a try though. I must be the one that posted most frequently here. Not to your liking however.....

 

What extra value do I bring to the lesson?

Im very experianced and Im exceptionally good at teaching. Very good with kids. 

 

How can I bring even more value to the lesson?

By coaching and teaching other ski instructors what I know is how I can add more value to many more lessons than I could possibly ever teach.

 

How do I convince others to invest in their future, if I don't invest in my own?

Dont know exactly what you are aiming at here but you should always set an example yourself.

post #37 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post

Lazy, rude, always late, mean, sarcastic, and can't ski? Ugh. Crawl back under your rock. Congrats on kicking tobacco. Could you please consider using another number for your avatar? 15 is taken. Thank you.


umm it was an attempt at humor and the avatar is a tribute to Chris Henry.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=4808359
 

post #38 of 52

Assigning a Number to the infinite number of behavior characteristics in a human being is a waste of time.

 

BUT

 

Is pretty typical of the ski instructor method of doing things.

post #39 of 52
Thread Starter 

Metaphor wrote about corporate training and three types of participants. Passive aggressive participation in mandated training, vacationers who see training as a break from their work, and learners who see that training as an opportunity to learn and grow both personally and professionally.

 

We also see that in students walking into the ski school desk. Mom and Dad placing their kid in a lesson even if the kid had no interest in skiing. Husbands and wives who insist that their other half ski, or ski at their level. Others who hate the feeling of being always being a straggler who just want to keep up with their family / friends. And skiers who can't wait to explore and expand on their current skills.

 

The matrix expands on this but does not represent a comprehensive psychological analysis of each student. Far from it! All it does is identify a student's willingness to participate in the lesson at the very beginning of the lesson. By identifying that mental baseline of willingness we have a better idea what we need to do with that student right away. It also gives us an insight into our teaching if we get too anxious to share knowledge and forget that the we need to be gleaning information from the students before developing a lesson plan. The initial lift ride and the warm up runs are there to facilitate this gathering of information and to allow us to begin forming a personal relationship with our students. Experienced pros like Rick may not even realize they do this because it is such an ingrained habit that developed over time. On the other end of the spectrum are new pros who may not have developed that habit yet and the matrix is a way to help them develop their active listening skills. Which are at the heart of this whole idea. Find out more about who you're teaching, discover how you can best serve them.  


Edited by justanotherskipro - 5/9/10 at 8:44pm
post #40 of 52



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

 

 

help them develop their active listening skills. Which are at the heart of this whole idea. Find out more about who you're teaching, discover how you can best serve them.  



JASP.   Listening skills and this are really at the heart of teaching.   I am not a big fan of PSIA matrix symbolism but the idea is certainly sound.  The main problems are;  teaching the teachers the importance of listening, reading body language and showing and believeing in empathy.  The 2nd big problem is how can a ski instructor perform these functions in 1 1/2 hours with say 7 students all at the same time.  Actually it is almost impossible.  Private lessons, yes if the lesson starts out within these parameters and a certain level of trust and understanding is reached in what the student and instructor can offer, have and achieve.

 

Indifference on the part of the student is mentioned a lot in the above material.  In my ski teaching experience FEAR is a more common problem. This one human emotion can end one's skiing forever and all too often does just that.

post #41 of 52
Thread Starter 

I've written this obviously from my perspective of a day long, or multi day lerssons. I agree that it is more difficult to spend an hour getting to know the people if all you have is an hour and a half. Not impossible though. I typically start interviewing students as soon as possible,  especially in the meeting area and on the first lift ride, etc.

 

As far as how to do this quickly, I agree with Rick that it is an ongoing process and in the abbreviated format you mentioned you may need to do a lot of things simultaneously. How do you do that? Care to share?


Edited by justanotherskipro - 5/10/10 at 11:37am
post #42 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

I've written this obviously from my perspective of a day long, or multi day lerssons. I agree that it is more difficult to spend an hour getting to know the people if all you have is an hour and a half. Not impossible though. I typically start interviewing students as soon as possible,  especially in the meeting area and on the first lift ride, etc.

 

As far as how to do this quickly, I agree with Rick that it is an ongoing process and in the abbreviated format you mentioned you may need to do a lot of things simultaneously. How do you do that? Care to share?


JASP.  For me to answer this will take some time.   I have no where near your ski teaching experience and almost anything I could say you've probably already heard.  However I do have a close working knowldege of fear and used this off  the snow experience and knowledge when teaching.  If you are interested let me know and I will try to put this in written form.

 

Being a good listener is so much more than - listening.  Acknowleging body language, voice inflection, verbalization quanity and quality all play a large part in reading a persons motivation, apprehension, interest and reluctance or even fear.
 

post #43 of 52
Thread Starter 

Please share that! How did you overcome that fear? Did you do it all on your own, or did you work with a coach? If you worked with a coach, what did they do to help you overcome that fear?

post #44 of 52

Great thread guys.   Motivation. 1st question we ask in a lesson, why are you here? what do you want to learn? what would you like out of this experience/lesson. what is your motivation for spending$$$$ and being here for a lesson, and so on, starts (hopefully) a great lesson.

 

Finding out there motivation to be here and then what actually motivates them on the hill? Great topic. How to rate that? And thento add that with fitness level(desk job vs athlete) and then natural abilities and coordination, equipment(NZ has an amazing amount of straight skis still).

At one resort, Whakapapa, the beginners area, Happy Valley is like a beginners factory pumping out lessons every 30 minutes from 10 -2pm. When numbers are large we try to ask if they(students) are more sporty/active/fearless(if you will-diferent wording on the day) and if they are more causiuos and thinking to split....It seems to work ok sometimes- (was a few years ago now).

 

 Ask your students at the office to fill out a quik 10 question sheet and assess answers to match Instructors to Students, based on your system. Great idea, if I think of any more constructive I'll pass it on. I start back in a month

 

Fear.

I think fear is like break up. Your all sad and down and then you realise its not her your missing, its the house, your car, your mates, your job, computer etc. If you can break it down each piece is ok(maybe) but all together its a mountain. An orange..when skin on and all together is hard to squeeze- take skin off and break into pieces, the peices are easy to squeeze.

Can you break up/down fear. Why are you worried about this slope/ exercise....

Pete no Idaho, really keen to hear what you have to say

Casey NZSIA L3 ski and board

 

I

post #45 of 52

 

Quote:
However I do have a close working knowledge of fear and used this off  the snow experience and knowledge when teaching.  If you are interested let me know and I will try to put this in written form.

Pete, I'd love it if you would try to put your knowledge into written form, and please add the relevant notes from your CV. People will sit up a pay attention when they know what you used to do for a living.

 

JASP, you may be reinventing the wheel. I suggest you take a look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs and Benjamin Bloom's work on Mastery Learning (in which Bloom's learning partnership model, which PSIA adopted, is introduced) since it appears your interest is in finding ways to optimize the learning partnership

post #46 of 52
Thread Starter 

Thanks NOLO, I am aware of those works and understand how we have used them in past and present teaching models. So in my mind the scale doesn't supplant any of that, it's only a tool to help identify the mental state of the student. For experienced pros there might not be anything new beyond assigning a number to that student's willingness to participate in their own self-improvement. For less experienced pros it offers them a quick reminder to start their lesson by identifying student needs both in the movement world and in the interpersonal "relationship" world. The latter being an area often overlooked by pros who at the beginning of a class rely too much on command teaching to establish an instructor centered teaching environment.  In other words it helps them remember to gather information before trying to develop and propose a plan of action for each student. Which in my world means reinforcing the idea of the instructor stepping out of the spotlight and becoming a consultant to those students.

 

On the other side we have an interesting self assessment tool that like the GCT grid offers the instructor a way to understand their strengths and weaknesses when it comes to their motivational and teaching skills. Are you inspiring your students to join the rest of us in the pursuit of a higher level of understanding of skiing and personal growth? Can we do that if we're not actively pursuing that in our personal life? I doubt it! Climbing that scale is one way to do that.

post #47 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Please share that! How did you overcome that fear? Did you do it all on your own, or did you work with a coach? If you worked with a coach, what did they do to help you overcome that fear?



JASP,  think you misunderstood my entry.  I wasn't talking about myself personnally confronting fear (anymore than normal) but how I devised a little personal system/method to help overcome the fear of primarily newbies to skiing.  I really don't want to just start typing on the computer to answer this question.  Probably this evening I will have time to do the subject a little justice.

 

Nolo, will give it a try. PM sent.

post #48 of 52
Thread Starter 

Can't wait to read it!

post #49 of 52

I didnt read 1 entre but....I AM A 10... Im too sexy for my skiis ,too sexy for my skiis , we should be diso dancing!!LOL couldnt resist soorrryyyy

post #50 of 52
Thread Starter 

You need to change your name to Old Bo (Deric)

post #51 of 52

JASP, I wrote out a fear essay the other night, spent about 2 hours on the subject.  computer ate it when I hit Submit.  I was slighly pis#$#.  After thinking about it for a couple days I really think it was out of the scope of this thread.   However will redo in the next week or so and post as a new thread here in this forum.  title will be Ski Instruction and Fear or something close.  Sorry   Pete

post #52 of 52
Thread Starter 

Thanks for all your work Pete.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching