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post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
Okay, I know its been said many times before. But sometimes it takes awhile for something to click and connect.

Today at Sugarloaf, someone told me to make my turns as slowly as possible. Being practically the slowest skier on the mountain, I found that somewhat puzzling. But in trying to simply "allow" the skis to turn when they "wanted" to, I found myself going DOWN rather than ACROSS.....

And ended up getting down about 3 times faster than I usually do. Weird!! Thinking about going slower made me faster.

A comment was made that women who ski with men are often trying to keep up. As a result, they wrongly assume that making quick directional changes will get them moving down the hill faster. Not sure about this, but its something to think about.

The challenge is to be able to finish the turns when the terrain gets steeper, and when there are "yard sales" happening all over the place.

But at least I can now feel, rather than simply understand what the slow line fast is about! [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #2 of 24
lisamarie- I may be way off base here or perhaps not understand the question. maybe I'm wrong here as I'm often told at Epic. making a turn slowly as possible could mean two different things.
First- This may refer to carving. going into a turn one wants to initiate it slowly (as oppossed to quick short turns)by turning more slowly into the falline and slowly tipping the skis over on edge more and more and slightly more forward knee pressure, depending on how much side cut your skis have. Less side cut, more forward pressure. Donig this allows me to carve a line from one side of a very wide run clear to the other. With my skis if I put too much forward pressure on them, they instantly come out of a carve and zip across the hill!

Second- In short turns I see peole rush their turns. In this I mean that they will start a turn, and come out of it very fast. it looks like a lower case letter 'c' where they end up going perpendicular to the fall line. coming out of the turn you see them quickly bring their uphill ski parrallel to the downhill ski. When I say 'quickly' I mean rapid, like warp 2! This means they aren't balanced properly on their outside ski. Often this is accompanied by upper body rotation. They don't face downhill in their turns.
I offer no correction at this time because maybe this is not what you are talking about. And it may be I can take lessons from you!
I had one lesson where my student's parents tagged along. I saw this short turn problem in them. I ended up teaching all of them. The kid was tickled he was on the big people hill. The parents were greatly impressed with their smoother skiing!
But then on the groomed or in crud I look like an 8 or 8.5! i tried the really deep heavy stuff on the sides of the runs. Then... : I looked like a 1!!!! I think I need more speed to stay on top of that stuff. Stay in the middle of the skis? Sit back a bit more, a lot more? I need help! :
Anyway, do any of the two situations above fit? Or are we talking about something else?
post #3 of 24
Eski mentioned the same thing at Jay Peak. Slow movements produce fast skiing; faster, snappier turns (e.g. in the trees) would allow you to go slower.
post #4 of 24
I found it quite amazing that when I was moving up through the ranks of PSIA I found that many things I thought I understood, I didn't. I would hear these movement patterns and ideas espressed many times and I would have my own image of these movements and ideas packed away in my head. The light bulb would go off and suddenly I would understand what was really being said and marvel at the fact that I couldn't see it before.
Lisamarie, I will guarantee you that as much as you have read the pages here, that there are many more suprises and lights waiting to be turned on. When you really realize this you will get yourself attuned to really looking for them.
post #5 of 24
Pierre eh!-

Was my last post headed in the right driection or is Lisa refering to something else?
post #6 of 24
JYD, Lisa didn't ask a question. She gave a beautiful post and was marveling at the new understanding that she gained about something often discussed here. Your post is not some much wrong as just out of place. I think what you are doing is trying to clarify your own understanding of the things she is expressing by seeing you're thoughts in writing. I have done that often in this forum. I could be wrong.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ February 11, 2002 07:06 AM: Message edited 1 time, by Pierre eh! ]</font>
post #7 of 24
Thread Starter 
Actually, you were. As far of the carving thing, one of the gems I picked up from Todd last year is that I have a tendency to try to get my skis on edge too quickly, which can upset my entire balance. To regain it, I then end up in a skid.
This has been helped ENORMOUSLY now that I've packed in the liner of my new boots and footbeds.

You are correct on the counter rotation thing, too. Part of it is defensive, part of it is incorrect carry over from other activities such as dance, but I do have a tendency to counter rotate. I was also told at a funtional training workshop that I have unusually strong internal obliques. It seems I've substituted overusing my quads for overusing my obliques!

The most helpful thing, is , once again the pole plant, becaucse it emphasizes and affirms the DOWN the hill rather than the across the hill action.

My next step is to make this work on steeper terrain.
post #8 of 24
I have found that graceful,balanced movements produce powerful results.
post #9 of 24

How would you describe the shape of those slower-moving turns? What phase of the turn required the most patience?

ESki is right-on: move slow to go fast.

It's a twist on what my grandpappy used to say, "If you can't sing pretty, sing loud!"

"If you can't turn well, turn fast!"
post #10 of 24
congrats on the breakthrough LM

Keep it up.. [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #11 of 24
Thread Starter 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nolobolono:

How would you describe the shape of those slower-moving turns? What phase of the turn required the most patience?

ESki is right-on: move slow to go fast.

It's a twist on what my grandpappy used to say, "If you can't sing pretty, sing loud!"

"If you can't turn well, turn fast!"

Definitely more "S" shaped, as opposed to my usual Z. It was the turn iniation that I needed to be more patient with. For some reason, I was incorrectly thinking that fast iniation would bring about a faster turn. WRONG!

Something else. So much of learning to ski comes down to communication, and how the student interprets and stores the info recieved from the instructor.
On my second ski lesson, I was told that if I get onto a situation where I'm skiing a slope that is too advanced, I should use the traverse. That stuck with me longer than it should have. On a crowded slope, the traverse is the most dangerous thing you can do.

I've said this before, but I think the travrse should be taught MAINLY as a means of getting from one point to another, NOT as anxiety management. The side slip is far more effective for that sort of thing.

Thanks for the feedback!
post #12 of 24
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nolobolono:

"If you can't sing pretty, sing loud!"
"If you can't turn well, turn fast!"

This could be a great sticker.
post #13 of 24
congratulations, LM

I would estimate that 97% of skiers [img]smile.gif[/img] do not get on their edges early enough in a turn, and of those that realize the importance of doing so, most try to do it by forcing the skis onto edge.

I learned the value of early edge and what the ski can do through a drill on an almost-flat green run like this:

1) Adopt a wide track stance, perhaps 4-6" wider than your hip width.

2) Get into a tuck-like position, but don't put your hands out front as if skiing a DH race.

3) To turn right, reach both hands around to touch your left lateral malleolus (left outside ankle bone)

4) To turn left, do the same only touch the right ankle

5) do this for 8-10 turns each way

6) now that you have the feeling, try to recreate the same thing WITHOUT the reach-around, and instead using your turn right, feel that inside the boot you are rolling your left ankle inward. Do not move your body across to the right. Allow it to coninue facing downhill. The ski's radius along with your squared upper body should cause your left knee to be INSIDE the turn.

7) do the mirror image for a left turn.
post #14 of 24
Having read a few of the replies here, what we seem to be talking about is the thing I discovered (in a Eureka kinda way) at the start of last season.
It was the bit that I would say "pushed me beyond the intermediate plateau". I'm not advanced or expert, but just being able to get my turns to work properly made an immense difference to my skiing.

Congrats LM. Now the fun really starts!

post #15 of 24

Perhaps I am confused about the concept, but my understanding of skiing the slow line fast is somewhat different than what you described. In fact, skiing the slow line fast should generally mean that you are getting down the slope slower, but moving faster along the path you travel (I hope this makes sense to you). Here is how I understood it (again, I could be wrong):

Some skiers take a relatively straight line down the slope and use skidding (Z turns) to slow down. They don't travel across the slope to slow down, but they use gross defensive movements (skidding, pivoting, over-rotation) to put on the brakes. This is what I understand to be skiing the "fast line slow".

To ski the slow line fast means that you have to complete your turns, without rushing them and therefore without skidding and pivoting and braking. When the terrain is steeper or when you are doing pure carves you may even have to turn up the hill to slow down. The skis may become perpendicular to the fall line when completing turns, but that is OK, as long as you don't start traveling across the run. Generally skiers that complete their turns and carve (rather than skid) travel faster, but also longer, because they take the slow path down the mountain.

Here is an analogy: when hiking down the mountain you can go straight down or zigzag down the mountain. Going straight down means that you have to make a considerable effort to slow down or your will lose control and fall. Zigzagging down the mountain means that you are taking a longer distance (slow line) but you don't have to slow yourself down as much (you can even run along the path safely). If both hikers get down in equal amount of time, then the zigzag person clearly traveled faster (did the slow line fast).

Maybe instructors can comment on this?
post #16 of 24
Tom, I think that she did get it.
post #17 of 24

the comment was not about "skiing slow line fast", but rather about "slow movements that produce fast skiing" (both in terms of ground speed and downhill speed). E.g. I would have way more time to do edge change going down the hill in GS or long radius turns at fairly high rate of speed. On the other hand while tree skiing I would do 5 edge changes for each GS one, but I would hope to be travelling 5 times slower.

Hence, slow movements produce fast skiing.
post #18 of 24
milesb, eug,

On second thought, you guys are probably right! :


Please ignore my post. Must have been sleeping when I read yours. Sorry about that! [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #19 of 24
Nolo, thanks to you and your grandpappy for providing us a nice colorful way to describe an undesirable practice.
post #20 of 24
BEWARE... some have been talking about slow movements to go fast. Some have moved that issue toward the notion of learning and changing/adapting movements mid-turn. Short radius turns are not susceptible to open-loop learning. They are closed-loop. If you didn't start the turn correctly, you must try to fix it on the next turn, not while in the turn. With rhythmic short radius turns down the hill, there isn't a lot of room for error -- it becomes a chain of errors.

As Bob Barnes points out in distinguishing open- and closed-loop learning, closed-loop learning is done by repetition of the proper movements until the movement is natural and instinctive.

Open-loop learning allows you to take mid-turn feedback and correct technical errors while still in the turn.
post #21 of 24
Pierre eh!- yep i think you're right. Sorry Lisa. I think what I described is a common occurrance. I think Lisa stated it fine. It's a eureka thing or in psych. what we call the Aha! theory. : It's that point where the brain has been working on this stuff and finally puts it all together and, viola- it works! It's like learning to ride a bike. You try, your fall, again and again then one day suddenly you're riding like a champ!
Gonzo's drill sounds challenging but good practice. I still have too much of a belly to get down that far! opps! Lisa is going to jump me for that! I have lost 10# lately. Feel better, ski better. now ... if I could just get through this mashed potato type stuff 2 ft deep!
Getting on edge early in a turn without rushing it I've found if I act like I'm falling downhill and let the skis catchup with me seems to be a smooth motion into edging. Feels neat too. I think Jean Claude Killy mentioned this one time. Ideas?
post #22 of 24
A relaxed and comfortable skier will get down the mountain faster than a stiff defensive one. The individual skiers moves will reflect the mind set. LM appears to be making the transition from "thinking and tenseing" to "feeling and flowing".

Is this a quiet mind, fast feet happening?

Can the girl combine the thinking and the flowing and make the expert breakthrough?

Way to go LM.

Oz [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #23 of 24
Thread Starter 
Why, thank you! You know, awhile ago there was a thread called "is skiing intuitive?"

I still contend that it is not.

But its the paradoxes of skiing that make it so fascinating.

Thinking about turning slowly will get you down faster than trying to turn quickly.

Skiing WITHOUT the brakes on controls speed a heck of alot better than skiing with the brakes on.

But like anything else in life, defensive maneuvers usually end up working against us!
post #24 of 24 Brookline Grrl,
OK..HERE GOES...that short-radius, steeper stuff!!..I think it's pretty safe to say that the steeps are a passion of many of us Bears.
Some of what the guys are talkin' about centers on not pivoting the skis, but a controlled(GRADUAL!) combination of skid and carve beginning with a somewhat extended outside/downhill leg....used with patience in order to *load* the ski to some degree...then as mentioned...*Finish the turn* "have the skis end up turned..*ACROSS* the fall-line to a large degree..not diagonally DOWN it, but NOT FOR AN ETERNITY!!!!
Heed the advice of the others as to limiting the length of carving time in relation to overall desired speed...and the shorter, more rapid radius stuff requires equally faster foot movement to change those edges...and keep playing with the hill & MoTha_gravity than with longer radius stuff on the flats.

It's all Easy To Say!!, but a lot of the thrill comes from those *breakthroughs*..imo. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
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