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Epic Ski Academy - A fresh thread

post #1 of 101
Thread Starter 
I've gotten a couple of PM's about the Epic academy as I have tried to encourgae holding it at Solitude. Given that that the discussion seems to be scattered about at this point I thought I'd start a new thread.



The Clinic:

Instructor Pre-Clinic Gathering - January 26, 2003

Sudents - January 27-30 , 2003
(most likely at Solitude, UT)


The Gathering:

January 31 - February 3
(with bulk of participants at Alta/Snowbird but splinter groups perhaps going to Snowbasin, Powder Mountain, etc)

See Calendar



Personally, I'm not very concerned about organization. With a group of interesting and committed instructors and learners (many of whom can really be considered in both categories!) I don't think there will be any problem with learning, advancement, fun, and satisfaction.

As per Nolo's comment I am hoping that Maddog will reappear and provide some leadership here. However, we also should get a participating instructor to work with Leif (ski school director) to get their blessing.

My suggestion for organization would be to split up to reasonably sized groups based on individual assessment of level (no more than 10 or 12) and do a 1-2 hour or so tour of Solitude (a ride up to the 2 or 3 topmost lifts - Eagle Express, Powderhorn, and Summit). (I would also be happy to tour the instructors on the 26th to give them an orientation or perhaps better yet get someone like Leif to do it - a great way to get him inovled?). At that point I would think people could cooperatively split into smaller groups after seeing each other ski and getting to know the instructors (in person!) a bit better.

From there each group could just design their own learning experiences. Also, instructors could switch around every day or two if that is desired. Obviously there are pro's and con's to keeping the same instructor and group vs. switching around.

Also, I am more than willing to work with Dan (Silver Fork owner - 1 mile from Solitude w/free shuttle service) to make that our headquarters for the academy. I'm not sure what prices for rooms there will be like (less than Solitude's offer, I guarantee!) but I am more than happy to negotiate that for people. Also, it would give us meeting and social room for free!.

OK that's my 3 cents.
post #2 of 101
If "blessing" from Solitude is not forthcoming, there's nothing wrong with friends just skiing together and, oh, by the way, "sharing some thoughts" on technique. Last season, I set up a day to ski with a fellow Bear. So happens, he's an instructor! I just asked him to keep an eye on me and let me know if he spoted anything about my technique. That accidentally turned into the best day of instruction I've ever had! Made more progress that day than in the previous ten years!

My point is that, as long as we can agree on where and when to meet up, we don't need to look like an organized "event" - all the better to look informal if ther's no "blessing" from Solitude. The experience of teaching and learning can be, for official purposes, "free of charge", with gratuities to follow privately.

What do you think?
post #3 of 101
Thread Starter 
Skidmo just sent me a PM with a good suggestion. Let's just forget about the "Acadamy" and make this the Epic Ski Club Gathering:

Part 1: Solitude

Part 2: Snowbird/Alta

Then we can stop dealing with ski area politics and get on with creating a fun and fulfilling learning experience.
post #4 of 101
Right now, it looks to me like there's a lot of interest, but no one showing up! "Sure, I'd love to go ski in Utah for a week. Would you mind paying for the trip for me?"

I wouldn't waste a bunch of cycles on this until you see how many are going to be there.

Because right now, the list of attendees for the Gathering is pretty small.
post #5 of 101
Don't say that!
Some of us are travelling over 5,000 miles just to get there (and another 5,000 back). If this thing doesn't happen, I'll be very annoyed. I might even need a good lawyer.
Does anyone know any good lawyers?

post #6 of 101
I am arrainging to take a few days off my teaching schedule to be there. What more must I do to convince everyone that I will be at Solitude from 1/26-1/29? If no one shows, then I will ski alone for a day and go home!
post #7 of 101
Actually, Fox, you'll be in the Solitude group with a few damn fine lawyers - pains in the ass, but damn fine lawyers. I understand one of them can even ski worth a damn.
post #8 of 101
If the instructors outnumber the students, I'll be glad to take on as many instructors as can handle me!
post #9 of 101
First of all, I haven't read all the threads on the pros and cons of where the clinic should be held, and I know that many are going to be staying close to Big and Little Cottonwood Canyons, and I know that I certainly do not post enough for my opinion have much weight, but I'm not a big fan of Solitude. I've read about the Snowbird's kybosh on the clinic. Does Alta feel the same way? How about Snowbasin? Is that way too far? I'm purely speaking selfishly since I've skied Solitude a few times just don't like it that much. I would strongly consider going to the clinic if it were at another location. Again I realize that many have spoken their opinion previously, but it seems that little has been set in stone yet. What do you guys and gals think?

(I've also posted these exact same comments in the "Who's going to the Utah clinic? " thread in the Meet-On-the-Hill Planning forum.)
post #10 of 101
I had dinner with a senior instructor from The Canyons who offered to help us make arrangements to hold the clinics there if we wanted. He didn't think there'd be any problem and that SSD Joel Munn would welcome us.

I've never skied there, so locals please advise.

You know, it might not be a bad idea to cop a bit of attitude about our potential, and start forging relationships with resorts as EpicHost Resorts, and get them to compete to have us instead of making us feel we need to hide the skier development activities under the guise of a club meeting. The event was designed to be a clinic for three days and a gathering of the Bears for three days. Let the host resort understand that it's getting in on the ground floor of an event that will only grow as the community grows (and throw in the actual statistics, because they have to be fairly mind-boggling).

There have been a lot of great ideas suggested to make this a really great clinic/gathering, from the debut of the EpicSki House Band to the boot/alignment clinic. We've heard that we should do three days with one instructor, four hour daily sessions with a new instructor each day, and have Oboe and Fox give the clinics for all the instructors.

In my opinion, this clinic/gathering is a GO. Rather than posting a list for people to add their names to as a sign of their commitment, let's give people something to commit to.

Here you go: January 27-29, 2003 is the clinic. We aren't sure where yet. But plan to ski a few of the major resorts in the SLC area.

We will have the following menu of clinics (this is for illustration, not set in stone):

Boot/alignment 6 hours (one full day).
A indoor/on snow clinic conducted by a boot/alignment specialist and an Epic instructor with the objective of diagnosing and correcting basic alignment for more effective movements.

Three day clinic.
Four hours each day with the same instructor for three days of in-depth coaching at your level with peers. Topics negotiated by the group.

Specialty Clinics 4 hours (3/4 day)

Off Piste
Technical Refinement

*We recommend all skiers take advantage of a complimentary "alignment check" conducted by our coaches to assess whether you should attend the boot/alignment clinic. The boot/alignment clinic can be incorporated into the Three Day Clinic.

**Please designate your skills as: 1) green; 2) blue; 3) easy black; 4) all-terrain/conditions.

***Please designate your preferred pace as: A) mild; B) medium; C) hot.


What do you think?
post #11 of 101
nolo, sounds good to me! I've been going with the "informal" thingy at Solitude, but hey, if your plan works, I'm for it. I've been asking several folks to accept the "point position" to lead this thing, and several [!] have declined. Bob Barnes says he will accept "the point position" but only if the other instructors and students agree, as will Tom Burch. Maybe one of them can be General Eisenhower and the other can be General Omar Bradly - aaaagghhh! I know this dates me. OK, one of them can be General Colin Powell and the other can be General "Stormin' Norman" Schwartzkopf.

. . . and nolo can be nolo [there's only one!] . . . . and Si [sigh] has been involved more than many, too, so these guys can be colonels on staff.

Would everyone who is agreeable to the Barnes/Burch or the Burch/Barnes duo please PLEASE pm them and TELL THEM SO!! Like, SOOOON!

In the absence [temporary?] of maddog, I'll carry water for "the man". Just tell me who's "the man".
post #12 of 101
Old saying: You can't expect an empty bag to stand up.

Bob Barnes and Tom Burch are perfect. I'm sure they'd agree that this is a 100% collaborative thing--the decision of each of us to make this event go is what will make it successful. Go team go.
post #13 of 101
Thread Starter 
My vote in support of Barnes/Birch.

For those who have commented earlier about location. Solitude was suggested/selected based on the fact that it gives variety to the week (gathering on 1/30-2/2 at Snowbird and Alta) and yet let people stay put in the same lodging. Also it has no crowds, little or no lift lines, excellent variety of terrain for learning, and great snow preservation.

One of our Epic instructors has sent me a PM and is contacting Leif Grevle (Solitude ski school director) to try and get the resorts official approval.
post #14 of 101
Yes to Barnes/Burch! I'll try to come out
on 1/24, to avoid any possibilities of altitude sickness.

I will take clinic IF instructor does not mind a group of one. Keep in mind, I've skied only about 50 days in my life, and mostly N.E.

If instructors are meeting on 1/26, are you iterested in doing an evening workshop on muscle imbalances, postural alignment, past injuries, and how they effect motor patterns, which ultimately effect skiing?
I'm doing a similar class for fitness pros who work with balance training equipment.
post #15 of 101
I, also, would like to vote for Bush/Buchanan.

Oh, sorry, I put my chad in the wrong place. I mean, I would heartily agree with my right honourable friends.
Barnes/Burch get my support.


[ August 24, 2002, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: Wear the fox hat ? ]
post #16 of 101
Can someone give an idea of costs - please

Finding airfares will be a scrounge - so I need to know how much more I need to find...
post #17 of 101
I'm on the bandwagon for Barnes/Burch 2003! As I've stated before, I'm very interested in the clinic but not that excited about Solitude. I'm certainly not a Solitude local but from my few visits to Solitude I don't think there's three days of terrain that would keep me interested, let alone enough terrain to run a 3 day clinic. I'd be especially concerned about easily accessible off piste/steeps. And, as I recall, many of the potential clinic attendees have stated that they wanted to work on off piste/steeps. This was the #1 most requested clinic focus and #2 was steeper trails. Does Solitude have enough easily accessible off piste and steep terrain to teach on for 3 days? I know that not all the teaching is going to be done on off piste/steep terrain but even after one day of skiing at Solitude I feel like I've skiied everything interesting. Sure Honeycomb Canyon is nice but the runout it quite a long slog and it takes forever (I think 3-4 chairs) to get back. I don't recall it having that many steep trails either. I know that everytime I'm there I'm frustrated that it takes so many chairs to get to the good stuff. The place is not that big (1200 acres and it doesn't ski bigger than that) and doesn't have that much vertical (slightly over 2000 ft). I know that Alta only has around 2000 ft. vertical, but the terrain at the two are vastly different. Lastly, and selfishly, my ski buddy that will likely be accompanying me, if I am able to come, has vowed to never set foot at Solitude again. 2 seasons ago he broke his leg there in a freak injury. So, if it's at Solitude, he definitely will not want to go, and there's a high likelihood that I will not be able to attend as well. Certainly, I do not think that I'm so important or people should be so concerned about my opinion that the clinic should change locations based on whether I will be able to attend or not. I'm no Nolo, Gonzo or Snack but, I think I've raised some otherwise valid arguments against Solitude.

Personally, my first choice would be Alta or Snowbird. These may be 2 of the best places to learn to ski off piste and steep terrain. But, unless everyone feels comfortable doing a "we're just a bunch of friends skiing together for 3 days in a row in groups of 6 separated arbitrarily with some of us having PSIA Level III certs giving advice to the others but no money exchanging hands except for 'friendly tipping' that occurs at apres ski" it sounds like those two are out. I know there are some that advocate this approach, but IMHO from the posts I've read from Bob Barnes and other highly respected instructors, I get the impression that it wouldn't be very judicious for us to decide to have the clinic where the ski school isn't fully aware and supportive of what we are doing. I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable knowing what the many instructors have stated and feel about "under the table" lessons at their home ski school. Also, I don't think it would be fair for us to put our clinic instructors in a position in which they may be compromising their principles and/or professional ethics.

With that rant finished, didn't Utah49 have a good experience with bringing an outside instructor to the Canyons. And, it sounds like Nolo is having constructive talks with their ski school. I've never been to the Canyons but I know it's pretty much loaded with high speed quads that have easy access to virtually all different types of terrain, including the steeper, off-piste variety. Ninety Nine 90 sounds like the perfect place to yo-yo steep, off-piste runs. I know that Jamesdeluxe loves the place. Is there anyone else out there with vast knowledge on the terrain of the Canyons and whether it would be well suited for the needs of clinic? How long of a drive would it be assuming that many people are staying close to the mouths of the Cottonwood Canyons? Certainly carpooling would be an option. I've also heard great things about Snowbasin and would love to ski there. The terrain is supposedly Alta-like and, unlike Alta, no crowds (not yet at least from what I've heard). How much longer would it take to get to Snowbasin vs. the Canyons? Any thoughts?
post #18 of 101
(A) I'm letting the professionals decide if they'll do the "informal" route - it's fine by me if it works for them.

(B) Whatever anyone wants to learn, the clinic can still start at Solitude and then any "steep camp" folks can go to whatever suits them and the "steep" instructor - many of us are not so advanced that we want to learn how to hurl ourselves off cliffs or down near vertical drops. None of the professionals have challenged the utility of Solitude for instructional purposes alone. If Barnes/Burch are leading this, they should be cut tons of slack if they stick with Solitude - or go to some other venue.

(C) Alta and Snowbird are fine with me if there simply MUST be a change, because they're at least in LCC and convenient to reach, even by bus. The Canyons, however, takes a drive, so I'd prefer to sample that AFTER the full clinic has been completed.

(D) Once the leaders speak on this subject, it should be CLOSED. Changing this, changing that - nothing ever gets done.

(E) Remember, there most likely will be clinics in future years, and they can be at venues other than Solitude - or other than Utah.
post #19 of 101
Thread Starter 

I don't mean to be vehement in disagreeing with you about Solitude. You are certainly entitled to your own opinion. But as this is a public forum I would like to present an opinion on the other side. (Hint - I like Solitude)

1) Solitude definitely does ski much larger than it's 1200 acres. The better you know it, the more this is true. This of course is dependent upon a skiers attitudes, likes, and dislikes.

2) Solitude's short or non-existent lift lines are definitely a big plus.

3) Solitude, a little like Snowbird, has a paucity of great beginner terrain. On the other hand, they have a very nice variety of groomers ranging from the easy blue side to quite steep. These, I think, would provide great teaching terrain for a good sized sub-group of those coming.

4) There is no dirth of challenging steeps at Solitude. Many of them people never ski because they are not really obvious. The "Milk Run" area off of the Powder Horn lift is fantastic in terms of offering little crux's in very steep terrain all along the way. On the other hand, there usually is a way around these for those not quite up to these challenges yet. You have to be a pretty good skier (an understatement) to ski this area non stop and connect all the way down. For those who wish to work on steep terrain in a bit more open environment the area between Powderhorn and Eagle Express is pretty ideal teaching terrain (Paradise, Vertigo, Rhapsody). Towards the Powderhorn lift are also some nice trees with reasonable pitch. The traverse below the Evergreen ridge is also great off piste teaching terrain. The traverse itself is a great learning adventure for those who want to expand the terrain they can ski (somewhat like the high traverse at Alta). There are a number of nice steep little chutes between the trees off this traverse. Alternatively, a short hike to the top of the ridge and a (pretty long) traverse along the crest brings you to a pretty long steep open face, perfect teaching ground, again. I don't know how many people will be interested in this kind of hike/traverse but some may be.

5) A lot of the stuff that stay's fresh the longest is way out around Honeycomb canyon, no doubt. I don't think a large group of participants will be interested in doing this regularly, but it's a nice adventure (long traverse/slog) for those who want some fresh snow in steep terrain. On the other hand, the gates off of the Eagle Express offer a few good shots that are superb teaching steeps - relatively wide steep chutes through the trees and rocks that are great places to learn to connect short steep turns. These really become tremendously more accessible this year as they are over half way through installing the Honeycomb return lift which should be up and running by Christmas. This lift will make all of Honeycomb (especially the bluer middle section) more accesible. (From my own perspective I wish they hadn't installed this lift - I'd rather have fewer skiers and boarders with a long traverse out).

6) The backcountry access from Solitude is as good or better than anywhere in the Salt Lake are.

7) Lift passes are at Alta prices.

Okay, I obviously think there are a lot of positives about Solitude, heck I bought a place there. To be balanced here are some negatives.

1) Only one high speed lift. For those who want to rapidly yo-yo the Eagle Express is the only detachable quad (although there are more on the way in the next couple of years). (Remember, Atla has none). A positive side effect - great snow preservation.

2) The lift alignments does not follow the fall line. This means you need to traverse a bit to fully explore the terrain off of any particular lift. Some people do not like this or are confused by it. A positive side effect - great snow preservation.

3) Some of the terrain require a long traverse/uphill slog to access (like the far side of Honeycomb Canyon). This is not for everyone. A positive side effect - great snow preservation.

Bottom line is that I think Solitude is a great kind of "alternative" area. The quality of the skiing experience can be up there with the big boys, sometimes even better given that the snow lasts longer. My first experience at Solitude left me with an impression similar to Prosper's. It has changed dramatically. It is not a perfect place but a place that could be used quite effectively for the Epic Academy. A half or full day orientation for the instructors, as they seem to be planning, would be most helpful. If, on the other hand, people have substantial doubts about Solitude, let's find another place.

Snowbasin would be a GREAT place as well. Unfortunately it still, as of yet, has no closeby lodging. I am not too knowledgeable, but I think people could pretty easily get up to the mountain staying in Ogden. It's about an hour from the base of the Cottonwood Canyons.

[ August 25, 2002, 07:57 AM: Message edited by: Si ]
post #20 of 101

Where is the location of the event headquarters, i.e., the place where the bears will gather on Sunday night to register for the clinics?

Do we all have to ski at the same place if we have a headquarters where we can gather back together at the end of the day?

With all the options available, it may be that the bears, like other vacationers, would like to sample a few resorts and not spend more than a day or two at any one resort.

I would recommend scheduling the "alignment check" (featuring LisaMarie & the coaches) Sunday night to funnel people to the boot/alignment clinic on Monday. We could form the other groups at that time, they could meet, and determine their resort rotation, transportation, etc.

In other words, bears would show up at Sunday night registration with a blank schedule for three days and would leave with each day's who, what, when, where, how filled in.

Something someone in one of my clinics said has stuck with me: we like to learn, but we're also on vacation at a new mountain, and we'd like to ski it while we learn. Let's not allow the instruction to compromise the adventure.
post #21 of 101
(A) Why not headquarter at or near Solitude? Si has been hard at work getting a meeting place near [not at] Solitude and maybe even a blessing from Solitude the Resort.

(B) Why not let each group/instructor go do their thing wherever they want? Let each group decide at the time of the intitial meeting. At the end of each clinic day, they can decide where to go the next day. If learning at Solitude gives them such heartburn, let them take the group to wherever. For myself, I'm happy staying put and focusing on learning, rather than traipsing around tasting resorts, which traipsing I can do later during the general meeting of the Bears - but I hope not too much traipsing.

(C) nolo, I went to Steamboat once and could have enjoyed staying there another week - didn't bother me a bit not to have other resorts close by to "sample". Each to their own, so let's not decide in advance that all clinic students will feel the same about this. For me, the less hassle and the more predictability the better when I'm trying to learn new skills. Later, when the clinic ends and the general gathering begins, I'll be more inclined to "sample", to an extent.

(D) As I'm sure E-Ski knows, even an "extreme" camp can be done at a smaller resort. The "X-Team" extreme camps have been held a different locations around the world to be available to a larger number of skiers. One of the locations was Bolton Valley Resort in Vermont. The DesLaurier brothers and company seemed to have no problem teaching useful extreme skills there.

(E) Instructors are always, or almost always, associated with a single ski area where they do their instruction. What's so different about this? If the meeting of the Bears and the clinic were at Steamboat - and I for one hope that someday it shall be - then the question of "resort sampling" wouldn't even be an issue.

(F) Can we hold off on discussion about multiple areas, let the leaders lead the way, and get the show on the road? A number of Bears are waiting for the other shoe to drop - they're waiting for the "where, when and how much". The sooner we get this nailed down, the more students can know if they will attend, and the more successful the clinic can be.

I now yield the floor to someone else, hopefully Bob Barnes and/or Tom Burch.

[ August 25, 2002, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: oboe ]
post #22 of 101
Thread Starter 
If the first day's ski activity isn't at Solitude for most everyone it makes no sense to use the Silver Fork Lodge as a base. Also, it won't be avaialble unless a number of people choose to book a room there.

My own feeling is that I would like to see all the groups ski at the same resort each day. We have a special opportunity to build on an already strong basis of our Epic community. I want to be able to learn from all the Epic skiers and it is much easier when we can choose to easily have lunch, apres ski, and other get togethers at one resort. Also, there are likely to be a number of times when people want to switch between groups and if they are spread out among different resorts opportunities will be very restricted.

I think that by the 3rd or 4th (if there is one) day, splitting up some may be more desirous and by then people would have found a home in a group they feel comfortable with and enjoy.

This is completely a personal preference and should only be considered as such. I can not say that anyone other participants will feel the same.
post #23 of 101
Heres my $.02 worth.
If the Canyons is willing I say lets do it there. It is a big area and can be confusing to get around at first but once you have a feel for the place it's great. I'll make a few phone calls and check things out from this end. As for who heads things up Bob Barnes would be fine with me Oh and ASc just moved the comany headquaters around the corner from me I'll drop by the main off and see what they have to say. I'll also call snow basin They should be more then happy to have a few skiers from across the country there.
post #24 of 101
Looks like a race between Solitude and The Canyons - who will bless us first?! Stay tuned!
post #25 of 101
I have a concern! Everyone is talking about bumps and steeps. No one is talking about the Lisas who will be attending that are pure intermediates. These folks are the ones we should focusing on. Moreover, these very same people will start to shy away from us, as they will assume that we don't care about them.

My focus, as an instructor is, first-timers through intermediate skiers. Give me a terminal wedger and he/she will be skiing parallel by noon!

As to areas. As long as we have Green and Blue runs that are 40-60 meters wide, I could care less where we have it. Most areas in the SLC area have plenty of Black runs. So what is the problem?

Let's stop the area squabble and make some hard and fast decisions.
post #26 of 101
What Rick H said.
post #27 of 101
Sorry to have side tripped this discussion. I've never skied Solitude or The Canyons, Brighton, Snowbasin, Park City, etc.

I was just thinking of what my friend at The Canyons said about his clients liking to do outings at other resorts...when there are so many.

Just tell me where to show up, and I'll shut up.
post #28 of 101
I believe that so many here want this clinic to be the first of many, and no doubt the EpicCamp will evolve over time. As it has turned out, this has become more than a web site - it really HAS become a community in which all share a passion for skiing, but in different ways and in different degrees. The wide diversity of interest, not to mention personalities, needs and wishes, and certainly including the wish for social exchange with or without relation to skiing, is one of the things that makes EpicSki a special community and more than just a special web site. To be inclusive, the wishes and needs of all must be considered, and so I particularly appreciate and respect the comments of Rick H and the gracious reply of nolo. This is a great place from which to move forward.
post #29 of 101
Unfortunately, I'm only showing up for the General Gathering, so this doesn't have any bearing on me, but in your planning for the Ski Academy, don't forget that Solitude is (at least according to their trail map last year) putting in two new lifts this summer -- a high-speed quad to replace the Moonbeam lift, and a fixed quad at the bottom of Honeycomb Canyon, thus eliminating that cursed slog out of there.
post #30 of 101
I posted this on a related thread, but I think it applies here. A camp like this works for ALL levels if organized well.

I think Bob B's concept for the workshop would be best. Rather than splitting the group into specialized areas of interest (moguls, carving, steeps, etc.) and having instructors doing their own thing, divide into workable-sized teams (say, 6 or so) by general ski ability. Each group would stay with the same coach (assuming compatibility).

After a preliminary meeting of all participants outlining the overall goals of the workshop (applicable to everyone) each group would then spend several days learning (and/or reinforcing) the FOUNDATIONS OF ALL GOOD SKIING (clearly defined and clarified in preliminary meetings among the group leaders to ensure consistency in what is worked on during the day). The goal would be to allow participants to then see how those foundations lend themselves to skiing varied terrain and fostering continued improvement in comfort level regardless of ability level.

The terrain skiied would differ according to the ability of each group, but the FOUNDATIONS, and drills illuminating these foundations, would be the same for all. Discussions in the evening could focus on how (or, indeed whether) the foundations being taught, absorbed and applied ARE the same for all levels and conditions, analysis of video of partipants, equipment/tech talks, etc. Everyone would be on the same page discusing what everyone worked on that day--different details depending on ability, but the same focuses and using the same drills and vocabulary.

After the official camp ends, those who wish could then go explore nearby areas and apply what we've learned!

What do you think?
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