EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Early weight transfer! Really?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Early weight transfer! Really? - Page 4

post #91 of 96

AV = Apres Vous?

FDB = ?

 

Thanks,

JF

post #92 of 96

Sorry about that AV does mean Apre Vous and FBD is short for First Day Beginner.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4ster View Post

AV = Apres Vous?

FDB = ?

 

Thanks,

JF

post #93 of 96

teton, I have only posted one video of a student skiing so I know exactly what you are refering to. I have never refused to discuss the skiing in that video. Sure there were misstakes made. She was in the back seat and she was rotating and lifting her inside ski but those are not flaws unique to the pressure method. Here you need to be very objective. If you look at the psia skier in posting 69 you can clearly see that he is in the back seat too. So being in the back seat is not unique to the presure method. And the woman in the video was a first timer. The psia instructor probably advanced level.


The problem with our discussion here is that we are comparing a psia instructor on a bunnyhyill that is almost flat with a beginner on steeper terrain. This is not fair. And its not good practise. Unprofessional.
 

I know that the pressure method is kind of old fashion. But good skiing is not about fashion. It is about what works. I have been arround for some time and seen new and old methods go in and out of fashion. Like you say, this seemingly motionless gliding wedge type is the method of today also in many of our ski schools in Europe what I have been observing. I dont like it. It promotes rotation, standing on the inside ski and banking. And these are not assumptions on my part. They are for real. Just look at the video clips.


Perhaps the new gliding wedge makes it easier to move into parallel skiing but there is no proof that it makes better skiers in the end. Or vice versa. Using my method the skiers can many times start skiing intermediate terrain after one lesson. If you dont teach the student how to ski slow and to turn tight and to steer accross the slope and to keep the speed under controll in the fall line the students will be stuck on the bunny hill. Or they will start driving their skis arround with heavy rotation. Like the woman in my video. Thats the default movements you dont want. So why teach them? I dont, I try to do the opposite. I try to eliminate them.

 

Since the students are affraid of the fall line the trick is to teach them how to controll their speed in the fall line. First thing they need to learn is to glide downhill in the fall line in a wedge. Then they need to be able to turn out of the fall line. When they can do this they can try to wedge into the fall line. This is the tricky part. Two reasons. It is fearsome. It is hard to shift the presure from the downhill ski to the uphill ski. 

 

Fistst I have my students turn into the fall line. Then remain in the fall line. And finally turn out of the fall line. This way they can consentrate on pressure distribution. And leaving out all rotation efforts. Simply pressure the outside ski.

post #94 of 96
Thread Starter 

Big difference between upper body rotation and lower leg steering.

 

Big difference between releasing edges and inside ski weighting.

 

There are certainly pitfalls in both methods TDK6, our job as instructors is to avoid the pitfalls and teach the positive movements don't you agree?

 

Our two different approaches both introduce unfamiliar sensations to the new skier and care must be taken to minimize fear and focus on the thrill of the turn!

 

Two of the key elements of good skiing evaluated by PSIA examiners is:

- the ability to turn the feet below a stable upper body (skiing into and out of counter)

- the ability to balance on the outside ski

 

We must agree to disagree on our preferred pathways to parallel skiing!

post #95 of 96


TDK6...  I didn't mean to come off as attacking you, sorry if you feel that way.  As I said I am sure that you put out a great lesson with positive results.  I agree that being "judged" on one video of one FDB student hardly seems fair.  I thought that skier was doing pretty well for a a FDB and I'm pretty sure I noted that at the time of posting.  I mentioned her edge lock and upper body rotational movements in my last post because you seemed to be saying that no one on this forum will acknowledge the points you make in frame capture.  As for the PSIA skier on the bunny slope on post 69....  He is likely a PSIA skier, but the clip itself is from the Epic Academy and Bob Barnes Skiing Encyclopedia not PSIA itself, although IMO PSIA should have clips that good.  The wedge should be done on a relatively flat slope.  As I said in last post, I don't take students onto steeper slopes until they move past the wedge in at least the first half of the turn and can control speed tactically.  IMO Your student was over terrain-ed and going to the "default" movements out of fear.  These things happen in beginner lessons and I don't mean to "judge" her or you for it.  I'm just commenting on what I see.  I also see that the PSIA skier on post 69 is a little aft.  I wouldn't call it backseat, but a bit too far aft for my taste as well.  I would like to see a less "static" demo.  I think if that skier wasn't trying to be so clean and perfect that he wouldn't be aft and the demo would be better and it would be easier for the untrained eye to see what is going on.  The whole center line skier skier thing can make some PSIA skiers appear robotic and I don't like that aspect of the program.

 

I agree with about everything you say in the last 4 paragraphs of your post.  Except that "the gliding wedge approach promotes rotation, standing on the inside ski, and banking".  I have also been skiing long enough to see different ideas come and go.  What approach is taken on a FDBs first day will have little impact years later when that skier, hopefully, attains expert level skills.  I mentioned that I learned the high edge angle snowplow on my first day.  Our job on a new skiers first day is to make it as smooth and easy and fun for them as possible so they will get to rapidly move up the mountain and hopefully become life long skiers.  How good they ultimately get is dependent on them.  

 

Many of my students can also safely start skiing intermediate terrain after one lesson.  I was stuck with the snowplow for a pretty long time.  Of course better equipment has a lot to do with it.  My students can ski safely because I also teach them how to "ski slow and to turn tight and to steer across the slope and to keep the speed under control in the fall line".  Fear is natural for people doing something unfamiliar.  My goal has always been to deal with fear through competence.  IE competence inspires confidence.  This is really important at my mountain because once off the very easy bunny slopes, the overall pitch is very steep compared to a lot of other ski hills.  If I over terrain a student they become my problem and it is not fun for either of us.  Believe me I've done it and learned the hard way AND I will likely do it again, although it rarely happens anymore.  In my experience the gliding wedge featuring rotation (lower leg steering) is more effective for most people in an FDB lesson.  Some people will react better to a more pressure dominated approach and others may do better with a direct to parallel approach.  A good instructor should be able to teach more than one approach but in general will favor the one that works best for them most of the time.   

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

teton, I have only posted one video of a student skiing so I know exactly what you are refering to. I have never refused to discuss the skiing in that video. Sure there were misstakes made. She was in the back seat and she was rotating and lifting her inside ski but those are not flaws unique to the pressure method. Here you need to be very objective. If you look at the psia skier in posting 69 you can clearly see that he is in the back seat too. So being in the back seat is not unique to the presure method. And the woman in the video was a first timer. The psia instructor probably advanced level.


The problem with our discussion here is that we are comparing a psia instructor on a bunnyhyill that is almost flat with a beginner on steeper terrain. This is not fair. And its not good practise. Unprofessional.
 

I know that the pressure method is kind of old fashion. But good skiing is not about fashion. It is about what works. I have been arround for some time and seen new and old methods go in and out of fashion. Like you say, this seemingly motionless gliding wedge type is the method of today also in many of our ski schools in Europe what I have been observing. I dont like it. It promotes rotation, standing on the inside ski and banking. And these are not assumptions on my part. They are for real. Just look at the video clips.


Perhaps the new gliding wedge makes it easier to move into parallel skiing but there is no proof that it makes better skiers in the end. Or vice versa. Using my method the skiers can many times start skiing intermediate terrain after one lesson. If you dont teach the student how to ski slow and to turn tight and to steer accross the slope and to keep the speed under controll in the fall line the students will be stuck on the bunny hill. Or they will start driving their skis arround with heavy rotation. Like the woman in my video. Thats the default movements you dont want. So why teach them? I dont, I try to do the opposite. I try to eliminate them.

 

Since the students are affraid of the fall line the trick is to teach them how to controll their speed in the fall line. First thing they need to learn is to glide downhill in the fall line in a wedge. Then they need to be able to turn out of the fall line. When they can do this they can try to wedge into the fall line. This is the tricky part. Two reasons. It is fearsome. It is hard to shift the presure from the downhill ski to the uphill ski. 

 

Fistst I have my students turn into the fall line. Then remain in the fall line. And finally turn out of the fall line. This way they can consentrate on pressure distribution. And leaving out all rotation efforts. Simply pressure the outside ski.

post #96 of 96

teton, yes she was over terrained. But it was necessary for me to have her ski down that part because that opened up a crucial part of the small ski are for her. And I knew she could pull it off.

 

How wide or braking the wedge is has a lot to do with what kind of person you are. In a group lesson you typically have half the group over wedged and the other underwedged. What is worse is for you to deside but its a big challange to get everyone doing about the same thing. And maintain order. Then you typically have this one person that cannot wedge at all. Eather because of lacking athletic ability or having no trust in herself. Or being scared. In a private lesson the task is much more easy since you can respond 100% to the students needs. The first brake through is when the student keeps on mooving. This I guess is why the word "gliding" is used by psia. The wedge in itself is not worth anything if the skier is not moving. A braking wedge in my opinion indicates stopping. This is good to know offcourse but to be turning you need to be mooving. Having all the students snaking behind you forces them to move.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Early weight transfer! Really?