New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Fundamental Movements - Page 2

post #31 of 51
 oops - sorry Bud
Obviously my level of understanding of this is way way below yours.
post #32 of 51
Isnt there a difference between a movement perfored at the wrong time and place and a movement performed in a wrong way?

Like an up extention of the legs at transition. If you want to make a skidded turninitiation and need to unweight then its a valid movement but if you carve then it could be classified as a movement not needed and therefore wrong. Insted of up extending you should be tipping your skis. Still, even if your intent is a skidded turn initiation you could perform the up-extention falcely. Lets say you do it too early or too late or too quick or too slow or too little or too much or you windmill your arms at the same time or you forget your pole plant or you over rotate or you dont rotate at all etc.

IMO, people that talk about right and wrong should be aware of the risk that in 10y many things we do now that we consider right might be wrong. Being to black and white has a tendency of backfiring. Movements are movements and its good to know why and why not we need them and how to properly perform them. Skill is the ability to use the right movements for the task and how to perform it correctly.

 
post #33 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

 Rick,  I am not sure you understand the skills we are talking about (rotary, edging, and pressure control movements) are not one dimensional.  It is not a situation of we either own them or we don't, it is that they exist in every turn, in every skier, all the time, from the very first turn.  Though these skills in a beginner are very unrefined and inaccurate they still exist in some form.  Perhaps as you said, "we can change movements" to improve or refine our skills, but we are not creating "new" skills.

 

They're certainly not one dimensional, Bud.  Take for example, rotary.  It's not a singular skill, it's a basket of skills.  In the active sense you have rotation,,, counter rotation,,, anticipaton,,, pivoting,,, and leg steering.  In the passive category there's an infinite number of rotational states skiers can move in and out of.  All these "skills" are developed on a graduating progression of expanding range and
proficiency, just as you suggest.  I write about this on my website.  Did you know I have a website now, Bud?    Here's an article I wrote about how these skills are progressively developed and refined.   

http://www.yourskicoach.com/YourSkiCoach/Spiral_Learning.html


Quote:
Your description seems to imply that there are many different skills and that forming new movement patterns will form new skills?    

I would state it a bit differently.  Learning different skills requires learning new movement patterns.  A cleanly initiated carved turn requires a different movement pattern than executing an upper body rotation driven pivoted turn initiation.  Both transitions, but vastly different movement patterns, with differing forms of edging skills, rotary skills, flexion/extension skills.  


Quote:
I can have a student balance on their downhill ski and traverse without any further explanation and in order to balance their body will do what it must.  When they have difficulty, I may suggest changes to their body position to help them succeed like "flex your ankle and keep your head over the downhill foot" and with a little practice they will figure it out.  

Yes, the skier's body has to figure it out, but the hints provided by the coach are often of crucial importance in helping them make the discovery.  Different people require different hints.  Expanding the repertoire of ways to help bring the "ah ha" moment is what good coaching is all about.  


Quote:
I don't believe we disagree on the skills concept as a whole just in the explanation.  If I were a new skier and you told me I had to learn many different skills to ski well I may choose an easier sport.  If I were told I needed only to be able to tip, twist, and pressure my skis and continually improve the ability to do this, I would say, "let's get started"!

Again, different people require different approaches.  Some want to stay in the here and now, and would get discouraged to hear the entirety of what's entailed in achieving true expert level skiing.  Others NEED to see the map before they start the journey.   Some want simple instructions, and get overloaded with technical detail.  Others have to understand the technicals of why things work, and why they're doing them, and what purpose it's serving, before they can buy into and devote themselves to the process.  As coaches we need to learn to recognize the different student mentalities, and modify our approach to best suit them.  
post #34 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

Isnt there a difference between a movement perfored at the wrong time and place and a movement performed in a wrong way?

Like an up extention of the legs at transition. If you want to make a skidded turninitiation and need to unweight then its a valid movement but if you carve then it could be classified as a movement not needed and therefore wrong. Insted of up extending you should be tipping your skis. Still, even if your intent is a skidded turn initiation you could perform the up-extention falcely. Lets say you do it too early or too late or too quick or too slow or too little or too much or you windmill your arms at the same time or you forget your pole plant or you over rotate or you dont rotate at all etc.

IMO, people that talk about right and wrong should be aware of the risk that in 10y many things we do now that we consider right might be wrong. Being to black and white has a tendency of backfiring. Movements are movements and its good to know why and why not we need them and how to properly perform them. Skill is the ability to use the right movements for the task and how to perform it correctly.

 

Excellent post, tdk6.
post #35 of 51
Thread Starter 
 Rick,

Again, I believe my initial post here is simple to understand and covers a very wide range of movements.  Calling every different movement pattern a new skill detracts from the simplicity of the skills concept.  

All the movements we make on skis involve some level of proficiency in the skills of rotary, edging, or pressure control.  We both know what good movement patterns are and what less desirable and limiting movement patterns look like.  I look at the ability to turn the feet beneath a stable upper body, the ability to balance on the outside ski, and the skier's stance over their skis and go from there to address issues that detract from good turning.  What framework to you use?
post #36 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

It's a bit funny how complex things can get so quickly. The movements we see get classified into catagories and sub catagories but in the end we are still describing movements. The lack of universal agreement on how many skills classifications exist should tell us that each system views this differently. This also means that even though three coaches from three different systems might use different words to describe what they are seeing, that doesn't mean the movements they described are different.


 

Exactly, JASP.  When it comes right down to it, good skiing is good skiing, and the skills, movements, whatever you want to call them, are the same.  The differences come in how they get grouped and classified by different schools.  We shouldn't get too caught up in knocking opposing systems here.  Time and effort is better served in promoting general understanding of the big picture.  
post #37 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

 Sitting here thinking about how I tend to boil down skiing into simple fundamentals and what areas I continually work on developing and improving no matter what level skier I am working with.  

Skiing is most basically balancing on two planks while sliding down a slope.

PSIA groups under this balance umbrella the skills of Rotary movements, Edging movements, and Pressure Control movements.  No news here, However, how well do I understand these movements and incorporate them in my lessons with the end goal in sight.  How well do I assess my students and identify the key areas of weakness and subsequently my lesson plan?

I find that I look at three primary abilities.  

STANCE:  This incorporates the Pressure Control skill, including fore/aft, left to right, and vertical movements and attitude.  I look at the skier's body part alignment to see where the balance axis passes through their feet and make appropriate adjustments to body position and equipment to optimize this static stance then test dynamically and continually adjust.  I am looking for the skier to remain over the sweet spot of the skis so they can positively affect them fore/aft, left to right, and vertically.  Assuming here that the equipment is properly aligned (ramp, delta, forward lean, binding placement), the skier should be able to crush the tongue of the boot at any time through their turns.  If the hips are too far aft, all leverage is lost to pressure the shovels.  A common problem I see in skiers is where they move too much vertically and not enough laterally with the hips consequently losing the ability to pressure the ski shovels.  

I spend time on a strong neutral traverse position with the uphill half of the body ahead of the downhill half.  The uphill ski tip will be ahead of the downhill tip when our weight is solidly balanced over the downhill ski and it is edged into the snow.  In general the plane created between the ski tips will mirror all the way up our body.  This can be easily checked by using a ski pole to connect the dots, tips, boots, knees, pelvis, shoulders, hands all on the same plane.  From this position I can easily traverse, forward side slip, release my edges to side slip, and most importantly begin a turn.  I practice these movements with students to develop and refine this skill.

THE ABILITY TO BALANCE ON THE INSIDE EDGE OF OUTSIDE SKI:  (Edging) This represents the edging skill and ability to control edge angles and remain in balance.  A skier should be able to comfortably lift the inside ski off the snow at just about any point in a turn without any gross movements of the upper body.  Along with pressure control skills to adjust left to right balance, a skier must be able to balance on the ski edges, more specifically the outside ski of the turn.  Many skiers tend to tip inside whether this occurs because of fear, poor rotary skills, or poor stance, or simply a lack of understanding.  I work on this in conjunction with stance to insure the skier can balance first statically on the downhill ski then in a traverse then in a fan progression, then in linked turns.  I look specifically for where the hips and head are over the skis.  The only way a skier can traverse balanced over the downhill ski is with a good body position so this fundamental is intrinsically linked to stance.  As the skier progresses I focus more on creating "grippy" turns rather than "slippy" turns where the edge angle is increased to begin bending the skis toward a more carved turn.

THE ABILITY TO TURN THE FEET BENEATH A STABLE UPPER BODY:   This represents the desired turning power origin which focuses on the lower leg steering or the femurs rotation beneath a stable pelvis. While many neophyte skiers tend to use upper body rotation (hips and/or shoulders) to turn their skis, I focus early on changing this turning power to the feet and lower legs.  It is key to nurture fulcrum type turning rather than rotary push off type turns to create offensive turning where both tips turn down the hill.  Pivot slips are the ultimate exercise for developing and refining this skill. In order to do perfect pivot slips one must have a strong command of the rotary skill.   If this skill is underdeveloped or ignored altogether the skier will experience tactical problems in a variety of conditions.  One of my favorite exercises for testing this ability is to begin a run with pivot slips then progressively change the skill blend by slowly increasing the edge angles and reducing the rotary input until we are making arc to arc carved turns at the end of the run.  This task will highlight the ability to effectively blend all the skills efficiently and also highlights weaknesses in the skier's movement pool.


Does this make sense to others? or do other instructors have a framework or assessment method they think is better?

To refocus on the purpose of this thread..... What do you look for or at in assessing a skier's abilities and develop a lesson plan?
post #38 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post




Exactly, JASP.  When it comes right down to it, good skiing is good skiing, and the skills, movements, whatever you want to call them, are the same.  The differences come in how they get grouped and classified by different schools.  We shouldn't get too caught up in knocking opposing systems here.  Time and effort is better served in promoting general understanding of the big picture.  




Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post




To refocus on the purpose of this thread..... What do you look for or at in assessing a skier's abilities and develop a lesson plan?

I actually think this is all related:

When assessing students I look for skills.  And to help them- I develop their skills.  Period.  In my world only 5 skills exist. 

The reason I do this is because over the years, I have noticed  students find movements easy to get.  After a lifetime of living, we can all move in a reasonably co-ordinated manner.  For example I show people how to flex and extend.  Standing still, about 80% of my students get it right in under 30 seconds.  98% of my students get it right in under 2 minutes.  Same is true for most other core skiing movments ie rotating femurs in the hip socket (pivoting), angulation, inclination, ILE, OLR, etc, etc.

However as soon as we try to ski, it falls apart.  Why?  Because the movement is only a small part of the skill.  The skill also includes the when to move, at what rate to move, and how much to move for any given situation.  Developing that takes skill on the part of the instructor and work for the student. 

Hence I think it is important to understand that movments are only part of the equation.  When assessing students I have found that it is the other stuff that is usually lacking and is the stuff that takes the time to develop.  Hence movements are obviously needed, but in practice very little time is spent talking about or developing them because it isnt necessary, they get them straight away.  Developing the "skill" is where the work is.
post #39 of 51
Thread Starter 
 Thanks for your input Skidude72,  makes good sense.
post #40 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
To refocus on the purpose of this thread..... What do you look for or at in assessing a skier's abilities and develop a lesson plan?

I look for the skiers balancing skills, coordination, athletisism, condition, motivation and most importantly trust, during the first few minutes of my lessons with a simple warm up drill. I have them move arround on skis and perform simple tasks such as leaning forwards and aft, leaning left and right, standing on one foot, touching the tips and tails of skis, stepping sideways, herringboaning, sliding skis forwad and aft, walking while standing still, windmilling the arms and immitating me performing various movements and with kids being playful. There is an incredible ammount of information to be gathered this way.

For instance if a person taking a lesson wants to learn how to make a parallel turn but he cannot balance on one leg and ski I have to consider this when proggressing with my lesson. Same if the person is a 5y old kid and he doesent want to do any of the tasks I ask for. A good instructor is not only good at finding out as much as possible about the student during the first few minutes of a lesson but also knows how to shape and proceede with the lesson and get the job done.
post #41 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

To refocus on the purpose of this thread..... What do you look for or at in assessing a skier's abilities and develop a lesson plan?

I looked at your original framework as a concise and effective technical description.  I like the fact that it was not technique specific.

Some of the comments that followed brought out other very relevant items, such as alignment.  These could simply be added to the list as well, but then there's the risk of complicating a good base model. 

We have an umbrella framework of performance factors called TTPPEE (pronounced like "teepee") that we use in addition to the technical model to cover all bases:

T:  Technical (including technique)
T:  Tactical (context-specific applications of technique)
P:  Physical (strength, mobility, biomechanics)
P:  Psychological (mental focus, visualization, stress management)
E:  Equipment (all the tools of the trade, with their various configuration options)
E:  Environment (weather conditions, playing surface, external influences)

This comes out of NCCP sports theory, and can be applied to any sport.  It is also equally applicable to competitive or recreational participation levels.

Alignment is a good example to work with.  There can be a physical alignment issue (bowlegged), that require equipment adjustments (boot canting), in order to achieve a desired technical outcome (strong clean edging). 
post #42 of 51
I look at what the skis are doing and try to find out what the skier is doing to make that occur. I don't get too worried about where I file my description of the movements. I know that may sound simplistic but if you can tell an accurate story and paint a good verbal picture of what you're observing, filing that information where it belongs is unnecessary. Then again I can file it all very well because I made it a point to learn how to use the classifications as a tool, not as a crutch.
post #43 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

I look at what the skis are doing and try to find out what the skier is doing to make that occur. I don't get too worried about where I file my description of the movements. I know that may sound simplistic but if you can tell an accurate story and paint a good verbal picture of what you're observing, filing that information where it belongs is unnecessary. Then again I can file it all very well because I made it a point to learn how to use the classifications as a tool, not as a crutch.

This statement needs no comment by me.
post #44 of 51
 Plenty of good ideas - thanks everybody!

I don;t mean to shorten the debate here so feel free to go on..but...could we look at the other half of Bud's question?  "What do you look for or at in assessing a skier's abilities and develop a lesson plan?"

And develop a lesson plan...?
What comes to mind is...do you assess if the skill that is the most deficient is so deficient that it's not functional to develop other skills? Say someone far in the back seat, or someone who can't balance on the inside edge of the outside ski? Can you blend in corrective moves while developing?
post #45 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by snownat View Post

 

And develop a lesson plan...?
What comes to mind is...do you assess if the skill that is the most deficient is so deficient that it's not functional to develop other skills? Say someone far in the back seat, or someone who can't balance on the inside edge of the outside ski? Can you blend in corrective moves while developing?
 

There is a common thread in your question and it's balance. If we can't get them in balance through all phases of the turn then they will be blocked from advancing. Once they are balanced then their progress can be swift. It sounds simple but really isn't because many factors can affect balance such as alignment, physical makeup and muscle memory of inefficient movements.

I start almost all of my lessons with a little stance and balance work to get them something to think about on their own and then I try to identify what basic needs they have that would improve their skiing the most.  Once we get them moving in balance other drills to help them understand new or better concepts for them real , lasting improvement  becomes attainable.

In the mind of the instructor we make that lesson plan as we watch them take their first move off of the lift and down a warm-up run ,Which for them is a warm-up but for us is a chance to watch those skis, stance and balance and come up with a good plan to help them develop better movement

post #46 of 51
MA  and lesson planning are important but to be honest volumes have already been written and discussed here at Epic.
Which is why I keep trying to veer away from all the "if you see this, do that" kind of thinking. But to answer your questions Snownat, the answers are inside your questions.
  1. If the student exhibits a profound enough lack of skill in any one area, and that lack of skill inhibits their ability to progress any further, you would need to address that before turning your focus towards any other issues. So yes is the answer here.
  2. This isn't really a question as much as a description of two situations. Care to re-phrase this as a question?
  3. While this is also an incomplete question, I am going to guess here that what your asking is for all of us to address the idea of corrective movements and how they relate to the "isolate and develop phase of a lesson". Let's start out with the idea that an effective "Stance" and good "Balance" during every part of a turn are the conerstone of good skiing. Without them we are at best struggling to remain standing on the skis as they slide across the snow. So even though we may use the focus on a specific skill, it needs to be seen as a framework for exploring that skill while simultaneously working on better balance and a more effective stance. I cannot stress this point enough, choose activities relevent to one skill if you want but realize that better balance and a more effective stance will occur as a byproduct of working on that skill. 

Edited by justanotherskipro - 4/18/10 at 12:17pm
post #47 of 51
Thanks JASP,

So, first let me say...great clinic today with Bud on boot alignment. A real eye opener.  We got to ski on skis that were set such that we would have the possibility to feel and see what overcanted was, what undercanted was, what a toe lift felt like what a heel lift felt like, what the bindings mounted forward or backwards felt like. Traverses are a great drill. The most impressive for me was the undercanted or overcanted...so I am a little less in the fog.

2. Say someone far in the back seat, or someone who can't balance on the inside edge of the outside ski?
How do you go about guiding through a lesson someone who wants to learn to ski parallel but is in the back seat? 

3. Can you blend in corrective moves while developing?
"I cannot stress this point enough, choose activities relevent to one skill if you want but realize that better balance and a more effective stance will occur as a byproduct of working on that skill. "
So if I choose to develop a specific skill such as edge, can I be more effective if I also ask the student to hold their poles in front of them (which may help with the aft balance issue as well)?
post #48 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by snownat View Post

Thanks JASP,

So, first let me say...great clinic today with Bud on boot alignment. A real eye opener.  We got to ski on skis that were set such that we would have the possibility to feel and see what overcanted was, what undercanted was, what a toe lift felt like what a heel lift felt like, what the bindings mounted forward or backwards felt like. Traverses are a great drill. The most impressive for me was the undercanted or overcanted...so I am a little less in the fog.

2. Say someone far in the back seat, or someone who can't balance on the inside edge of the outside ski?
How do you go about guiding through a lesson someone who wants to learn to ski parallel but is in the back seat?  Have them experience different balance states all through the turn leading them to expereince being in centered balance in each phase of the turn while having the options available to them to make use of timely shifting of balance states

3. Can you blend in corrective moves while developing?
"I cannot stress this point enough, choose activities relevent to one skill if you want but realize that better balance and a more effective stance will occur as a byproduct of working on that skill. " I find this backwards. A byproduct of effective balance will be better opportunities to use all skills
So if I choose to develop a specific skill such as edge, can I be more effective if I also ask the student to hold their poles in front of them (which may help with the aft balance issue as well)? Aft/fore balance is best developed in the ankles and to use higher parts to aid in that balance

 
post #49 of 51
Gary's answers are pretty good here. I'd add that all parts of the body participate in balancing activities. Ski it Snownat! What alternative could you incorporate to produce better balance. If the arms are down and back, getting them forward makes sense but the arm forward advice is treating a symptom, and not addressing the deeper problem.
post #50 of 51
 got it! very usefull.  I'll let you know hoe my teach exam goes! Today and tomorrow at Squaw
post #51 of 51
Thread Starter 
 Snownat,  It was a pleasure meeting and skiing with you at convention yesterday!  Good luck the next couple days on your teaching test!  Hope you gained a better understanding how fore/aft balance is affected by ski/boot set-up during my clinic!  

As you have noticed, where our equipment determines how we stand over our skis directly helps or hinders our stance and balance.  Getting it right makes all the difference!  Sometimes it is simply technique and sometimes it is equipment misalignments, it is our responsibility as instructors and coaches to determine the real cause and address it appropriately!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching