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M.A. by SnoKarver?

post #1 of 23
Thread Starter 
SnoKarver-I found a great deal of what you said about PMTS of interest the other day. I gotta say I found you to be bright and insightful. I would like to hear more about your thoughts concerning PMTS and a link/similarities to french teaching. I thought it was interesting.

I forget where I posted my brief movement analysis of Wacko, but I'd like to hear if you agree with what I said.
post #2 of 23
Sure thing, Rusty...

Your assment is pretty spot on. Wacko "reverts" to the counter-rotated, too much lead in his stance when things get trickier...

And that's when he skids more. He also has a bit of the "slp" the inside ski against the stance skii, to "force" the narrower stance, and does sometimes displace/skid the stance ski a little from that as well.

As far as PSIA "levels", Hes an 8, usually, and a 7 on a bad day. More 8-like then 7-like, since he worked on his releases more... I used to be able to still see the bases of his skis when he started a turn, especially in cahallenging snow/terrain.

In the world of PMTS, alot of attention is paid to figuring out the Single Most Important Movemement, or SMIM. The movement change/addition that will give the student the most sucess in an immediate change in their skiing. Of course most instructors (taht are awake, and care) have been doing
this already.

He rarely does that anymore. This as his SMIM, but now, working on pulling back the inside food, and getting rid of that big lead is his most important change.

I agree about him being a bit to squatty at the release, then he just stays there, low, little or no extension.

He needs to extend into the holes in bumps more, too. Esp. when they get bigger. We'll get back to the extension.

¯¯¯/__ SnoKarver snokarver@excite.com
post #3 of 23

According to the linke Pierre supplied, I'm a 9.

Level 9 definition:
You can ski confidently on any expert terrain and in any conditions. Learn where the locals ski, tactics and strategies for the worst conditions, relaxing while cruising. Black and Double Black Diamond runs.

I agree that my technique isn't where it should be and there's much more to skiing than this rating system. But using this definition, I think, no I'm sure I'm a 9.

According to my rating system of skiers, I'm not a 9. My rating system is that guys like Harald and Plake are 11's. In my rating system, I'm a 7. But in the PSIA rating system, I'm a 9, no doubt.
post #4 of 23
depending on which link you were looking at you would find that the PSIA level info is totally different than the "rate yourself for ski school" level which a lot of us and a lot of the ski schools use. The PSIA levels that the instructors use to rate where their students are is a lot more stringent than the rating you probably looked at. I too can ski everywhere comfortably and according to Aspen's online rate yourself tool I'm a Ski God. (I wish) The last year I had been chatting with the bears here and then I went to Utah for my annual week long trip. I took a private lesson I was just too curious to not ask. My instructor says I'm a level 9 making level 9 movements MOST OF THE TIME. Although I consider myself an expert skier, There's no way I'm going to be content with that.
I have my lapses and sit back, get out of balance and whatever. There's still so much to learn. It's not a matter of "I can ski better than ..." for me it's "How can I get better so I can enjoy this more"

The measure the instructors "rate" by is more along the lines of your movement patterns and how well you maintain these "correct" movement patterns in varied conditions. As well as how well you blend/balance these movements as needed..

The jump from level 6 to 7 is considerable. then to 8 even a bigger jump and then to 9 yet even a bigger jump.

Just food for thought.

Get a video or several pictures (sequence) of yourself skiing and have someone evaluate you. I suspect you will be suprised even looking yourself.
When I see myself ski, and I can stop the action, I am amazed at all the "little things" I see that are holding me back. How those instructors can see that real time is just amazing.

I'm sure if you put the video or pictures up here, the instructors as well as SnoKarver would most likely be willing to point out where you can improve and even give you some exercises to work on if you are willing.

There have been a few people that have done this already.

As far as if you are a "PSIA" level 9, I'm not going to even touch that.

<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by dchan (edited May 20, 2001).]</FONT>
post #5 of 23
dchan good answer. otherwise:

<marquee> <marquee>
post #6 of 23

Lets not get sidetracked. Give me time to go back and read the post. Maybe I interpreted it wrong.

I know that skiing is not about a "rating system" and if you, "...compare yourself to others you'll become bitter and vain".

I know this.

But I'll ask this question. As skiers, how do you all measure our progress? Do you?

And, since I'm training in PMTS, that's really where I need to measure my progress or lack thereof.

The deal was that SnoKarver post his assesment. I accept it. I don't agree with it, and I'll never asked him to change it, but I accept it, vis-a-vis our deal.
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[This message has been edited by SCSA (edited May 21, 2001).]</FONT>
post #7 of 23
Look at the bright side. It's now May 21 and the we're still talking about some pretty good stuff! No?
post #8 of 23

As skiers, we're always hearing, "Oh, he's a level 7". Or, "She's a level 3 instructor".

So maybe it's only natural that we sit back and try to decide where we fit in (as skiers).

Did I get caught up in PSIA "speak"?

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[This message has been edited by SCSA (edited May 21, 2001).]</FONT>
post #9 of 23
Dear SCSA,

The threads Pierre Eh referenced still annoy me. My objection in the initial thread was that I believed some of the PSIA contingent stated that you could not become a “level 9 “ skier without lessons. I objected to that statement and offered the photos as evidence.

I have come to the conclusion that you will not be considered a PSIA 9 unless you have passed the level 3 PSIA exam. To pass the level 3 test you must ski the PSIA way, (reference Pierre’s threads on taking the test, basically he failed because he was not using a short carving ski), and therefor you must study/train/take lessons from PSIA people. IE you can not become a PSIA level 9 skier without PSIA lessons.

You are better off not claiming a PSIA level or sticking with your own rating system, what was it, an SCSA 7?

My advice to you is to not post photos. The conditions, slope angle, etc are difficult to access in a photo, if the quality of the photos is not good, people will see things that are not there, if the sequence, spacing of the photos is not optimal, people will fill in the gaps with what they already think your problem is…….etc etc. The only way to honestly evaluate them/you is to ski with them/you.

Also I have continually jumped on people for making judgements of skiing ability based on posts, “20 yrds of skiing” etc, but I do it too. I have my own vision of your ability. I would not put it at a PSIA level 9. I will agree that you are an SCSA level 7.


harpo (not a PSIA Level 9)

the ocean doesn't want me today
post #10 of 23
As far as instructors I think it's ok for us to try to get the better instructors at a certain point. LVL 3 instructors give us a base known starting level to work from. I know for instance I will probably not be outskiing a level 3 instructor and they would have a certain amount of experience (required time instructing) I probably would not be outskiing most level 2 instructors but I have learned that the movement analysis and trained eye are things that come with the experience. In your case you will get to the point that you need a blue or Black certified PMTS to continue to grow if you decide to stick solely with PMTS.

Good thinking though. we naturally try to quantify where we are. I find that's OK. but as you move farther and farther up the chain you just keep learning that there is so much more. Every time you achieve a breakthrough, someone will raise the bar and give you something else to strive for. This happens enough and you learn it's not about getting better than someone else but achieving more for yourself...
post #11 of 23
Actually, posting pictures is a good idea. However, I would reccommend that you ski on a green slope at a slow speed while someone tapes you. This will show everything about your movement patterens. As opposed to pics of you skiing very difficult terrain, which falls more under the showing off category ( nothing wrong with that, BTW). I wish I had done this with my pics.
post #12 of 23
I liked the thread of your photo sequence. the subject of "right way" to ski and PSIA was brought up there as well as other places. I think the big thing about being a PSIA level9 without formal lessons was pretty well stated. If anyone skied with Harpo, he is in my opinion a very good skier, much more agressive than I am, and very strong. Now if he's making up for efficient skiing with strengh and gusto and is enjoying it. What's the difference if he's a lvl........ He's having fun, enjoying it and sharing his love of the sport with those around him (I had a blast).

If you desire to have your skiing picked apart and have the humbleness to listen and learn, post those pictures/videos. They will give you a starting point but Harpo is correct. the best way is ski with someone who can evaluate your skiing.

BTW PSIA level 9 skiing does not require passing the level 3 cert and can probably be achived without formal lessons but the path to this level of skiing is much faster with them. I think that was the main jist of the thread Harpo is refering to.
post #13 of 23
Folks, PSIA levels are not a handicap like in golf. If a student is in a class and really did all the stuff that was taught well, the instructor would say to him to go practice and the next time he takes a lesson he should go to the sign with the next higher number (7 or whatever).

It is a classification tool and when you go to the number 9, it just means that you are a number 8 who is ready to learn number 9 stuff, and that is endless. If it were a true classification you would not see such a difference in skiing skill between different skiers in different level 9 classes..

Why is anyone so obsessed with how well they ski? The only real objective test in recreational skiing is the NASTAR, where a for-runner has established a time against which you race.

post #14 of 23
I agree with the rating mumbo jumbo.

One thing about PMTS is that there are no ratings. Either you know the movements or you don't. I'm not sure what happens when you get through the course and learn all the movements. Are you done? I don't think so. In any sport there's always more to learn.

But I do know that until you do know the movements, you just keep on practicing.
post #15 of 23
Here's a thought:

From what I read, PSIA has established ratings for skiers and instructors.

Now, I could be opening a can of worms, but I see this as saying "here's our rating system - the rating system". Then, I see all of you talking about, "level 4 this" and "level 9 that". So, does this mean that there's only "one way to ski - the PSIA way"?

If so, what about all those posts where everyone was telling me that there "wasn't just one way to ski"?

Finally, if there is truly more than one way to ski, then doesn't that make this rating system obsolete?
post #16 of 23

No, PSIA does not advocate one way to ski. It is a general guidline for determining how to group people for the sake of lessons.

If PMTS has no way of classifying ability levels, then if you had 28 people show up for lessons, how would you know how to group them?

As a note, when it comes to private lessons, we don't even ask about it, when a student sign up, except to ask them what their goals for the lesson are. That gives a very general idea of ability level, so that we don't put a rookie instructor with a really high-end skier who has had 100 lessons in the last two years.
post #17 of 23
well put JohnH
To give an example.
When I sign up for a lesson I specifically ask for a level 3 cert instructor or higher. If the director asks why I explain what I'm trying to accomplish in a specific lesson and that usually lays the ground work.. If they have an instructor that is not lvl3 but sounds like a good fit, I'll try it. But the SS better know that if I'm not satisfied I will let them know. I don't ever go in saying I'm a level xxx. If I'm not sure what I want in a lesson, I have the instructor look for a weakness I can work on.
One of the worst things that can happen is you are in a class that is not at the same level as you. either way up or down. Spells disaster for you, the rest of your class and the instructor.
post #18 of 23

100 lessons! Wow, that person is spending lots of dough!

I've never taken a group lesson, so I don't know how they group people. What I meant by "no rating system" is that when going through the books and videos, there's really no rating other than results.

In "2", there is the "Undergraduate course".

When they have their camps, it's "Green", "Blue", etc. For me, this makes more sense, since that's how trails are designed.
post #19 of 23
If you consider that you ski with a buddy that is also in instructor, It is almost like getting free lessons. If you get 2 or 3 tips each day you ski with them you can almost consider that a lesson. If you go back to the thread Harpo/photo analysis, it is mentioned about reaching a "level x" no lessons but goes on to mention somewhere that skiing with a buddy or friend that gives you good feedback/tips can be considered informal lessons. I suspect you would qualify as someone that needs more than the "rookie instructor" John is mentioning and even though you have a few privates under your belt you have probably had more "instruction" than the average skier that may boast 20 years of skiing.
post #20 of 23
>>>From what I read, PSIA has established ratings for skiers and instructors.<<<

I thought I spelled it out. The levels for instructors certification, 1,2,3, are like Harb's green, blue, black. They are qualification levels.

And as far as classifying students, were you to come to me and I ski you off for a half dozen turn I would know into what level class to put you, though you never took a PSIA insturctors class or any class for that matter. The numbers for students classification is an internal function of the ski school and is there to keep you out of an inappropriate class , both for your protection and the other folks in that class...

So for Pete's sake what has that to do with "is there only one way to ski, the PSIA way" and >>>Finally, if there is truly more than one way to ski, then doesn't that make this rating system obsolete?<<<?

Every ski school in every country I've skied has a classification system. If you dump that you may find yourself in a class with those villified wedge skiers

post #21 of 23
oh and on the green/blue/black/doubleblack? Does that mean if I want to work on my short turns but need to correct something that will require skiing on blue, I would be placed in the blue camp even though I'm a "black" skier..
If the green/blue/black works for you that's fine. the 1-8 works for me. anything higher than that usually means special clinics or privates any way and if you are taking lessons at that level, you probably are working on something specific so telling the instructor what you are working on will usually preclude any levels you present. They will take you where they think you need work unless you don't check the ego at the door. Then you get into the same situation we got into here before the reformed SCSA. I think I like this paul better than the old paul... Good thread...
post #22 of 23
Wacko,SCSI whatever. Reread the posts by Ott ,Bob, dchan and john. Keep reading till they sink in and then take 2 aspirin and call someone who cares. This is ridiculous. You're attempting to get some statement that there's only one right way to ski.


print that out triple size and post it on the mirror. <FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Tog (edited May 21, 2001).]</FONT>
post #23 of 23

And seriously folks: WOULDN'T IT BE BORING IF THERE WERE?!

BE the skis!
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