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post #31 of 89
They are all little SCSA clones...it's kinda like minime

http://www.realskiers.com/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php?t=120

John you be sure to put the best foot forward here for HH because he sure won't come over here and do it himself!
post #32 of 89
Thanks, Rusty. Clearly, this is why he's not reading the other threads. He's already made up his mind. : sigh
post #33 of 89
John,

Welcome to EpicSki!

I suspect this is a troll as well, but on the chance it is not....

Whether intentional or not, you have struck a chord of historical proportions with:

Quote:
Originally posted by John Mason:
...I'm still a very new skier but I am better than about 97 percent of the skiers I see on the slopes.
I suspect the vast experience that supports this notion may be a contributing factor as well!

Quote:
Originally posted by John Mason:
...I'm a relative newcommer to skiing. I have skied 47 days in my first year (which just ended).
Ssh has offered up some links to threads where you can find your answer and for kicks here are a few more:

Lightening

Pointing & Tipping

Quote:
Originally posted by John Mason:
What is the best way to turn a ski?
To answer your question directly: There is no ONE best way to turn a ski!

I think this has been stated best by Bob Barnes numerous times: "Intent dictates technique."

I hope you enjoyed your first year skiing!

Chris
post #34 of 89
I don't think that John is SCSA. I think SCSA would understand more of what I am saying. He also used the term dowhill ski instead of stance ski. SCSA would not say that. The 97% thing could be something thats bandied about a lot in Haralds circle and not something unique to SCSA. [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #35 of 89
[ March 08, 2004, 02:41 AM: Message edited by: John Mason ]
post #36 of 89
Quote:
Originally posted by Rusty Guy:
They are all little SCSA clones...it's kinda like minime

http://www.realskiers.com/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php?t=120

John you be sure to put the best foot forward here for HH because he sure won't come over here and do it himself!
Haha, good catch Rusty!
post #37 of 89
It's no troll. The guy is over at the PMTS site extolling what he did here. He also had the following discussion about the "super phantom" move and "someone" told him this will unlearn stemming

JOHN IT WILL ALSO MAKE YOU SKID TURNS ON YOUR $1200.00 VOLKLS FOR THE REST OF YOUR NATURAL BORN DAYS


Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 12
Location: Lafayette, Indiana, USA
Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 9:45 pm Post subject: Try the drill in a traverse first

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

rather than try the super phantom right off, what we did in camp (and I'm not actually sure what the strict definition of super phantom is) was as follows:

1. do a traverse on the little toe edge of the upper ski. Make sure you can confortably do this in both directions. This will give you the feel for the rather unnatural (at first) sensation of having all your weight on the uphill ski on the little toe edge. Once you can do this and know what this feels like then:

2. While doing this traverse, tip the in air (you can brush the tip if you'd like) downhill (future inside ski) in the phantom move. Your uphill (future outside stance ski) will flatten and the turn will develop.

This drill is used to unlearn stem entry's to turns. This is where most people are taught to turn by pressing the big toe of their uphill ski. By doing this drill you will unlearn the inefficient steering motions of your uphill ski to initiate turns that you may have been taught at some time and will learn to trust that the free ski movement is all that is needed to easily turn the skis.

If any of this drill is dificult in either direction, this may indicate an alignment issue. In may case I could do this drill one direction easy but the other direction my big toe would engage to soon. My alignment was off, once corrected both directions are easy (and fun!).

Hope that helps. I'm still a newbie on all this, but if I was self coaching that is what I would tell myself.
post #38 of 89
John, it would have seemed that you were more honestly interested if you had responded to the efforts that some of us made to answer your question by referring you to other threads on this site that had already hashed it out. It seemed to me that you were avoiding those and asking us to recreate them here for you.

Once you check those threads, feel free to post in them to further the discussion (it's about time some of those came back to the top, anyway!). Please understand that many of us are not tied to any one way of doing things, but that someone flying in here claiming that PMTS is The Way and complaining about a single skill taught in a very early lesson can sound more like a troll than anything else. It has certain been so in the past.
post #39 of 89
John Mason what is unfortunate is that way to many instructors out there do not know good skiing themselves and end up passing it on. There are many poor instructors teaching beginners to twist the outside ski. You will notice that these same instructors ski that way in quasi parallel turns. Most are brand new or have not bothered to learn anything about PSIA and the ATS methods. PSIA is still all to happy to collect money endorse ski schools who offer little training.

I don't know the situation at Breck so I can't say what they do.
post #40 of 89
[ March 08, 2004, 02:42 AM: Message edited by: John Mason ]
post #41 of 89
Keep in mind that stemming is naturally learned and does not have to be taught at all. Most stemers learned to stem from lack of lessons. Stemming is walking in the middle of you're turn.
post #42 of 89
John if you aren't being taught to skid why did you just write this post at realskiers?

"Any comments on my understanding of this technical point are appreciated. My observation is that strong tipping creates strong rotation such that the ski's will ski a much shorter radius than their natural carving turn radius. (Today I was sking short little linked phantom turns on a dime on a 5 foot wide snow path (as it's melting at Perfect North) where everyone else was wedging to control their speed.)"

That turn on a dime rotation you have experienced and that you have figured out is a little tighter than the turn radius listed on your skis is a skid.

It is because you are standing on one foot and as you describe you are very correct in saying it's an effect.
post #43 of 89
[ March 08, 2004, 02:42 AM: Message edited by: John Mason ]
post #44 of 89
Quote:
Originally posted by John Mason:
Many here say stuff that is totally correct like Bob Barnes that correctly states inside ski tipping causes outside leg femur rotation. I think that may be the key of understanding both views. The problem from what I've seen is when people focus on leg steering primarily rather than inside leg tipping as that creates lots of problems. [/QB]
I wish you could find where Bob said any such thing. I think you are a tad confused. Inside ski tipping.....well causes the ski to be on edge!

There are no bad movements in skiing. There are merely movements. You are getting brainwashed in you early exposure to PMTS. The mere fact that you mentioned 97% caused a whole lot of suspicion and a wide variety of bells and whistles to go off.

Rotation or leg steering is an essential skill. Tipping is a skill. I'm not trying to be rough on you, however, a whole heck of a lot of people when nuts when you pulled one number out of a hat. You probably did more to make a case than you realize my friend.
post #45 of 89
Quote:
Originally posted by John Mason:
This matches my observations. I ski better, yet I'm only a 1 year skier than many I see in ski patrol or instructing.
Here we go again.....it's unreal
post #46 of 89
[ March 08, 2004, 02:42 AM: Message edited by: John Mason ]
post #47 of 89
Is it possible that after enough PMTS lessons, one gets a wallet sized laminated card stating; "You are now better than 97% of all skiers....."?
post #48 of 89
Well John Mason I looked at page 89 in Ron's book. With the old straight skis leg rotation especially in slalom racing was the norm. Notice he said either one or both legs.

The normal today in skiing skidded turns is to steer the inside foot and let the outside foot follow passively. That is the equivalent of tipping the inside ski on edge and passive outside leg femur rotation for carves medium radius turns.

Steering is more prevalent than tipping at low edge angles in tight turns. Tipping is more prevalent in high edge carved turns. Its all a matter of blending tipping and steering on the inside ski according to the dynamics involved in the turn. Its wise to learn both. I am not as adamant on steering as some of the others on this forum are. Just don't have the knee strength for it.
post #49 of 89
[ March 08, 2004, 02:42 AM: Message edited by: John Mason ]
post #50 of 89
[ March 08, 2004, 02:43 AM: Message edited by: John Mason ]
post #51 of 89
John-
Welcome to EpicSki. I apologize for not having added a couple of smirking emoticons to my last post. I did write it somewhat tongue in cheek. You certainly have jumped into this sport in a big way! But even though 47 days gives you some knowledge, there is still so much more out there for you to experience.

I'm not going to wade into the PMTS/PSIA debate- it's been done far too many times. But allow me to state one fact. There are no absolutes in skiing. There is no one person, system, philosophy, nationality, manufacturer, etc that has a lock on what is "right", "correct", "proper". So take EVERYTHING you hear, read, watch, etc, with a grain of salt. I think what most are suggesting here is that you need to be selective/discriminating in who/what you listen to and accept as being correct.

Skiing is an art. Just as with your fine art photography, you have a given set of tools, and a subject. How you choose to use those tools is up to you. I don't know squat about fine photography, but I have accidentally taken a few amazing (by my estimation) photographs. Does that put me in the top 97% of all photographers?

To a learned instr, ski teaching is a craft. It takes years of training to develop an eye and the ability to communicate what it is the instr wants the student to accomplish. But as occurs with many industries, a generous portion of the participants do not remain current with either technologies or techniques. So there are many "pro's" out there who are not giving the customer their full $'s worth. You obviously came across an instr who did not fulfill his obligation to you, the student.

Don't let that prejudice you against all ski pro's. Regardless of the system they might expouse, you may find there are an awful lot of really great pro's out there, willing to help you out.
post #52 of 89
Careful there John Mason you are making some assumptions about what I said. What you are putting in my mouth is steering before edging. That is NOT what I said. Edging is the first movement followed by blending steering or guiding if you prefer.

You will find most of what I type is from the perspective of a weighted release. That is almost entirely what I use in my own skiing and what I tend to teach a lower levels.

When do you dang hoosiers go to bed anyway. It 1:30am. Thain't no corn noise tah keep you up go to bed.
post #53 of 89
[ March 08, 2004, 02:44 AM: Message edited by: John Mason ]
post #54 of 89
In response to Ric's post,

This weekend I got a student that asked me a very "telling" question. "Is what you are teaching me the "current" teaching method?" This student had taken 2 lessons over the past 15 years. My response?

"There is no real "right way" or "one way" to ski. We give you tools to use and hopefully make it more enjoyable and efficient. If any instructor tells you they have the "only way to ski" run the other way and/or ask for your money back. That includes me!" At the end of our lesson, I mentioned that if they continue to pursue skiing and instruction, and someone gives them advice that they feel is in conflict with what I have told them, that they should listen, ask questions and maybe send me an email and we will explore the instructions together. Maybe we will both learn something!

John,

Welcome aboard.
post #55 of 89
[ March 08, 2004, 02:44 AM: Message edited by: John Mason ]
post #56 of 89
John:

Where did Rusty state "leg steering is the primary way to turn the ski's"?

Why are you hung up on the notion that there is "one way" to turn skis?

I don't see where Arc is disagreeing with any one here. He's certainly described effects of different movements. Whether one combination of movements is more or less effective than another depends on what you intend to do - right?

It seems that you have an aversion to steering. Why?

I was watching some WC racing earlier this weekend, and the racers certainly didn't seem to have any problem dialing in A LOT of steering when they needed it!
post #57 of 89
[ March 08, 2004, 02:44 AM: Message edited by: John Mason ]
post #58 of 89
[ March 08, 2004, 02:45 AM: Message edited by: John Mason ]
post #59 of 89
[ March 08, 2004, 02:45 AM: Message edited by: John Mason ]
post #60 of 89
John:

OK, first of all, let's forget the "camp" stuff!! ...who cares! Second, I'm not an instructor (like most that are responding to you here), but just another average skier, so disqualify my opinions as you see fit

After rereading your quote of Arcmeister, I still don't think he stated one as being more or less important than the other. Just my opinion, and hopefully he'll jump in and clarify.

Personally, I don't think one is more or less important. And, I don't think there is one way to turn or ski. Learn it all! Is steering being overemphasized? I don't see it that way. I know that I have been to three EpicSki Academies in the past two years and have worked on a lot of different skills, but the way I blend them is up to me. As Arcmeister described, you get different results depending on how you blend them - and they are all, correct!

As far as your "need to have it logically explained programmers mind": Maybe think of it more along the lines of "If, Elseif, Else" evaluations, where different processes are executed depending on the existing conditions Again, there is no ONE answer!

In regards to what we see in those racers, well, I guess it's a pointless discussion unless we're both watching the same run. Certainly their goal is to carve the cleanest fastest arc...but, that is not always an option.
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