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Help with short turns please?

post #1 of 58
Thread Starter 
Can anyone suggest drills that may be able to help with my short turns?

In large radius (GS) style turns I can carve the ski quite strongly and do not have any difficulty in maintaining edge grip even on the hardest snow. However in short radius turns I still skid when the surface is slick. On soft snow the skis sink in and will hold, but in firm conditions it seems to break the edge hold. The conditions in NZ have certainly been “firm” so it’s been good for showing one’s weaknesses.

I find watching video of myself hugely rewarding in seeing my mistakes. A couple of things I’ve noticed about the way I ski is that I tend to be reasonably “static” when it comes to establishing an edge angle. By this I mean that I tend to go from one edge angle straight to the opposite without being “patient” with the turn and gradually establishing the appropriate edge angle. As somebody once said “Never surprise your ski”, well I think mine are in a state of permanent confusion!! I guess this is a result of learning on “old” skis and I sometimes regress back to old habits. Hopefully it will just take time to finally condition out of my system. Again, with larger radius turns this doesn’t seem to be a problem, just when I’m trying to turn really quickly.

The other thing I’ve noticed is that I do not use much knee angulation in turning, most comes from the hips. It’s this latter point that I would like to do some work on. Can anyone suggest drills or things that I may like to think about to improve in this area?

Finally, from the symptom described, is my prognosis accurate or is it likely to come from something else? I had a lesson where I really wanted to work on skiing strongly in icy conditions, yet the instructor’s attitude was that skidding was inevitable and I was fine; having watched plenty of slalom races it’s not so easy for me to accept.

Thanks for your help.

Cheers,

Pete
post #2 of 58
Pete,

What brand, model, and length of skis are you on? Could be the skis are too long and bulky.

Since it sounds like you plan to be working on this on your own, you might take the tactic of pushing until you find your point of failure, backing off a bit, and then pushing again--the idea is to push the point of failure out further with each attempt, failure being when the ski stops behaving as a cutting tool and breaks sideways.

I'd recommend doing sets of "funnels" -- which refers to the shape of a set of turns, from longer- to shorter-radius. Start with a comfortable radius and tighten the radius just a bit with each turn; when you get down to the radius where you are skidding more than carving, lower the task by opening up the turn. Reinforce the good movements at the longer radius for a few and then progressively tighten the radius of the turn.

Your job is to observe what happens at or before the point of failure: focus on balance; timing; intensity; rhythm. Also, when you arrive at the failure point, back off, and open up the turns--you want to reinforce the movements that produce the desired results, not those that produce the opposite.

Theoretically, this regime will push your envelope of effectiveness beyond its present boundaries.

Whoever said you should never surprise your skis coined a brilliant phrase which I plan to borrow. Thanks for the contribution!
post #3 of 58
Pete- A few questions like what type ski are you on? length? What type of short radius turns are you looking to be able to do?

I think your on the right track by some of your comments. The hip should not be active on creating edge angle in short radius turns. You need to creat the angle with the ankle and legs tipping from the socket. The hip should be part of the upperbody in a short turn and quiet. In the longer turn the hip becomes more of the lower body and helps create edge angle so it makes sense you big turns are pretty good. haveing said that I always think in both turns we need to ski the hip into an inside position not just try to put the hip there.

A few drills:

Flat hill wide stance go straight down the hill and just tip the ankles and legs left and right (don't try to turn) just let the ski bite and carve. Change how quickly you tip but only tip do not twist or change weight just tip and let everything else happen. Increase the speed and continue. If you have some snow blades it would be good to try it on those, or rollerblade.

Do crab hop garlands, from a slight wedge hop from edge to edge. Quick hop with no glide ski should bend and rebound as you hop back to the other ski. Let the off ski swing to match. Make sure to hop away from the ski by pushing against a edged ski with the legs. DO NOT hop the ski away from you.

1000 steps: On a flat hill practice steping from the edge ski up the hill in a traverse, then start conecting the traverse into turns, step continuesly.

Hop turns down the fall line.

Pivot slips, learn to seperate the legs from the hips, start to add edge angle and take from pivotslips to scarve short turns, to carved short turns.

Any activity to promote seperation and precise leg steering and smooth edge engagement and release.

Good Luck, Todo
post #4 of 58
That was a great question Pete. I like nolo's advice, it works for me. Although I still have great difficulty carving very short turns on icy snow. That could be a nerve thing, it's a little bit scary, so I tend to use old style "float 'n sting" short turns on harder snow.
Re: watching the racers. You would probably not experience as much skidding if you took the same kind of line as them. They tend to get off their edges just before they would probably break loose. But they are not using their line to slow down or maintain a certain speed, quite the opposite. Also, look at the turns where they are forced to keep the skis turning across the hill. You will see quite a bit of skidding, except among the top few elite racers.
post #5 of 58
Miles has some key advice here:

Quote:
They tend to get off their edges just before they would probably break loose.
Look at timing. An exercise that I learned in 1982 (letting you know that this is an oldy-moldy) that helped me pass short swing in my Level II evam, was the wedge short swing to parallel short swing segue down a moderately steep groomed slope (though this exercise also works to introduce powder--another time...). I liken the action of the skis to the rockers on a rocking chair, from tip to tail. Cut. Cut. Cut. Get the rhythm down, then bring the inside ski into the action. Add a crisp pole touch and voila! Short turns. (Clip off the rockers a bit and up the tempo for short swing.)
post #6 of 58
If we're talking short turns, really short turns, is it really possible to carve them?

I'd say no. Yeah, you're getting some edge, but mostly, I'd call it "skarving."
post #7 of 58
wedge short swing

Wow, you guys will find any excuse to wedge! [img]tongue.gif[/img]
post #8 of 58
I'll bet even Harald uses an advanced wedge to teach certain things from the stability of that platform. Well, maybe not, but most of us do.

It's a handy little tool.
post #9 of 58
Nolo,

Interesting thought. Because HH has come out against the wedge so strongly, except as a lift line manuevering device, there are a lot of useful exercise/drills that he can't use in his teaching without coming across as being a little hypocritical. I don't use the things I am thinking about a lot but I wouldn't want to put them totally out os bounds.

Yd
post #10 of 58
Hey, back on topic, here are some slalom pics.
http://www.ronlemaster.com/slalom1.htm

Look at the Sarah sequence. You could probably ski that line with very little skidding. But would that have you going too fast?
Notice that in the third to last picture, she has to keep turning across the hill to make the next gate, and her skis are starting to skid. She makes a VERY fast edge change with a bit of pivoting thrown in. Could you do that without "surprising" your skis? I couldn't!

A recreational skier would hold onto the turn a bit longer to slow down, and the skis would skid more. No big deal, as long as you are ready for it.
post #11 of 58
I propose a change of vocabulary from carve and skid to cut and smear. There are grades of cutting, from splitting oak to what a plastic surgeon does with his/her scalpel. Depends on the substance being cut, the angle of attack, the cutting tool, and the person wielding it--skill, state of mind, etc. Cutting is an intentional thing we do with our skis.

Smearing is flat going sideways. It can be unintentional or intentional. When intentional, it is done to stop moving so fast.

If we use this sense of "to cut a short turn," SCSA, though the action is scraping the surface to some extent, I'd argue that the skis are still used as a cutting tool, that is, guided intently on a line, and not just clattering across the surface (through inattention or in defense) in a sideways smear, which is akin to the difference between finger painting with your index finger or the whole palm of your hand. ("Pig!" one imagines the snow to say when more crystals than necessary were sacrificed for someone's pleasure...)

I am being clear as mud, I suppose?
post #12 of 58
Quote:
Originally posted by SCSA:
If we're talking short turns, really short turns, is it really possible to carve them?

I'd say no. Yeah, you're getting some edge, but mostly, I'd call it "skarving."
Indeed, unless you are on skiboards, there will be no pure carving of short turns. Skarving is a good way to describe it, but here is the key: the tails have to follow the general path of the tips. In other words no pivoting or pushing out the tails to initiate the turn. I think that this is what nolo was advocating.
post #13 of 58
I'll go with what TomB said.
post #14 of 58
Me too. Thanks for clarifying, Tom.
post #15 of 58
Posted by TomB :
Quote:
In other words no pivoting or pushing out the tails to initiate the turn.
Please clarify the part about "no pivoting " - It seems to me that there must be some pivot involved here to direct the skis into the new steering angle. Often , I will begin a series of short radius turns with " pivot slips" and that helps me get them going , but I'm pretty sure that I continue to pivot, O.K, now I'm confused.... :

[ August 30, 2002, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: snowdancer ]
post #16 of 58
>>>. However in short radius turns I still skid when the surface is slick. On soft snow the skis sink in and will hold, but in firm conditions it seems to break the edge hold.<<<

>>>By this I mean that I tend to go from one edge angle straight to the opposite without being ?patient? with the turn and gradually establishing the appropriate edge angle.<<<

Pete, my two cents worth. You are describing your problem right there. Slick ice has to be skied as if your were skiing on raw eggs without breaking them, what you describe would cramble them.

In order not to skid on ice you must refrain from making any harsh movemnts. Going from one high edge to the other one will cause at least sideways chatter and more often result in either the tail or the tip breaking lose.

To make clean short turns on ice you need far less edge angle than you would surmise, just enough to hold, a very high edge angle tends to shave the ice away since there is not enough down pressure vs. side pressure.

Since you say you can make good short turns on softer snow, my advice would be to pick some ice and start shortswinging with just about twenty degrees of edge angle and slowly increase edge angle to just where they hold.

Instead of jamming the skis, make no suden moves, just roll them on edge using knee and ankle angulation. In short turns, if you involve rotating the hips and rest of your body it will hinder you, in other words, if you move them one way, you will have to move them back to neutral and then the other way, much too much oomph and will again scramble the eggs. Side angulation from the pelvis down will happen but don't do it deliberatly.

Smoothness and tenderness is the secret on ice and NO park'n-ride as you do in your GS turns

On the other hand if you want to emulate those slalom skiers trying to keep up as much speed as possible around poles, the above may not help you much, you are on your own.

......Ott
post #17 of 58
Pete,

You are the same Pete that is "Hooked" on skiing. That means you are motivated to get as much fun out of this sport as you can !

First, and I don't think anyone mentioned it, but if you are going to ski hard pack, boiler plate ice, or be in hard pack and semi-icey conditions, then you need sharp edges. Skiing like you are on "raw eggs" now becomes possible. Lots of good advice in the other posts, as well.

When skiing on ice, the sharper your edges the better, otherwise less is more. Smooth movements engaging as much of your edge as possible is key. Going from one edge to the other needs to be done smoothly and gracefully.

Panic edge sets will only make things worse. You may also have to ski less challenging slopes. An intermediate run that is pure boiler plate, could easily be reclassifed as an expert run, because of the skill level and control you would need to ski it.

Build up your skills for adverse conditions slowly and start on slopes that will allow you to build confidnece. Success breeds success. Failure leads to more failures and frustration. So start at a level that you know you can suceed at.

Finally, if you are skiing the shaped skis, I want suggest that you get Lito Tejada-Flores' book " Breakthrough on the New Skis." It is an easy read, a great reference guide to specific problems, and extremly informative and helpful. In the USA I use amazon.com. This web site has a direct link, and will get some type of consideration if you order in that manner.
post #18 of 58
Thread Starter 
Hey again Wink. No I be the same bloke that's become hooked on racing.

Regarding my skis. I normally ski my Volkl P50 slaloms, certainly in the conditions described. 170 cm length. They are a very hot ski, it's the driver not the ski that's the problem. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Thanks for the advice. I think I'm on the right track, will be back on the ice next week and see how I go.

Cheers,

Pete
post #19 of 58
Pete –

Ice, short turns, and carving are an oxymoron. A very short radius turn carved allowing the skier to feel the edge slice around the turn is difficult to accomplish because by nature the turn is very active and skiers tend to overpower the edge(s) bouncing off the hard snow. As has been mentioned previously the “right” ski for you, sharp edges, and subtlety as you roll your feet from turn to turn is required.

In subtlety think of a sharp knife and a hard counter top in your kitchen; if you hit the knife on the counter top the knife will bounce away. Now if you draw the knife across the counter top it will, assuming a sharp edge, leave a nice long scratch. A skier will determine through practice what turn is right for them based on their experience and of course terrain and snow conditions. The funnel Nolo suggested is a way to not only practice turn size but also to make that determination. It is a very good way to self-practice. Start with turns the size you can shape nice and round and slowly make the shape of the turn smaller – always keeping the shape of the turn round - and smaller, thus the “funnel” effect.

All of the above being said there are a couple other items that may help if some of the others suggested don’t quite bring you to where you want to be. Keep in mind it is hard for us to determine what is hard snow for you and the type equipment you should ski on based on your size, ability etc.

Remember I said a short turn is an active turn from the get go. I will assume you are familiar with skating across the flats. Find a gentle slope you would be comfortable on skating downhill. Use caution please because downhill is quite different when skating than skating across the flats. Start downhill in a slight wedge to give initial control of your speed – always look downhill- and then slowly start to skate in large skate steps. Then as in the funnel turns start skating in smaller and smaller steps until the skating disappears and you are skiing now in a short radius turn. As you fade into the short radius turn STAY AS ACTIVE with your feet and skis as you were during the skating portion. This little exercise will give you the feel of active feet/skis and body angles required in a short turn. It is a VERY active exercise so keep that in mind and judge for yourself if you can be as active as it will require. If you can then make sure you stay active from skate through to the short turns.

Also I find skiers think subtlety and then actually “loosen” the edge. When that happens the ski base goes flat and of course the edge goes along with the base and we have a slide or slippage of the ski. This then builds into; you guessed it, more and more loss of control etc. Subtlety does not mean soft edge it really means soft on to the edge so the edge does not bounce off the counter top. Remember I said draw the knife across the counter top to make a sharp scratch rather than bounce the knife off the edge. Lets equate the draw of a knife on the counter top to our edges. To draw our edges across the hard snow we must actively steer BOTH skis around the turn. This may feel a little different to you but here is want we must do. We release both edges at the very top of the turn – ski tips are actually pointing across the slope and not down the slope- and now we steer the tips, yes you could say guide or slightly push both skis around the turn. You will learn how much subtlety and steering you require as you practice. Start with one turn at a time stopping each time to absorb in your mind and body how it felt. Don’t forget the feel you had when you created body angles skating into a short radius turn. The feel will come back here based on how active you are in the turn. I would recommend starting on a moderate slope and softer snow if available and then go to a moderate slope with a little harder surface. Another words build up to hard snow/ice and steeper slopes. Build up for success. If it isn’t working find another surface on another run and try again. I assure you it will work if you work it! Through practice you will find the subtleties required.

Have a good day! [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #20 of 58
Quote:
Originally posted by snowdancer:
Posted by TomB : </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />In other words no pivoting or pushing out the tails to initiate the turn.
Please clarify the part about "no pivoting " - It seems to me that there must be some pivot involved here to direct the skis into the new steering angle. Often , I will begin a series of short radius turns with " pivot slips" and that helps me get them going , but I'm pretty sure that I continue to pivot, O.K, now I'm confused.... : </font>[/quote]Well yes, some indirect pivot has to be there in very short turns. Perhaps I should have said no gross pivoting or rotation. But the way you describe your initial start (i.e. pivot slips) is definitely gross pivoting. Bye the way, there is nothing wrong with pivoting, only that it is unnecessary. Let the ski share some of the work!

I find pivot slips far more difficult than skarving. It take much more finesse to do pivot slips right.
post #21 of 58
So the pure carve short swing turn on anything longer than a snow blade really is a MYTH ... mmmm …. Lets see we still need some pivot to get "real" skis around the turn mmmmm ..... Maybe it is time to acknowledge that the "new short turn" really is but a delusion UNLESS you follow the “new GLM” doctrine and have a quiver of skis to suit every turn shape.

Pete some good advice from all so far. My 2cents is to work on pressure and timing, feeling the edge bite through the turn, working on getting off a sliding edge earlier and\or work on getting higher edge angles “more spontaneously ” through the lower leg\foot. "Funnels" are a good but go from medium to short, hold the shorts for about 15 turns and then back to medium and repeat. nothing wrong with some "constant beat" music to assist with concentration\feeling as well.

Oz [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #22 of 58
Quote:
So the pure carve short swing turn on anything longer than a snow blade really is a MYTH ... mmmm …. Lets see we still need some pivot to get "real" skis around the turn mmmmm ..... Maybe it is time to acknowledge that the "new short turn" really is but a delusion UNLESS you follow the “new GLM” doctrine and have a quiver of skis to suit every turn shape.
Ozman,

This was a source of much confusion for me last season. I thought I should be able to carve ALL my turns and control ALL my speed with line selection!!! After studying more here and on videos, I realize that skidding/pivoting/steering are still very much OK or even desireable in many situations!!

Of course, I still had to buy some hyper-carvers so I could carve more of the time!
post #23 of 58
Of course, I still had to buy some hyper-carvers so I could carve more of the time![/QB][/quote]

Yeah right and some people will find the slightest excuse for toys!
post #24 of 58
So OZ, would you say that learning to efficiently pivot the skis is still an important thing for intermediate and advanced skiers to learn?
post #25 of 58
MilesB

IMHO pivot\foot steer is a skill that carries through from beginner to advanced. If one cannot actively steer independent the feet then one will never get to ski any "real" terrain or learn to adapt to the changing snow underfoot.

I have been lurking in the short turn discussion and application for a while, just soaking up the mantra and the "new short" turn MYTH is EXPOSED .... UNLESS you have a quiver of skis of course.

Have a look on the latest skis; they all have a note about the "radius of turn" that the ski is designed for. IMHO with this equipment development AND the “pure carve” teaching skills mantra we are seeing GLM being re engineered. Sure we can pure carve in MORE situations on the new skis BUT not all.

I like to teach a range of skills that enable my clients to become versatile skiers and IMHO pivoting\foot steering is a must have skill for all skiers.

What I observed on the weekend was clinicing instructors doing "shortish medium" carve turns on groomed terrain using -170 skis and calling the turns "the new short" turn. They then went off to the "rock garden" with its variable snow and some decent pitch and obstacles and proceeded to do up motion short turns with a little more carve than last year. I also observed much the same during the past US winter.

No wonder many are confused. Some honesty is called for in some of the teaching theory floating around at the moment.

I may of course be wrong !!!!!

Oz [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #26 of 58
Tom sez: The last clause comes into play when, for example, (a) you absolutely must stay in a very narrow corridor because of traffic or large stone walls , (b) when you need to keep your across-the-hill velocity low (for similar reasons),

What I'm getting at is that for the majority of skiers, THAT IS the normal situation. Mostly because of weekend traffic. So I ask: just how useful is a no-pivot turn? Oz really hit the nail on the head with the story of the clinicing instructors.

BTW, being a weekday skier, ALL kinds of turns are useful to me! So there. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
post #27 of 58
>...IMHO pivot\foot steer is a skill that carries through from beginner to advanced. ... and IMHO pivoting\foot steering is a must-have skill for all skiers. ...

Oz, I don't think you will find disagreement with your statement from anyone.
-----------

>...If one cannot actively steer independent the feet then one will never get to ski any "real" terrain or learn to adapt to the changing snow underfoot...

True. However, there is an equally important flip side to your statement. Namely, unless you are equally proficient at carving, you are going to limit your skiing in other ways. For example, there are snow conditions (eg, heavy /thick) in which large amounts of active rotary input by itself is useless unless you help it along with a lot of energy-inefficient unweighting moves. In other words, you better have something else besides coarse rotary in your bag of tricks. In such conditions, being equally comfortable with skiing using just fine rotary input and as little sideways motion of the ski as possible (ie, as close to a pure carve) then becomes the most appropriate way to efficient and enjoyable skiing.

My personal feeling is that both sets of skills are critical to anyone aspiring to become an advanced skier.

Don't forget that Bob Barnes' mantra is not just, "Ski the slow line fast", but is more like (I'm too lazy to try to dig up his exact quote with the search engine broken) "Ski the slowest line that you need to, but do it the fastest you can", AND always ends with the oft-forgotten but critically important phrase that goes something like, "...WHEN YOU CAN". ( I hope I didn't butcher it too badly.)

The last clause comes into play when, for example, (a) you absolutely must stay in a very narrow corridor because of traffic or large stone walls , (b) when you need to keep your across-the-hill velocity low (for similar reasons), (c)when the tightest, most complete turn that you and your equipment prefer to (or can make) doesn't provide enough continuous energy dissipation to keep your overall velocity reasonable, etc.

My personal interpretation of this phrase is that it is NOT an exhortation to ski only in carves, but simply that the best skiers on the mountain tend to use the minimum amount of skidding (ie, lowest steering angles) necessary to get the job done, and so, if you want to ski like them, you should try to do the same by working on technique, strategy / line selection, balance, appropriate equipment, etc.

A couple of months ago there was a large thread on "The Perfect Turn" which went into the above points in much more detail, and might provide interesting reading.

--------------

>...UNLESS you have a quiver of skis of course... Have a look on the latest skis; they all have a note about the "radius of turn" that the ski is designed for. ...

First of all, no skis have a single "radius of turn" that they are designed for. What is printed on them is the geometric sidecut radius. By going from moderate to large edge angles, you can make the theoretical carved turn radius go from a bit smaller than the stated sidecut radius down to considerably smaller values. At the other extreme, namely, at very low edge angles, you may not be executing a theoretically perfect carve (ie, all points along the edge pass by the same point in the snow), but you can be very very close to a perfect carve, and doing so in a turn of considerably longer radius than the geometric sidecut radius. Fortunately, and most significantly, with a just a tad of fine rotary input, the angle between the direction the ski is moving and the direction it is pointing can still be zero. In this quasi-carve mode, snow is still moving lengthwise under your ski, and thus, you can use this method almost interchangeably with a theoretically perfect carve, except (in this case) you are now doing so at such long radii that one might first think a carve was impossible.

Thus, when you say that you need a short sidecut radius ski to execute the shortest radius carved turns at a given edge angle, you are absolutely correct, and someone currently owning only long radius sticks will indeed have to buy shorter radius skis to reap this advantage.

HOWEVER, on deeply sidecut skis, you can make short radii carves AND you can still do the long radius, zero steering angle quasi-carves as described above. In other words, a person with a single pair of deeply sidecut skis can do both long and short radius carves, and hence may not need a quiver (as you claim).

This is the reason behind the surprising versatility of some modern, deeply sidecut skis. Of course, not all such skis will be suitable for all-mountain, all-condition, all-speed use. They need to have enough area to provide adequate flotation in soft snow, they need to be stiffer than one might think so as not to be perturbed by irregularities in junk snow at a given speed, etc. etc., so there are still many choices to make.

Obviously, there will always be turns of such extremely short radius that even the most deeply sidecut, shortest skis can't carve around. However, by going in this direction in your selection of skis, you give yourself a larger operational range and unique flexibility that was hitherto inaccessible to someone on straighter sticks.

Its not that anybody is being dishonest (as you claim in your post), its just that the answer is complicated and doesn't involve simple black and white dictums. It also involves multiple skills, and works best on skis (eg, 160-170 cm 9.12's, HCX's, some Fischer's, etc.) that relatively few people (instructors included) currently have extensive experience on.

Tom /PM

[ September 04, 2002, 08:11 AM: Message edited by: PhysicsMan ]
post #28 of 58
milesb asked the very relevant question, "Just how useful is a no-pivot turn?"

I think the answer is that in some conditions (eg, deep, heavy snow/slop, racing, empty cruising terrain, etc.) its somewhere between utterly essential and simply a hell of a lot of fun.

In other conditions (eg, really crowded trails, lift lines, narrow icy chutes, etc.), its about as useful as ... well, you can fill in something about what comes out of the northern parts of southbound animals. In these cases, the most appropriate "turns" might be pivot slips, jump turns with hard edge sets, or any of a variety of other turn types where you hardly change the average direction your CM is going, but rather, you periodically change the direction your skis are pointing so that you can continuously scrub off speed.

In fact, there is actually a continuous spectrum of turns between these two limiting cases. For want of a better term, I'm just going to lump all of these as "skarved" or "mixed" turns. Some might be turns in which you intentionally ensure that your steering angle is never equal to zero, but you also make sure that it never gets very large, either. You might think of these as "pretty skarves".

A different type of mixed turn might be when much of the turn is spent carving, but periodically, you interrupt this with a short period in which your skis are momentarily at large steering angles (...think old school slalom turns).

These spectrum of mixed skidded - carved turns probably represents one of the most general ways to classify ski turns, and being able to dial in precisely the particular turn on this spectrum that you need at any particular time represents one of the highest goals of skiers.

I would argue that to get to this level, you need to first completely own the techniques needed for each end of this spectrum. Only after this is achieved, can blending and movement along the spectrum be refined.

While the average recreational skier spends most of their time in crowded conditions on groomers, and can (and do) get by with mostly skidded turns, I would still argue that those that want to progress into higher levels of skiing (ie, not just racing) can not get by with just mostly skidded turns, and will need to enlarge their knowledge to include carved turns and, eventually, everything on the skarving spectrum between these two extremes. I think that the debate then becomes how best to prepare particular ski school customers for their likely needs (eg, don't teach dead end moves).

Just my $.02,

Tom / PM

PS (in edit) - fixed a bunch of typos, bad grammar, added a better word here and there...no substantive changes

[ September 04, 2002, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: PhysicsMan ]
post #29 of 58
The kind of turn that I'm talking about is just like oz described, an "old style" slalom turn with less pivoting at the start, and more carving at the end. And you know what? I think that is the most useful turn a skier can know how to do.
I don't know for sure how it fits into the perfect turn/slow line fast thing we've been discussing (My guess is that it does), but it certainly opens up more terrain to average skiers.
This turn used to be what was taught to intermediates to get them to the next level. I know of one well regarded ski school that still does this. Is this a bad idea?

note to Tom: I would not include skiing in the heavy slop here, as those turns generally do not get the skis very far out of the fall line, hence no need to pivot them into the fall line.
Also, watching racing last year, it looks like in slalom and GS, turns made without an initial (even a slight) pivot are very rare. But I agree with everything else you said, I think. :
post #30 of 58
comment from the peanut gallery:

GREAT THREAD, folks!
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