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Short carved turns MA

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 
I havent posted any video of me skiing for MA in a long time. I have no video of me from this year so I have to stick to one from last year that I havent posted yet. I was trying to demo how to carve short turns on a very flat part of a hill. Leaving parallel sharp RR-trax behind me. Did I succeed? Not really since my inside ski steers at times but thats one issue I was working on. I also wanted to keep all the movements in my legs and my upper body stable and calm. And all the usual: outside ski pressure, inside ski tipping, parallel shins, pole plant, forward balance, angulation, anticipation, counter upper lower body separation, levelled shoulders etc. My stance is fearly wide but I wanted to contrast having my skis close together. Any comment much appreciated.

post #2 of 21
 Nice RR track turns TD, now let's see you turn your skis! 
post #3 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

...I was trying to demo how to carve short turns on a very flat part of a hill. Leaving parallel sharp RR-trax behind me. Did I succeed? Not really since my inside ski steers at times but thats one issue I was working on. I also wanted to keep all the movements in my legs and my upper body stable and calm. And all the usual: outside ski pressure, inside ski tipping, parallel shins, pole plant, forward balance, angulation, anticipation, counter upper lower body separation, levelled shoulders etc. My stance is fearly wide but I wanted to contrast having my skis close together.

Any time you preface an MA with that much information on what you were trying to do you're probably not going to receive a lot of feedback - especially when you reference what might be pointed out as areas that you could improve as things you were trying to do. The first thing that I would have mentioned (the unnaturally wide stance) you already pointed out as something you were trying to do. My question is why?

Aside from the stance needing to be narrowed to something more suitable to your build; your inside ski tipping is weak, as is your outside ski pressure in a few of the turns. It seems you are falling inside of a few of the turns having never really established real balance with your outside ski. You also look like you're on your heels - like you started from barely neutral and never came any more forward for any of the 15 turns.

If you were to do this run over again the mental cues I would suggest would be [other than getting your stance back to normal - which I think may have caused a lot of what happened in your run]: Start in an extremely forward position before you even start sliding, and try to maintain that position over your skis for every turn (think about what movements you'll have to make to maintain that position over the skis as you start to accelerate). Establish your balance early on a tipped outside ski and take note of what your body has to do in order to balance on that edge without using the inside ski for much support. Once you start to move, exaggerate your inside ski tipping and never stop tipping the inside ski until you release, to be sure you are using it as much as you could be.
post #4 of 21
 Helluva, that is a very good accurate MA!

I see simply being taken for a ride by the ski rather than pressuring the shovels and bending it early.  It looks like a basic railroad track task rather than any active turning.  I would suggest leading the edge change with the inside ski tipping first and keeping it tucked back to maintain tip pressure.

I would like to see TDK6 making short radius turns of the reaching variety on a 16+ meter radius ski to demonstrate some skills besides tipping.
post #5 of 21
Thread Starter 
Thanks Greg.

Getting forwards enough is a big problem for me but how exactly do you suggest I get more forwards? More delta angle? More forward lean in boots? More forwards flex in boots? More shin pressure? More ancle flex? More hips forwards? More bending at the waist? More arms forwards? More curving of the back? I think that Im much more forward now than I was 3y ago.

I have been skiing with my feet very close all my life and thats why I have been trying to widen my stance when I practise because when I ski default my stance is very close. But maybe I need to just let go of the wider stance even for drills. The stance width is offcourse coupled to many things. Do you think closing my stance will help me with my weeker inside half? And do you think it will help me with my week inside ski tipping? And are those two the same thing? Take a look at next video from this year were I walk back up the slope to film my own tracks. I think its very interesting to see that turning right both skis carve but turning left my inside ski skidds. You can see the same thing happenin in the original video as I pass the camera in slowmotion.

post #6 of 21
Thread Starter 
Riihi002.jpg

Here is a photosequence from this year. In the photos I have new boots with one rim of duct tape under my BTE.
post #7 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

 Helluva, that is a very good accurate MA!

I see simply being taken for a ride by the ski rather than pressuring the shovels and bending it early.  It looks like a basic railroad track task rather than any active turning.  I would suggest leading the edge change with the inside ski tipping first and keeping it tucked back to maintain tip pressure.

I would like to see TDK6 making short radius turns of the reaching variety on a 16+ meter radius ski to demonstrate some skills besides tipping.
 

Short radius reaching turns with GS skis? What skills are you hoping to find?  
post #8 of 21
 That sequence looks nice!  Those are gs skis?...  Don't doubt you have skills amigo!  Just am not a fan of people making RR track turns and calling them skillfully executed turns.  How come we never see you running gates in your posts?  Come on let's see some gate bashing brother!!

If I may answer your question to Helluva before he chimes in here....  Provided your set up is close for proper alignment the idea of carrying the hips a bit more forward as a neutral stance helps keep you in a position of power, meaning you can crush the tongue of your boot whenever you want whereas, if your neutral stance is a bit aft with your hips, any effort to flex the boot tongue will move your hips more aft rather than flex your boot tongues.  Of course, these movements drastically affect where the pressure is on your skis.  Another thought when flexing is to move the hips more laterally than vertically which drops your bum over your tails.  But then you probably already know all this. FWIW.

just noticed something in your video..... Your ski poles look really long??  Ever try shorter poles?
Edited by bud heishman - 4/7/10 at 2:38pm
post #9 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

Thanks Greg.

Getting forwards enough is a big problem for me but how exactly do you suggest I get more forwards? More delta angle? More forward lean in boots? More forwards flex in boots? More shin pressure? More ancle flex? More hips forwards? More bending at the waist? More arms forwards? More curving of the back? I think that Im much more forward now than I was 3y ago.

I have been skiing with my feet very close all my life and thats why I have been trying to widen my stance when I practise because when I ski default my stance is very close. But maybe I need to just let go of the wider stance even for drills. The stance width is offcourse coupled to many things. Do you think closing my stance will help me with my weeker inside half? And do you think it will help me with my week inside ski tipping? And are those two the same thing? Take a look at next video from this year were I walk back up the slope to film my own tracks. I think its very interesting to see that turning right both skis carve but turning left my inside ski skidds. You can see the same thing happenin in the original video as I pass the camera in slowmotion.

Getting forward can be really tough without being there in person. For me I had to add a ton of toe lift to my setup, but I have much shorter legs than you. Someone Of your size may need more forward lean or cuff angle to make it happen. Without seeing the results in person, the best you might be able to do it trial and error and then view video of the results (or have someone else view it). Bud gave you a really good picture below of what proper boot setup can do for you and what improper setup will do to you. As you change your boot setup you may also be forced to change your mounting position on your skis. If you take on more forward lean/delta/zeppa, you may find yourself moving back on the ski to stay over the sweet spot.

Honestly, I don't think I've ever considered your stance too narrow (unless it was so narrow that it was prohibiting foot movement). You look like a tall, thin guy, so I wouldn't expect that your stance would look extremely wide. I think you should just let it be where it wants to be naturally and not try to make it narrow or wide. Manipulating your stance width is the first step to putting yourself out of balance. I think that fixing your stance and letting it be what it needs to be is the definite first step to correcting your inside half, ski tipping, and lateral balance (as shown in your tracks). I think I also mentioned way back when you originally posted your ski tracks thread, that your alignment still looked soft (too far inside). When changing your lateral alignment it will feel uncomfortable at first - but stick with it for several days before changing back. FWIW, your left leg looks worse than your right, but both seem to be off still.

For forward balance drills - [assuming correct setup] - try standing stationary as if you're about to start sliding (somewhat athletic, but still standing tall) and push your feet behind you to create some ankle flex. See if you're able to maintain this once you start sliding. In my first post I suggested that you think about what you'll have to do to maintain this. Your answer will be somewhere in the realm of holding the feet back, or pulling the feet back if you let them run in front of you, etc. They key however will be to start with and maintain a hips forward position over the skis - this is not easy (trust me). If you have to move out of this position in order to make your turns [make the skis work] it is a sign that your boot setup or mounting point are not dialed in properly and is not allowing you to stand over the sweet spot of the ski in a hips forward balanced position.

See Bud's comments below:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

If I may answer your question to Helluva before he chimes in here....  Provided your set up is close for proper alignment the idea of carrying the hips a bit more forward as a neutral stance helps keep you in a position of power, meaning you can crush the tongue of your boot whenever you want whereas, if your neutral stance is a bit aft with your hips, any effort to flex the boot tongue will move your hips more aft rather than flex your boot tongues.  Of course, these movements drastically affect where the pressure is on your skis.  Another thought when flexing is to move the hips more laterally than vertically which drops your bum over your tails. 
post #10 of 21
Thread Starter 
Bud, those are SL skis. Yes, I have in fact shortened the poles for SL quite a bit. In the photo sequence you can see me with shorter poles. Here is a video of me in the gates also from last year with long poles.

post #11 of 21
 TDK6,

I see what Helluva is saying about your lateral canting and agree!  You are just going to have to belly up for a plane ticket and come ski America with us!!  I would be happy to comp you on an alignment session and be honored to ski with you here in Tahoe or one of the ESA events! 
post #12 of 21
Thread Starter 
Thanks Greg and Bud for your input on canting and forward stance. Next year I will sertainly continue working with my forward stance. Especially at the end of the turn and in the transition. I have notissed that I some times block the gates upwards insted of forwards. Do you have any opinion on this stance:

Forward stance 001.jpg

Canting issue. My legs are very straight and I have no stance issues according to so called experts on feet. I took part in a test where 100 people were tested for foot print and I had a perfect print together with only one other person in the test. However, inspired by input here and elsewhere on the net I started to experiment with canting. I was up to 2deg on both feet but that seemed to be way too much so I ended up with 1deg on both feet. However, even though my club racing ranking whent up, at bigger events with FIS prepared and approved racing courses I was struggling and wiping out. My ranking was close to the bottom and even 70y old guys topped my time. I did not give up but my ranking did not improve. This year I then dropped my canting back to close to cero by adding two layers of duct tape under my LTE and all of a sudden I was able to ski the racing tracks again. Especially the GS tracks. Freeskiing on softer snow became more difficult but on the racing track my ranking whent straight up to the podium. Suddenly the ride was much smoother and I could hold a carve much better. Before, my skis were too aggressive. Way too much fire power for me. Just a little tipping and off they whent. And I was left standing.

Talked to some WC skiers about this issue and they told me how they ended up with the canting they were using and that kind of made me suspect that I was over canted. I got new boots mid season and naturally they had cero canting. I was surpriced at how well my boots skied with cero canting but wanted to be sure so during a training session I added one stripe of duct tape under the BTE and it worked wonderfully while free skiing (the photo montage in previous postings) but on the icy racing track skiing became totally impossible. Incredible, only one stripe of gorilla duct tape. So I took the tape off and I was able to ski again. It was a huzzle but it was worth it. My new boots are also a bit shorter so they ski like a smaller boot. Very nice indeed. Very responsive and qick.

Does any of this make any sence or am I just on a trip?
post #13 of 21
Was your problem that the skis edge-locked too early?
post #14 of 21
 boot sole angle is only one of three parameters on the lateral plane that affect edging.  You may have some forefoot varus that causes the undercanted look? There may be an issue with the cuff as well?  Difficult to say from here.

Can't tell much from one still photo above regarding fore/aft stance.
post #15 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

I got new boots mid season and naturally they had cero canting. I was surpriced at how well my boots skied with cero canting but wanted to be sure so during a training session I added one stripe of duct tape under the BTE and it worked wonderfully while free skiing (the photo montage in previous postings) but on the icy racing track skiing became totally impossible. Incredible, only one stripe of gorilla duct tape. So I took the tape off and I was able to ski again...

Does any of this make any sence or am I just on a trip?

Don't forget one thing - you feet and legs may not react the same while moving as they do while standing stationary. This is why the best boot fitters do in-shop AND on-snow work. There is also a certain amount of trial and error as well as adjusting that needs to be done when changing your setup.

Your reaction to increased lateral canting is not shocking. When I went from flat to one degree that was my reaction as well. Now I'm up even higher than that. When you first make the change, the skis feel so edgy that you can't ski them. The reason is that you are still tipping your leg to the same point you did without the canting (your balance hasn't adjusted), so you're over-edging the ski. If you give your body time to adjust to using less edge than you had to before, you will likely find yourself much more balanced on your skis. You will of course need more than one run (probably several days on snow). I'd go as far as trying 3-4 layers of duct tape on your left and 2-3 on your right - and you may have to go even further than that, but sometimes small changes are easier to adjust to. The main goal will be to align you so that you are truly balanced with your outside ski as opposed to where you are now - which is always too far inside and out of balance.
post #16 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

 boot sole angle is only one of three parameters on the lateral plane that affect edging.  You may have some forefoot varus that causes the undercanted look? There may be an issue with the cuff as well?  Difficult to say from here.

Can't tell much from one still photo above regarding fore/aft stance.
 

What are the other two parameters? The boots are new this years Nordica Doberman 130 pro with the metal in the foot base. Size uk 10. No cuff adjustments. The guy in the shop that made my boots said that my lower leg points slightly outwards on both legs and that if the cuff could be adjusted he would recomend that or canting could be a thing to consider. I did some measurements myslef with a string and a bolt letting it hang down vertically from the approx middle of my knee and found out that my knee is located pritty much right over the middle of the boot. I dont feel comfortable balancing on one ski sliding forwards if Im canted 1deg but I feel comfortable with no canting.
post #17 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post

Don't forget one thing - you feet and legs may not react the same while moving as they do while standing stationary. This is why the best boot fitters do in-shop AND on-snow work. There is also a certain amount of trial and error as well as adjusting that needs to be done when changing your setup.

Your reaction to increased lateral canting is not shocking. When I went from flat to one degree that was my reaction as well. Now I'm up even higher than that. When you first make the change, the skis feel so edgy that you can't ski them. The reason is that you are still tipping your leg to the same point you did without the canting (your balance hasn't adjusted), so you're over-edging the ski. If you give your body time to adjust to using less edge than you had to before, you will likely find yourself much more balanced on your skis. You will of course need more than one run (probably several days on snow). I'd go as far as trying 3-4 layers of duct tape on your left and 2-3 on your right - and you may have to go even further than that, but sometimes small changes are easier to adjust to. The main goal will be to align you so that you are truly balanced with your outside ski as opposed to where you are now - which is always too far inside and out of balance.

 

Im not saying I woud not benefit from a good bootfitters professional help but for now Im on my own. And Ive done a lot of experimenting. The new boots feel more responsive and much more sencetive to canting than my previous boots. Could it be that they cause my foot to be more canted as they are set up right now straight from the factory? Or that the new metal foot inlay makes all the difference? Max for instance wrote once that he did not cant his new boots staight away when he got new ones.

The thing is that I skied with my old boots that were canted 1deg and felt fine with them after a while in soft conditions and at club racing level. Two seasons to be accurate. I got rid of being overly A-framed and on softer snow I was rippin. And it felt good. However, in racing and on water injected slopes and courses I was unable to ski. I tried all kind of things and nothing worked. The inside of my knee and ligaments and foot to support the knee from below on the inside got very sore and I had serious health issues. So on my third national level seson I now this year whent back to cero in desperation and took a gamble and all of a sudden I was back in business. Everybody allredy had gotten accustomed to me being easy to beat. Guys that could not even ski properly clocked better times. But most of the times I was in the nets. I got the reputation of all or nothing but that was people just being nice because it was comming last or nothing. Kind of a lose lose situation. So its not that I did not try. I wonder if there are others with similair experiences. I see that even wc skiers are being accused of bad alignment. Im very doubtful if that is really so. Or maybe they are badly aligned and tried more canting at some point but could not ski just like me. I find it very hard to believe that world class athletes that have 20 pair of SL skis and boots and a crew trawling with them and working arround the clock would not be set up correctly according to everything considered. Including racing results and athletes own feel of comfort and safety. 

I dont know. I will continue with canting next year but Im very sceptical of what I have been experiencing in the past. And now my old boots are kind of ruined. Cant back off on the canting. Can only increase.

For all you that wonder what we are speaking of here its increasing your inside edges angle to the snow. We are tilting the ski so that the edge under our big toe edge, the inside of the ski, is lower than the little toe edge, the outside of the ski. It has a very dramatic effect on your skiing. Only a couple of layers of duct tape will make a huge difference. Test it yourself. Apply tape on the soles of your shoes for a test and hit the snow. Note that the binding might not work like its supposed to so dont risk anything. I jammed the tape between the plates and some extra plates I have under my bindings. That means some extra work but its all worth a try. Now with less canting I feel that I can go lower into the turns and the ski is carving if I only lay it over enough. With duct tape the ski hooked up earlier and insted of carving they started skidding because I was not inclined enough and my knees were really hurting. It was brutal. Ice was flying and it was carving an arc or flying into the nets. The biggest difference was the surface. The ice was impossible to ski on especially in GS. Free skiing even on very firm and hard snow no problem, race course big problem. And yes, you start with duct tape under your boots and when you feel you have found your canting together with professional assistance you move the canting to your boots or you cant your skis properly with stuff between bindings and plate for instance. Note that Kneissels own race plates are allredy canted. That means that the ski can only be skied on one foot and cannot be swapped to other foot. Makes the tuning business more difficlut.

Greg, why do you think I need more canting on my right foot than on my left?
post #18 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post


Greg, why do you think I need more canting on my right foot than on my left?
 

You need more on the left I think. Reference post #9 of this thread. I'll get to the rest of your post in just a few minutes.
post #19 of 21
 what happened to the video?
post #20 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post

 what happened to the video?

I can see all 3 videos without any problems.

t
post #21 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

What are the other two parameters? The boots are new this years Nordica Doberman 130 pro with the metal in the foot base. Size uk 10. No cuff adjustments. The guy in the shop that made my boots said that my lower leg points slightly outwards on both legs and that if the cuff could be adjusted he would recomend that or canting could be a thing to consider. I did some measurements myslef with a string and a bolt letting it hang down vertically from the approx middle of my knee and found out that my knee is located pritty much right over the middle of the boot. I dont feel comfortable balancing on one ski sliding forwards if Im canted 1deg but I feel comfortable with no canting.

The new EDT does not have the ovaled cuff rivets however, the previous year's Dobie adjustable rivets will pop right in the new boot.  The bad news is, they are not cheap but Nordica sells them a la carte.  Your cuff cant angle is one of the parameters I eluded to as well as your zeppa angle which includes any angle created laterally inside the boot under your foot whether that is the footbed or the zeppa itself.

If you have alot of tibial varum  (lower leg bow) you may very well need to tip the cuff to match the lower leg angle or build up on the medial side of your shin to help you get earlier pressure.  You can experiment with trail maps.  Begin with one and add one at a time to feel the effects.  I have been using a small thickness of 1/8 inch dense foam on my left medial side and love it, but tried it today on my right and hated it.  Not uncommon at all to be assymetrical in our canting needs.
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