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Edge and Base bevel- Consensus

post #1 of 34
Thread Starter 
 I have read on here and other sites that a 3 degree side and a 1 degree base bevel is "standard". I'm confused though because 3 shops in my local ski town have told me that a 1 and 1 is standard. Is it simply because in an area of greater snowfall the shops see a 3/1 as unnecessary for a hill that rarely sees ice ? Are they wrong? Am I missing something here? Would there be any benefit to a 1/1 in off piste conditions where overly sharp skis could hang-up in unwanted situations?

Thanks. 
post #2 of 34
My opinion is tha:t:

Many shops (not all) are set up for one setting and it will work for most people that tune their skis once or twice a year. 

No matter what they agree to do (that you request), they will probably do what they want anyway.

I have all my skis and my daughters skis at 1/3.  Had to go to a specialty shop for this.

If you go to a high end shop that deals with racers, you can get what you want and/or they can tell you what you should be getting.

If you are tuning your own skis, make sure what the shop is tuning them to and the tools you have match.
post #3 of 34
Thread Starter 
 These are all specialty ski shops that will readily accept any request. When I asked what they did as standard they said " 1/1, would you like anything different? " That's why i'm confused, i'm not getting my skis tuned at some big box sports store, these are dedicated ski shops that know their stuff.

Why the different opinion? 
post #4 of 34
1/1 a mellow tune that's suitable for the social skiing crowd, many of whom have taken two days -- or less -- of lessons.  In short, it's suitable for the majority of people on the slopes, but read on.  Skis tuned 1/1 won't give as much performance on firmer snow, but they're more tolerant of operator error. 

Since you're posting here on epic, you probably have the skills or the motivation to ski with a bit more edge angle.  2 or 3* will help bring the ski to life and, provided you have the requisite skills, increase edge hold on hard snow.  The base bevel is more of a factor in grabbiness or catching an edge than the side bevel, so don't worry about increasing the side bevel.  Personally, I go for a higher performance 0.5/3 tune, but then my handle is sharpedges.

If you're still not sure, describe your skiing style and technique preferences to the shop and ask what they recommend specifically for you. 

Caveat lector:  if you "ski" metal on metal on terrain park features then you probably don't want a very aggressive tune.
post #5 of 34
Thread Starter 
 Thanks for the response. I'm definitely going to get at least my frontside skis tuned at 3/1. 
post #6 of 34
"These are all specialty ski shops that will readily accept any request. When I asked what they did as standard they said " 1/1, would you like anything different? " That's why i'm confused, i'm not getting my skis tuned at some big box sports store, these are dedicated ski shops that know their stuff."

I'm talking about specialty ski shops too.  In fact the ones I was talking about are closed now and won't open until the end of summer or fall.  All they sell are skis, snowboards and the equipment that goes with them..

What SharpEdges said is correct. 

Most folks skid or are only using the back half of the ski so if the tune is off, they probably won't know.
post #7 of 34
 I agree and tune all my and my families skis 1/3.  As far as helping the lower level skiers, I'll detune the tips and tails for them, but still keep the 3 degree side. 
post #8 of 34
There is no universal standard tuning configuration that fits everyone.  There are typical combinations, based on performance & skill level, for different groups of skiers.  Getting the right tune is an important factor in having the ski perform appropriately for a given skier in their particular environment. 

Sharpedges in #4 has outlined some of the common combinations pretty well.  A good shop will be able to accommodate any of these typical configurations; a really good shop will accommodate more obsure requests as well. 

A couple of the shops in my area batch their skis up for target markets, and set their machines accordingly for these batches, e.g. 1 base/2 edge for good recreational skiers & young developing racers, or 0.5 base/3 edge for more advanced racers.  This helps them address needs of different skier levels, without losing a lot of time (and money) to too many machine changes.
post #9 of 34
Tmay

I would guess that for everyday tunes 2/1 or 1/1 is more standard as is stated above.  Typically it is advanced skiers that request a 3/1 tune.  Some may even still tune a 90 degree side edge.

An important thing to keep in mind is frequency of tune.  A 3/1 will dull more rapidly than a 1/1 tune.  If you are not keeping your skis in good tune by tuning regularly then you will appreciate this difference.  however if you are only tuning once a month or less the skis will dull faster and there is not much point - a more standard 1/2 would likely last longer.

Signing off for the summer - time to go sailing

Was 77 degrees (25C) at our ski hill on closing day.  Great for the Aqua-neige!

Mike
Edited by mikehoyt - 4/8/10 at 6:27am
post #10 of 34
 A 2/1 = 2 Base,  1 side edge.  A 3/1  = 3 base 1 side edge. Base bevel is always quoted first. So you mean a 1/2 or a 1/3.

Also you are spewing a ridiculous inaccurate myth. Did you do some scientific testing.?

This is just an old wives tale. A 3 side edge dulls no faster then a 1 or 2.

In fact I will take a duller 3 over a sharper 2 anyday. But it just ain't true that a 3 dulls quicker!

Please read this page in it's entirety.

http://www.skimd.com/parameters.php

and just in case you don't think he knows what he is talking about here are his Creds!!

Mike de Santis founded, owns and operates SkiMD. His experience is unsurpassed at the retail level, allowing the beginner through expert or racing participant access to factory level service. 20 years of continual development has created an ideal refinishing system that works for everyone.

While at Volkl, Mike was overwhelmed with the negative feedback on the company website from consumers in regards to their first “shop stonegrind.” The retail effort back then and now continue to be apathetic regarding the proper restoration and installation of tuning parameters. Realizing the need for someone in the ski service industry who could consistently deliver the proper finish to shaped skis and snowboards, is what prompted Mike to leave Volkl and develop the SkiMD Refinishing System.

Mike’s extensive background combined with 43 years in the sport of skiing, are instrumental to his success:

  • Graduate Stratton Mountain Ski Academy 79’
     
  • NCAA competitor UVM Ski Team
     
  • Physical Education Degree UVM 84’
     
  • 7 years World Cup Technician/ WC Race Director for Volkl
     
  • 4 years Product Development Manager for Volkl
     
  • Member Volkl International Test Team
     
  • Lifetime Achievement Award for excellence in the fields of World Cup Service and Product Development for Volkl Skis.
     
  • Technical service consultant for Volkl, Blizzard, Dynastar and Elan skis
     


Mike created his own proprietary finishes for top athletes such as Hilary Lindh, the 97’ DH World Champion. Kate Pace, the 93’ DH World Champion. Katja Seizinger, the overall World Cup women’s downhill winner many seasons over. Other athletes include Picabo Street, Kristina Koznick, Heidi Voelker, and former U.S. Snowboarding Team athlete Rosy Fletcher, Olympic Bronze medalist. Working in tandem with Volkl Germany, allowed Mike access to some of the very best factory technicians in the world. Combined with deep factory knowledge of ski design and construction, the foundation was built to create a system that has such a broad level of success. This is what truly differentiates SkiMD from all the rest.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mikehoyt View Post

Tmay

I would guess that for everyday tunes 2/1 or 1/1 is more standard as is stated above.  Typically it is advanced skiers that request a 3/1 tune.  Some may even still tune a 90 degree side edge.

An important thing to keep in mind is frequency of tune.  A 3/1 will dull more rapidly than a 1/1 tune.  If you are not keeping your skis in good tune by tuning regularly then you will appreciate this difference.  however if you are only tuning once a month or less the skis will dull faster and there is not much point - a more standard 1/2 would likely last longer.

Signing off for the summer - time to go sailing

Was 77 degrees (25C) at our ski hill on closing day.  Great for the Aqua-neige!

Mike
post #11 of 34
Like it has been said, 1/1 is a generic tune. Where are you located? I have a 1/2 on my outlaws, .5/2 on my GS boards and a 1/2 on my downhill boards(twin tip edges don't have any edge left). For the outlaws I like to have some edge for when I get into icy chutes or traverses, and i do sometimes change my side edge on the rest of my skis. Figure out what base angle you want and get a tool for the side edge
http://www.ski-racing.com/side_of_beast.html is nice. I have 2* 3* and 5*(not sure if they sell it anymore and never use it).     

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmay11 View Post

 I have read on here and other sites that a 3 degree side and a 1 degree base bevel is "standard". I'm confused though because 3 shops in my local ski town have told me that a 1 and 1 is standard. Is it simply because in an area of greater snowfall the shops see a 3/1 as unnecessary for a hill that rarely sees ice ? Are they wrong? Am I missing something here? Would there be any benefit to a 1/1 in off piste conditions where overly sharp skis could hang-up in unwanted situations?

Thanks. 
post #12 of 34
From playing around over the years, I have noticed the following points.

A 0.5 base bevel works best for me.  0 degrees is a little too restrictive; forget about it for a half a second and look over your shoulder so see if your son is still following you as you go over some frozen ruts and you will get spun around.  Making short carved turns with a 0-3 tune and a long radius ski at slow speeds is not the easiest thing to do.  1 is a little too much; it just doesn't feel precise at low tipping angles, but it's not so bad that I would get a base grind just to get rid of it.  Once you have them up on edge the base bevel makes very little (still some) difference. I currently have two pairs of skis at 1 degree base bevel and they can stay that way until I need a base grind.

Side bevel of 3 degrees works well for me, but I haven't tried more, the more acute the better the edge grip.  However I have noticed that a less acute angle is easier to modulate when you are skidding turns and are going between hooked up - locked in and sliding smoothly.  It's kind of like having a tire with a very high grip, but a sudden release versus a tire that releases gradually when it starts to slide.  The less the side bevel on the edge, the more gradual the transition between grip and slide.

The "standard" 1-1 tune is likely for the "standard" customer who doesn't have the first clue about how to ski.

The other "standard" 1-2 is likely for folk who spend more time steering than making high speed railroad track like turns on icy hardpack.

A 0.5 - 3 is great for hard snow with a preference for edge-locked carving.

If the snow is soft and deep, the edge tune does a no matter.
post #13 of 34
On race skis, usual prep is as follows
SL 0-0.5/3-5, GS 0.75/3, SG 1/3, DH 1.5/3
All other skis is 1/3.
post #14 of 34


Quote:
Originally Posted by Betaracer View Post

On race skis, usual prep is as follows
SL 0-0.5/3-5, GS 0.75/3, SG 1/3, DH 1.5/3
All other skis is 1/3.

 
post #15 of 34
Thread Starter 
 Some good info here, thanks.
post #16 of 34
1/3 is a little much for a rec ski, 1/2 works well especially for west cost snow. Only time I've ever needed to run a 3* edge is at hood during the summer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Betaracer View Post

On race skis, usual prep is as follows
SL 0-0.5/3-5, GS 0.75/3, SG 1/3, DH 1.5/3
All other skis is 1/3.
 
post #17 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post

 I agree and tune all my and my families skis 1/3.  As far as helping the lower level skiers, I'll detune the tips and tails for them, but still keep the 3 degree side. 

 
It will be interesting to see how ski tuning will change for the early rise skis, I don't think any detuning will be needed for those.

As a ski tech for well over 30 years I have tuned few skis in my time, I work at one of those ski shops that will tune a ski to whatever a customer wants, most customers would not know what the factory edge angles are, but I am a firm believer in keeping the factory set edge angles, so I often have to measure them before doing the edges.
Everyone has an opinion on what is best, and mine may differ from others.
In Australia we don't get a lot of powder, so good edge hold is more important than what would be required for deep fresh powder, I have played around a lot with edge angles both for base and side edge, and for our firm snow I have found if the ski is torsionally firm enough a 3/1 works best, from what I have measured, as well most of the better skis that suit Australian hard snow come from the factory with a 3/1 setting, a 4/1 setting was just not any significant benefit for recreational skiing and needed sharpening more often.
A 2/1 setting is fine for softer snow and often skis that leave the factory with those angles are also softer flexing and if changed to a more aggressive angle will only twist torsionally and let the edge go anyway.
I played around with a zero base bevel for a while and while it did give a quicker edge engagement turn to turn, it did see me want to always be on one edge or the other as the transition was not user friendly, I now suggest at least 0.5 degrees to 1.0 for the base and really, unless you have access to a stone grinder you should not be playing around with base edge bevels.
I have not detuned ski edges since the days of straight skis, I usually get them as sharp as I can tip to tail between the contact points, then run a piece of Fibretex full length from tip to tail just the once to remove any burrs left by the diamond file, to me there is no such thing as an edge that is too sharp.
For my own skis, I run a diamond file along the edges after every day of skiing, I use a 1/3 setting and have a file guide set at 87 degrees with a medium diamond file in it, after dipping it in water I run it over the side edges at the end of each day, this sees my skis always sharp and they never need to be hit with a chrome file to bring them back sharp, it only takes me a minute to do and my skis are consistently the same tune, most recreational skiers get skis with sharp edges then slowly let them get duller each day, after many days they get them resharpened by a file which removes a lot of edge material, only to see them get slowly dull each time they ski them.
post #18 of 34
it would be nice if edge technology would advance, does anyone know what alloy of steel most edges are? I would love to see a properly hardened and cryo'd  4130 edges might stay sharper.
post #19 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaStraightLine View Post

it would be nice if edge technology would advance, does anyone know what alloy of steel most edges are? I would love to see a properly hardened and cryo'd  4130 edges might stay sharper.
Pretty sure this topic was covered recently, and some companies have tried harder edge material only to see it crack the edge and then the ski starts to delaminate, ski edges are only just soft enough to be tuned by hand with a chrome file, if they were much harder only ski shops with machines would be able to tune them, and that would get expensive.
post #20 of 34
Betaracer's numbers are right on the money.
I go 0.5/3 on my skis and 0.5/2 on my kids race skis.
post #21 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Betaracer View Post

On race skis, usual prep is as follows
SL 0-0.5/3-5, GS 0.75/3, SG 1/3, DH 1.5/3
All other skis is 1/3.
 


I was just on a race tuning course and the shop tech said the opposite to this.. in that speed skis should have LESS base bevel as the edge angles the skier typically achieves in DH is a lot lot less than SL or GS and that the rate of engagement is slower so having the skis on rails for DH is preferable...

 

not sure i agree with this but the guy tunes for some decent skiers, maybe it is just some athletes prefer this and its not a rule of thumb ??..

post #22 of 34

In all good tuning courses the "presenter" always begins with this statement! Tuning is based on 30% science or hard objective data and 70% perception, past practices, feelings, "guru" hand me downs!

If you ask World Cup technicians what they really do for x,y,z skier,,,,they will NOT tell you!

 

Bottom line is,,,,it is up to the skier,,the racer to decide! You can have "debates" for several hours on this issue and still not get a con census!

 

There is no hard fast rule. It depends is the best answers!

 

I know what works for me,,,and I stick to it! It is up to each skier/racer to determine his/her technical preference and once you believe in it,,,,,,,it will work!

 

Look up "Hawthorn Effect"!!!

 

Respectfully,

Vistman

post #23 of 34

0.5 - 3  for carving. Vary slightly for different conditions/courses.  More edge makes it more acute for ice grip, less base also makes it more acute, but also makes it hook up sooner (and more abruptly) when initiating.  Skiing on ice/hardpack is where the difference is noticeable - deep snow, not so much.

 

Vary by skier preference:

1 -3 works a little better than the above for  non-edge-locked turns; it's a little less abrupt, but requires a bit more assertiveness to engage an edge.

0.5 -2 makes it a little easier to break edge-lock when skidding tight turns on straight skis.

1 -2 standard for a lot of skis because most skiers find it easier to use, but 0.5 - 3 really does work much better if you have at least a modicum of skill.

 

BTW I've skied all of the above angles in all conditions.

post #24 of 34

thanks guys i would think having a standard set up that works for you (say  0.5 / 3) seems to be a good choice for an all round race tune and that getting good at tuning through practice to ensure  a consistent quality finish is better than a having multiple base angle options.

 

i too have tried 0, 0.5 and 1 on my SL skis and they definitely hook up faster with a zero base but i have been high sided a few times and taken em back to 0.5. I had always assumed that a zero or 0.25 base was for SL and DH or SG skis would use a less agressive base angle of something like 0.7 or 1.0 but the tech was arguing the opposite and has got me wondering if there actually is a general rule of thumb in the industry.

 

What do race coaches in the states advise to their athletes? one standard set up for all disciplines or vary according to hill steepness and discipline?

post #25 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by skimottaret View Post

thanks guys i would think having a standard set up that works for you (say  0.5 / 3) seems to be a good choice for an all round race tune and that getting good at tuning through practice to ensure  a consistent quality finish is better than a having multiple base angle options.

 

If you mean having the same base edge angles for different disciplines, i totally disagree.  A SL turn or Gs turn hardly resembles the much slower transition that is used in DH or even SG.

And also the considerable differnce in ski length from discipline to discipline would seem to dispell this idea.

 

 

Since  transitions are slower in DH & SG and the ability to glide (in DH, more so) is so important more base bevel is the rule of thumb in DH & SG.

 

 A 3 degree side edge or more is what givesyou the grip once the ski is hooked up, but you don't need nor want your skiis hooking up too fast in speed events. if you thought high- siding in SL was tough try that at 70 MPH on a pair 215 DH skis!

 

My experience has been Atomic Speed skis come from the Factory 1/3.

 

In DH particulalry, the outside edges of the tips (read little toe side) are very often detuned even more) again at 50-75 MPH do you need your skis hooking up instantaneoulsy like in SL or even GS. But also you docertainly don't want to catch an edge or hook part of tip. 

 

Of course not!

 

1-1.5 base bevel is preferable.

 

I do believe Bill Johnson often used a 3 degree base bevel in DH

 

 


Edited by Atomicman - 9/10/10 at 11:51am
post #26 of 34

thanks atomicman, confirms my suspicions that the tech was perhaps being lead by whispers and rumours and not thinking this through....

 

post #27 of 34

I always learn a lot from ATOMICMAN, Alpinord and others. Thanks for the thorough posts.

 

Here is a problem brought up by Alpinord and others in the past: bases that are not flat.  My wine fridge is thankfully full from friends who bring over their skis for waxing or tuning and feel guilty unless they bring over a bottle or two.  I didn't file the last two pair that found their way into my garage from a Cub Scout dad because his K2 was very concave, and his wife's pair was very convex (that is, her skis).  At what point do the tolerances matter for a recreational skier?

 

A concave or convex base will throw the edge and base angle off when using a file guide (mine are SVST).   I imagine that the bulk of the people don't  ski on flat bases since most skis sold today are probably not flat!  Will a recreational skier care if part of his/her ski is at 1/1.5 (K2's current suggested , while another part of the same ski is at 0.5/2.0 degrees?  At what point will the average guy/gal know something is wrong?

post #28 of 34

A convex base must be ground flat before tuning, but I have had skis I have returned and received warranty replacements for becuase of convex bases. it depends on why it's convex. In the case of the skis I have had replaced, the skis did not press together correctly when built and were convex only under foot.

 

As far as concavity goes, you are correct that it can play havoc with any base bevel tool that has a  "foot or slide" which sits down in the low  areas of the base.  But with that sai, as long as the base is flat about 10-20mm (figure 1/2" to 5/8" ) in from the edge the ski will ski fine.

 

TOKO makes a base edge bevelr that spans the entire base of the ski, On a  ski with enough flatness in from each edge this tool lays flat.

 

http://www.reliableracing.com/detail.cfm?edp=10617538

 

 

Many wider skis (and this is usually only a problem in the tip and tail area and also the most crucial areas to have accurate bevels) have too much concavity to ever grind out with out drastically reducing the life of the ski.

 

Ya get 'em as flat as is reasonable (even if only 10-20 mm) and the tune em' the best you can. If they are grabby and or won't release a turn smoothly)when skied on you just have to add a bit more base bevel in the tip and tail area until they hook up smoothly and release smoothly.

 

Most side edge bevelers fot [plate is narrow enough that with a resonable flat are the side edge bevel angle should be OK

post #29 of 34

The more acute the edge angle, the bigger the chunk of steel knocked out when you hit a rock.

The more acute the edge angle, the more skidder-type skiers will find that the skis grab the snow unexpectedly.

 

The less acute the edge angle, the less the ski will grip hard snow for a carver.

The less the base bevel, the more likely the ski will grab the snow unexpectedly for the less-than-precise skier.

On wetter snow more base bevel rides better.

 

I see no sense in re-tuning skis to whatever the factory put on them, even if that particular factory did a good tuning job--and not all ski factories do a good job.  I want skis tuned to best suit the skier's style and the snow conditions.

 

Detuning the tips & tails was immediately obsolete when base edge bevels were invented.  Sharp edges up past the tip contact points can cause problems if the sharp edge catches the side of a frozen rut and climbs that rut.

 

I like my carving skis at 3° side bevel and .75° base bevel tapered to 1° at the tip & tail.  This is for West Coast snow.  For Rocky Mt. snow and a carver skier, try 0.5° or maybe 0.5° beveled to more angle at the tips & tails.  My powder skis are 1° base and 2° side bevel for the occasional packed run I'm on getting to or from the powder runs.

post #30 of 34

I use .5/3.5 for SL, and have GS skis with .5 and 1 base bevels  and 3 sides.  I have the .5 on softer skis for turnier courses. I use a 1/3 on the long stiff skis I use for my one SG a year. For powder, I use 1 and 2. There is WC test data on the Edgewise web site on what base bevels work best based on the steepness of the hill which I read as indicating that .75 is probably best for carving skis assuming that you don't have a gigantic quiver. Obviously, I am not of the school that thinks 1 set up is best for everything.

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