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Mogul instruction - Mogul Logic

post #1 of 33
Thread Starter 
Just wanted to share - I went to a 2 day Mogul Logic ski clinic at Killington last weekend, and it was the best ski class I've taken yet.

The coaches were all world cup and olympic mogul skiers (92 Olympics), and teach you how to do bumps 'competition style' (zipper line bump skiing - even doing some jumps with tricks). Most of the people that go to the camps are definitely bumpers. They ski on bump skis all the time (or most of the time). Mogul Logic usually does a fall and spring camp in Killington, and have a few one week summer camps at Whistler.

I learned a ton. I am officially converted to a bumper and am even keeping the mogul skis I was not sure of before (now that I know how to use them right.. there is no comparison in the bumps between a mogul ski and a shaped ski - mogul ski is clearly better). I might even make them my #1 ski and keep the mid-fat for powder or tree days.

Anyway, just wanted to share my newfound 'enthusiasm'. If you like bumps and want to learn a lot, check these guys out.
post #2 of 33
Are you going to get pants with a two part smiley face on the knees?
post #3 of 33
Thread Starter 
Now.. that would be cool, smily face on the knees.. I am sure you were kidding, but I do wonder what cool pants with stuff on the knees they do sell other than the standard 'mogul pants' (with marks on the knees to accentuate the technique), and where to get them (this girl at the camp actually had put a big 'Marvin the Martian' on each of her knees.. looked pretty cool - amazing skier also so she could get away with it). I am thinking of getting, at some point, 'mogul pants' but at my current level all it will accentuate is that I still need help. I'll wait a year or two, for when I start signing up for some of those end of season 'amateur mogul challenges' (and of course still get spanked.. but I am sure it's fun trying). What am I saying.. I'll probably buy something next year, just need to find one I like that is not too obnoxious.<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Mack (edited May 02, 2001).]</FONT>
post #4 of 33
i've had their video and CD-rom for a while now - i learned a TON from them. their web site only lists the spring session at killington - are they definitely having a fall session?
post #5 of 33
Thread Starter 
What they told me was that they try to have a fall session (the weekend before Thanksgiving) and two spring sessions (the last two weekends in April) every year at Killington. However, this year they were able to only have the one spring session.

They are planning on a fall session but I would not count on it yet.. just keep checking their web site.
post #6 of 33
mack, you know they REALLY do make bump skiing pants w/ half a smiley face on each knee. saw one of the amatuer bump skiers over at heavenly wearing them.
post #7 of 33
Thread Starter 
wonder where I can get one.. and thus the search begins..
post #8 of 33
Based on Mack's recommendation after failing to convince him to sell me his bump skis I bought the video/CDROM yesterday. When I called Mogul Logic, the director, Chuck Martin, answered the phone. We chatted for a bit after he took my order (By the way, Mack, he says you're a great guy!) and he noticed my Bay Area address and asked about skiing Squaw. I did my best to convince him to do a two-day camp here and he is considering it. Woohoo!

I also gave him the address of this board so maybe he'll stop by and say hi.
post #9 of 33
Can anyone post their web address? How much did they charge and for how long?
post #10 of 33

prices are listed under each camp session
post #11 of 33
Is their camp geared only towards zipper line skiing or do they do more "normal" bump skiing also?
Personally I think it's too bad that mogul competitions rely on straight lines and timing. It would be more interesting if people did different types of turns but you couldn't win under current rules.

Perhaps you could share some specific techniques you've learned.
post #12 of 33
I'm of a different opinion. I love the zipper-line style of skiing; both in contests and for fun.

I used to think competitive bump skiers weren't turning until I had the chance to watch a live bump contest from right along the course at Heavenly. The competitors were making perfect, round, carved turns but they were extremely short and quick.

I agree that making a variety of turns is a lot of fun and I do that all over the mountain but in the bumps, I like to run the zipper line. I can't always do it and often have to bale out of the line with a longer turn but when I do manage to stay in, I'm having a ball!

One question for you instructor/competitor types: Everyone talks about bump skiers making short turns. I always assumed they were refering to short radius turns. However, looking at the turn shape of a bump skier, I think it's actually a very long radius turn but for a very short period of time. Is that a different version of a short turn?
post #13 of 33
It's a longer turn than it looks because the skis follow a topographically complex line.
post #14 of 33
i LOVE skiing the zipperline, but i agree that the kinds of standards that world cup bumpers are held to tend to restrict creativity and freedom. yeah, i think it's harder to ski the zipperline well, but once you get it, it becomes one technique of many that you can use in the bumps.

i was really enlightened one year watching the "wayne wong hot dog" tourney they have at Alpine every year. it's basically an old school (and i mean OLD) comp w/ a bump run, 1 jump, and a ballet section at the end, all in 1 run. some of the old school moves in the bumps were sweet - slow-dog noodles, doing multiple jumps off of bumps, worm turns, etc. it looked like a lot of fun and i started trying them. the ballet stuff looked pretty fun, too.
post #15 of 33
Zipperline is like Quake 3.
post #16 of 33
I love watching the zipper line skiing but my Old knees will no longer take the beating.
I used to do the ballet thing, worm turns, christies and such but alas age again takes it's toll.. relaxed controlled smooth runs through the bumps for me... (and I'm finally getting better at it)

Mack, Good to hear of good learning experiences. Thanks for the report...<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by dchan (edited May 03, 2001).]</FONT>
post #17 of 33
what gravity is talking about (i think of it as scooting) - hopping over the troughs - is REALLY fun on powdered up bumps. you just don't do the usual absorption-extension, and you basically catch air off each bump.

another variation - have you tried skiing exactly opposite the zipperline? a friend taught me this one. it feels wierd, but you turn on the ridge line over the tops of the bumps and never get into the zipperline. you end up skiing a tight line, but relatively flat, so you can make more than just 1 turn per bump.
post #18 of 33
just curious - where does one learn ballet/acro skiing? i've been messing around w/ christies (almost got that one down - i guess it's basically skiing on the outside edge and kicking the other ski back), but i've seen the other moves so infrequently that i haven't figured them out yet.
post #19 of 33
I suspect now it would be trial and error.
I'm pretty sure all the old "new school" ballet skiers learned that way. I don't know of anyone teaching that stuff. Dig out some old tapes of Suzy Chaffee or Wayne Wong and go for it.
Set the bindings way down at first because at first you will be going pretty slow. it's easier on the bones and joints if you pop out and fall than if you don't pop out and fall really slowly.

Christies are cool. Then try doing a 180 or 360 in that position. then try a royal christy in which the ski in the air is not parallel to the ground but directly behind you and tip almost draging and tail straight up. (at least that's what I was told) When you can do that, try digging the tip of the ski that is in the air and do a "crossover and spin at the same time.

Oh yeah, get some super short skis. 150 with twin tips. Unless you are very flexible they will be a big help.
post #20 of 33

That would be a Royal Christie, if the ski goes back behind you. Otherwise, we just call them "outside-outsides", since you're going from outside edge to outside edge. Find someone who's been teaching for 20+ years, and you'll be pretty sure of having someone who knows that stuff and can show it to you. There are loads of ways to goof off on the hill, and they were pros at it back then. Ott would be a great teacher for that sort of stuff. I know some of it, from hanging around some the old-timers, but I'm sure there are things I have yet to see.
post #21 of 33
Here is a website that has some pictures/drawings. the only problem is it's in korean
post #22 of 33
yeah, i think you're right - i can basically do 'em, but i don't have the old-school lingo down. unlike you guys, i didn't live through the old-school back when it was the new-school (heh, heh)

where'd you come up with that site? obscure, but pretty interesting pics. thanks.
post #23 of 33
somewhere in the archives of my memory?
google search!
if you use the navagation on the bottom of the site you can see more tricks. they give some english captions on some of the bits and pieces. I poked around a little more. Cool. I always wondered what that twisted up move was I learned.. aptly named Leg breaker. I never broke anything but I can see why called that
post #24 of 33
Thread Starter 
Wow - did not figure this thread would go so far.

Someone asked up top if the class was for 'zipper line' or 'normal' (whatever that means) bump skiing. They teach the same techniques used for competitive bump skiing. However, many of those concepts can also be used even if you don't want to ski the bumps that aggresively (like absorption and extension, pole planting in the bumps, looking forward a few bumps, turning using knee action instead of hip action for those really short turns.. etc..).

Personally, now that I know how to do it better (can't say I have it right yet.. let's wait a couple of more camps for that), I enjoy the zipper line skiing (I used to not like it, since I was getting either banged around or launched off the bumps). I know how to ski them less aggresively, on the shaped skis.. but everytime I see a guy just crushing them straight down I think 'I wish I could do that'.. now I am a step closer.
post #25 of 33
sounds great. Maybe next year. Are you going to Killington this weekend to practice? They might have snow left even after this absurd 90 deg. weather.

Gravity, I want to go to your bump camp! When is it?

Last year while laying around after the acl operation I caught the first World Hot Dog Competition on ESPN classic. I think it was in California sometime around '72,
73? By today's standards a lot of the bump performances were laughable, but the other stuff was really cool. I don't remember what it is exactly they were doing but it was really interesting. Outriggers were neat. The whole atmoshpere was very different than todays comps, not so technical, really "groovy".

"Freestyle" mogul comps should be called "mogul racing" because they certainly aren't freestyle.

I remember Moseley's run in the '98 Olympics. Really exciting. The expectations were really high creating a lot of tension before that second run. He comes down in that fast rythm zipper style looking really good though there's a slight hesitation as if he's really trying to hold it together. Then he hits the second(?) jump and pulls that mute grab. It was beautiful the way that slow rotation and long air contrasted with the frenetic banging of the zipper line. When he lands it you can tell he's more relaxed and it's just bang on home to the finish line.

I was watching with a bunch of people some of whom had never skied. They all thought it was awesome, very exciting. With that one run, particularly that one jump and also his personality, Moseley had a huge effect on the perception of the sport. Skiing was fun, and cool again. Then on Letterman or Leno(?) they ask him if there's anything he wants to say to America. "Yeah. Go skiing!" That's great.
Interestingly, he says the most dangerous thing he'd done on skis at the time were the jumps for the Letterman show. They built a rickety wooden jump out on 53rd st. in NYC with plastic carpet and soap.(NYC Union stage carpenters building a ski jump?!) It was pouring rain when he made the jumps. He didn't like the whole situation at all.

I'd like to see a true "freestyle" bump contest where you don't have to follow the zipper and can do whatever style you want.
post #26 of 33
Yeah! Now that's skiing in the largest sense of the word. You'd really have to be well rounded to win one of those! Something like that I think would really get people excited about skiing. It's not some technical event where everyone looks the same. People would get into it and be like "That looks like fun!. How can I learn some of that stuff?" There's few people who really want to learn zipper line bumping. Though I respect it, especially at a high level, frankly I don't find it very interesting. (Still, wouldn't mind learning it)
Are freeskiing comps still "free"? (Whatever that means) Or are there lots of rules and stuff?<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Tog (edited May 03, 2001).]</FONT>
post #27 of 33
Couldn't they do this type of freestyle at the X games? Skier cross is idiotic in comparison. (Does anyone 'really' like to do skier cross?)
Ah, but the carnage potential is high for skier cross so public/tv likes it. Still, they could eliminate the stupid riding of mountain bikes on snow trying to go around gates. Now that should be banned! It's not even interesting to watch.
post #28 of 33

When you feel the need to make something competitive, it's no longer 'free'. As in: it's no longer 'free'style, 'free'skiing, or... 'free'dom.

The type of bump skiing you're alluding to would be ruined if it were brought competitive because all sorts of rules, whether implied or unspoken would inevitably manifest themselves in order for any judging to take place. I've watched every new breath-of-fresh-air brought into this sport get squelched because someone felt the need to make it competitive and/or exploit it.

True freestyle was at it's height in the early '70's because it hadn't yet been formatted completely for comps. Today you can see what that formatting has matured into - rigid, uninteresting disciplines. The same is currently happening in 'new school' aerials and 'freeskiing'. Just the nature of the word DISCIPLINE says it all. Creativity goes right down the tubes.

Have you ever seen a 'freeskiing' comp event? The one I started to watch in Las Lenas was so boring we left before the first competitor had finished his run. There is NO 'freeskiing' involved at all - it's not a smooth, spontaneous, flowing run. It's calculated and abrupt, and even a highly intense splat factor just will never make up for that.

Save the competition for the race course... please.
post #29 of 33
take a look at what happened to surfing. You watch really good surfer out playing around, and they frickin' rip! Inverted air, riding the tops of waves backwards, board slides, etc. Then watch a cometition. BOOOOOORRRiinnnggg. ooh, hey, he did 8 cut backs... neato.
post #30 of 33
I read a book in High School called Playboy's Guide to Ultimate Skiing. It was a description of 25 or so of the top ski areas in North America. I poured over that book for hours, studying the photos and descriptions as I planned to ski each and every one of those resorts.

At the end of the book they had a section on each of the "experiences." Cruising, steeps, powder, bumps, air, etc. In the powder section the author was ranting a bit about the new (1981) rage, Powder-8 contests. He commented that judging powder skiing was as absurd as having an opera contest.

I wonder if mankind's tendancy to turn everything into a competition is more due to our egos or more due to some company seeing a way to make more money off the sport.<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by KevinH (edited May 04, 2001).]</FONT>
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