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post #61 of 89
Firstly congratulations on learning thread Hi jacking. I wonder if Hunter will be able to find any replies to his post.

None of the following is meant as troll!

Quote:
Originally posted by John Mason:
I skied 6 days that week. And by the end of the 4th day of my ski week after crossing my tips numerous times on blues in a survival mode I started lifting my inside ski and tipping it to get it out of the way.
Most students do what you have done. Taken a little instruction and extrapolated it above their level of competance. Skiing is an adventure sport and generally everyone gets a little goal-orientated and wants to go higher/faster/further, often too fast.
Sometimes they then look back with less than charitable hindsight at the person who gave them the initial information.
The fact that you also took a race training course reinforces this analysis. Racing may be one of your goals along with geting to be a high level skier. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

The skills you were given were to introduce you to skiing and keep you safe and allow you to refine and develop... You reckoned the speed and timing of the information was wrong; maybe it was.

But if you were learning to drive a car you wouldn't expect to be taught how to drive on a four lane road on your first lesson. You would be taught to hone your skills in a relatively safe environment before tackling speeds of 70mph in the rush hour.

If you perceive you are in the upper percentile of ski learners you must (and also should be able to from your long posts) also appreciate that you are NOT the norm. Most people DON'T learn the way you do. SOME people learn the way you do.

Do you want all ski teachers to go with your model just because it happened to suit you? Ski instructors get to see a large number of learner types, students only a few, hence sudents statistics are often skewed.

It seems like you want to understand more about skiing and why people teach the way they do and why there are different opinions. Fair goals.
But to understand you need to listen as well as shouting 'I'm Confused. You said this, he says that...'.

Many of the threads here demonstrate the problems people have with describing skiing in words. A straight answer to satisfy and illuminate things to all is not always possible.

May I suggest that your future lessons are done on a more collaboratative basis and that guided discovery would be an ideal way for you to reach many of your goals.

And, if you want to know why many of the responses here, are what they are, learn to and teach skiing for a bit! :
post #62 of 89
Thread Starter 
Interesting reading, not what I was asking but interesting none the less.

I was not trying to compare HH against Lemaster but the reason I asked for a video but not in the HH mold was due to a number of reasons:

I guess firstly I am guided by the common opinion amongst many ski instructors that Le Masters approach is the technical benchmark, whereas HH is more about clever marketing.

I am attracted to the pure technical content of Le Master against the seemingly "move more product approach" of HH and his books, videos, courses etc...

I am not taken by the somewhat gimmicky content of HH teachings and as someone else said I am not deluded into thinking I can ever ski like a champion.

The complexity of some of the posts above is somewhat beyond me so I am not in a position to say whether one has more merit than the other, suffice to say I will continue to read Le Master as my technical text to better my skiing and look forward to his next book and only wish he would compile a video.

Do continue your disscussions as I am learning much.

Thanks Hunter [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #63 of 89
Thread Starter 
Why has all of the text in John Mason's posts been deleted ? :
post #64 of 89
Hunter - I think the Le Masters book may still be a text book here for instructors... CarveMan will know...
post #65 of 89
Quote:
Originally posted by Hunter.:
Why has all of the text in John Mason's posts been deleted ? :
'Cos he deleted them.

I HATE to say it but,
if it walks like a troll, talks like a troll....
post #66 of 89
Yo, John Mason, are you ok. It seems you have gone missing. What did you say? Hey man its OK everyone makes mistakes and at Epic you will only be judged on the specifics.

But John, it's also OK to edit (I hope that that is what happened and nothing more serious).

Edge, pressure, steer is still what I use to turn. Recently I have been avoiding pressuring the boot and standing with more rear foot.

John, I hope you are all right.
post #67 of 89
What's a troll?
post #68 of 89
Why in the world did I go to bed?

It's like waking up in the morning and looking out over the carnage of a battlefield.

The only thing is one of the bodies is gone!
post #69 of 89
Quote:
Originally posted by Nettie:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hunter.:
Why has all of the text in John Mason's posts been deleted ? :
'Cos he deleted them.

I HATE to say it but,
if it walks like a troll, talks like a troll....
</font>[/quote]Again....the poor guy was over at real skiers posting at 4:30 in the morning with the 96 others.

well, OK, he was alone!
post #70 of 89
On me sending a PM saying he was rude to do what he did.
Quote:
by John Mason

nah - it wasn't rude - I had stepped into an irrelevant long history of dogie poo and didn't know it. Most of what everyone is saying is so tainted by their many year histories no one is thinking straight.

Bob Barnes has it right with tip right go right but when he actually delves into it in detail, he throws in leg steering immediatly. He thinks this is the same as PMTS and says so, but it's not. So I'm basically dealing with some ego conflicts on this subject where it cannot be discussed rationally. Bob's post about the perfect turn was great, but a different post Bob did in 2002 where he greatly expounds on it, shows he really still doesn't get it. He thinks you can't do a tip and tilt without a stem christie at low speed. He uses an example of a PMTS coach as an illustration. But then discusses how you use leg steering in the turn as soon as it develops. But this leg steering is the cause of the Stem Christie. Then Bob says the Stem Christie might appear as a moment in the training sequence and I realize that he has never actually done this and assumes he knows what PMTS is or how it works. Oh well.

Meanwhile the whole centerline approach he refers do as being a good direction and he feels is the same as PMTS in many ways doesn't really exist anymore and has been replaced with an ad hoc teach want you want approach.

No wonder this industry is a total mess.

Once I started delving into the history I realized no one is going to be logical. No one is going listen. People are going to be using terms incorrectly. So what's the point. I just pulled my posts.

At first I thought there was agreement with tip and tilt and the perfect turn, but upon detailed examiniation there are still real differences. Too bad.

I see people able to do very slow speed phantom move turns with no wedge all the time. I do them myself. Is the wedge still useful. Absolutly for speed control in lines etc. But it in most cases is counterproductive and holds a student up as they are almost ineveitably thinking press big toe on outside ski to turn which is so counter productive. It's not the wedge that easy to unlearn, its the big toe active leg steering of the outside leg. People get stuck in it for years to their great detriment.

I ramble on.

Thanks for the private note. Your post in the thread was quite good. Sorry if I offended people by retracting all. I don't think the overall discussion will be helpful to anyone and if it won't help people than I don't want it up. Maybe the admin can yank all posts but the ones relevant to the original posters question and in essence un-hijack the thread. ]

edited for missing word
post #71 of 89
The point made by JM above in an apparently 'private' note refers again to the problem of the wedge "Is the wedge still useful. Absolutly for speed control in lines etc. But it in most cases is counterproductive and holds a student up .."

I would be interested in your views on this , Nettie etc, in the Lost Plough thread I started as it looked as if this one was delfdestructuing earlier today.
post #72 of 89
History can repeat itself
post #73 of 89
Quote:
Originally posted by daslider:
I would be interested in your views on this , Nettie etc, in the Lost Plough thread
Quote:
Now that was just damn rude
removing your posts to make the thread impossible.
I suggest you don't come back for a while you will have made a lot of people very unhappy.
That's all I said to John on the matter. The rest is his rerant which I think clarifies most of his points [img]tongue.gif[/img] .

I have little to add to the plough thread other than I have seen it put to more uses ('1001 uses of a plough' coming soon on a board near you! ) by a Canadian examiner than I could have ever anticipated.

The biggest problem of intermediates I see is they go too steep, too fast and then ask someone to fix things for them. Parents do it to their kids, kids do it, husbands do it to their spouses, arrogant people do it, stupid people do it...

Almost nothing to do with what we teach 'em.
post #74 of 89
By this I understand too steep relative to what you have taught them so far, they've just raced ahead! That's normal enough, amazing how many people think kids learn to swim by dropping them in the deep end.
post #75 of 89
Yup! 5 year olds skiing with daddy on black moguls. Dad 'She's really good'... maybe?

...but will be spending a looooong time getting out of the backseat, so wide only child can do it, racing, braking snowplough with upper body wrench initiation. [img]graemlins/evilgrin.gif[/img]
post #76 of 89
Hmmm.... Rude:

1. Relatively undeveloped; primitive: a rude and savage land; a rude agricultural implement.
2.
1. Being in a crude, rough, unfinished condition: a rude thatched hut.
2. Exhibiting a marked lack of skill or precision in work: rude crafts.
3. In a natural, raw state: bales of rude cotton.
3.
1. Lacking the graces and refinement of civilized life; uncouth.
2. Lacking education or knowledge; unlearned.
3. Ill-mannered; discourteous: rude behavior.

...I'd say it was rude...
post #77 of 89
Hi guys - I see my a-hem - "private" message to Nettie is now up here.

Look, I was not aware of the long history of animosity here till yesterday. I didn't see the point of what amounted to hijacking a thread and getting into a discussion on the finer points of turning till I read enough to understand what the observed differences are.

So, here is what I'm gonna do. I will at some point, hopefully when Bob is is awake, come up with a lucid and clear difference between what Bob calls the perfect turn and the apparent contradictions he makes with himself in other threads where he explains himself more completely.

If people here can respond without all the overely defensive behaviour most will find that the definition of the perfect turn is very close to what I would consider the perfect turn as well. But there is still differences in the details and I would enjoy clarification on these.

I will not reference HH but will reference Lito and Eric and Rob. I will not do it here on the post I should not have hijacked this thread on the spur of the moment. I have read enough of this long history now that I believe I can isolate just the differences as I see them.

Many who responded here keep referring to "its the marketing approach that's different", but I'm afraid it's a little more than that. The key point of difference, just so people can get their thoughts warmed up, is that term that would probably cause many here to get emotional, and that term is - of course - the "stance ski". This sole term, from what I have read of Bob Barnes Perfect Turn posts but even more from Bob's own commentary on his own posts is a pretty significant difference of understanding in turn philosophy. So start thinking about that and I'll work in the next couple of days on a lucid clear post as a discussion starter so you can all convince me or help me understand if there is actually a difference in fundamentals or if there is just a marketing disagreement as many suggested.

Anyway - sorry if I upset anyone here. It was not the intent. I should have read up on the apparently long history of posts on these subjects to realize I was in essence stepping in it. So I have now washed off my foot and I'll try my own post to describe the "Perfect Turn" at my current level of understanding and contrast where it differs from Bob's actually very impressively written "Perfect Turn". As we explore these differences we will see or better define our terms and perhaps discover mutually more nuances of turning the skis.

And - anyone going to be at Mammoth Thu Fri Saturday and wanna share some trips down the mountain?

[ March 08, 2004, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: John Mason ]
post #78 of 89
Well put John. Welcome back. I look forward to a more controlled discussion.

PS, I think it's ok to Reference HH, Lito, Eric and Rob, just plan on backing up any references with good info and fact. be prepared to be challanged into thinking carefully, trying it and giving feed back. Don't just say "HH says XYZ" and leave it at that. I don't think it's his skiing or turning that is in question, Most are aware there are good ideas in all camps. It's the method and marketing that is in question. If you are willing to listen try and learn, we will all benefit.
post #79 of 89
[ March 08, 2004, 02:45 AM: Message edited by: John Mason ]
post #80 of 89
Thread Starter 
Um... deleting posts in the middle of a thread is bad form John, better to have stood by your comments.

I will forgive you if you go back and retype them word for word though.
post #81 of 89
Quote:
Originally posted by Nettie:
The biggest problem of intermediates I see is they go too steep, too fast and then ask someone to fix things for them. Parents do it to their kids, kids do it, husbands do it to their spouses, arrogant people do it, stupid people do it...

Almost nothing to do with what we teach 'em.
Yep. And we are meant to fix years of the above in one hour...
I have learned to dread the words "my friend has been teaching me, and..." argh!
post #82 of 89
Quote:
Originally posted by ant:
Yep. And we are meant to fix years of the above in one hour...
[/QB]
I just spent the day working with a woman who had amassed a lifetime worth of habits. It was indeed tough. Every turn began with a sequential weight shift back, and then some sort of tail movement in the direction opposite the desired turn.

I did something a little different. I asked her to humor me and do a progression of gliding wedges and wedge christies. She could not do a gliding wedge She would "release" the inside foot and then shove the tail of the inside ski inward or in the opposite direction of the desired turn. The inside ski would "clang" into the outside ski and then she would push both tails.

I know she has been doing this for a long time!
post #83 of 89
Quote:
Originally posted by Hunter.:
Um... deleting posts in the middle of a thread is bad form John, better to have stood by your comments.

I will forgive you if you go back and retype them word for word though.
Oh well - I'm new here an learning. I have started over in a more positive way in a format where I will better amass into my little pea brain as much knowledge as I can from you guys.

Please forgive me - I can't retype them! [img]graemlins/angel.gif[/img]
post #84 of 89
Quote:
Originally posted by ant:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Nettie:
The biggest problem of intermediates I see is they go too steep, too fast and then ask someone to fix things for them. Parents do it to their kids, kids do it, husbands do it to their spouses, arrogant people do it, stupid people do it...

Almost nothing to do with what we teach 'em.
Yep. And we are meant to fix years of the above in one hour...
I have learned to dread the words "my friend has been teaching me, and..." argh!
</font>[/quote]Yep Ant... & if anyone is really stressed about learning the wedge in the first place... well I learnt the snowplough.... OOOOPS - guess that means I'm a terminal intermediate huh....

& Wonderboy instructor uses snowplough wedels & power ploughs on his higher level skiers... he has no qualms at all about heading back to that stuff - even with his racers it seems.... He feels that being asked to perform high level performance of 'lower level' skiing at slow speed shows up the flaws in technique well
post #85 of 89
I really don't have any anomosity towards HH. What I find unsettling is that in many instances the wording used by HH has the effect of convincing someone who has skied 47 days on snow that there is really only one way to learn to ski and that all the other total experts from around the globe are to be stood up as examples of what is wrong with ski instruction. That about says my problem in a nutshell. This hurts you, this hurts HH and this hurts us.

In the longrun this has hurt HH as he alienated the very core network of instructors who would have carried the sword.
post #86 of 89
Wonderboy is right. Some Swiss drills are done in a snowplough and they are bloody hard, and they are race-based. The one where you jump from one ski to the other, in a snowplough, gets me every time.

Rusty, I think I had your lady's twin the other week! She would head into the turn, pull the inside heel in and clack-spin! What amazed me was we actually fixed it.
I'm amazed these people actually stick with skiing, when it's such a struggle and hope each turn they make.

Then again, I did, and it was.

Pierre, a while back I was all set to have a look at HH and his stuff. Now I am totally not interested and wouldn't waste my time. Marketing is marketing.
post #87 of 89
ant said:
Quote:
Pierre, a while back I was all set to have a look at HH and his stuff. Now I am totally not interested and wouldn't waste my time. Marketing is marketing.
Do not form a prejudicial opinion and shut yourself off from Harb's work. Much of it is very thought provoking and will only enrich you're mind even more. Just ignore the obvious hype.
post #88 of 89
If it requires hype, it's obviously in need of it, and therefore not worth any attention.
post #89 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by ssh:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hunter.:
I have yet to find a quality ski instruction video, I am after a video that illustrates the Ron Le Master style of teaching, not Harold Harb.

1. Do the instructors here work with a video of this style and is it available ?
Not as far as I know. I do know that Ron has not produced a video, and the book that had been scheduled for availability this fall ran into some challenges due to the publisher.

Quote:

2.Is Ron Lemaster's book still the current text for instructors ?
Ron's book is not officially a text for instructors, although it is recommended reading for PSIA. The official texts are the Alpine Technical Manual and the Core Concepts Manual. Neither of these deals much with high-level skiing specifically, but rather with the universal concepts for skiing, learning, and teaching. There is a companion Alpine Technical Video that focuses primarily on the early-stage learning progression (both direct to parallel and wedge to parallel). PSIA-RM also has a DVD (produced by our own Bob Barnes) that demonstrates the required maneuvers for each level of instructor, PSIA I through III. This is available on the PSIA-RM site.

Quote:
3. Does he post here at all ?
Not that I have ever seen. He's likely too busy writing code for the CU Physics department and traveling the world filming the best WC skiers and giving clinics at the top ski schools. I believe that he remains an adjunct trainer for the Vail Ski School, but Ric would know better than I, certainly.

Don't underestimate Ron's analysis. He is a very, very smart guy with an analytic, scientific approach to everything. I was honored to work with him some years ago in non-ski-related business, and he's one of the most thorough people I have ever met. </font>[/quote]Oh and I forgot thanks for the direct answers ssh [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]
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