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My New Skis - Cheating?

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 
I think so.

Just purchased a pair of Salomon Shoguns (99 mm waist) at a year end demo ski sale and started skiing them today.  Previously I had mostly been riding a pair of Atomic Snoop Daddy's (88 mm waist) with Freeride bindings.  Unfortunately daily use of the Freerides led to a broken binding (replaced under warranty) and so I thought to protect against the replacement cost of a new pair of Freerides I'd get a daily driver with an pure alpine setup.

It's clear I've entered yet another new era.  The Shoguns make many things easier.  Between the increase in width, ski stability, and rocker tip,  I can ski comfortably at increased speed in all sorts of snow (conditions today were quite variable with heavy powder, cut up powder, frozen crud, groomed runouts etc.) - I don't think I'd be considered a slow skier to begin with.  I also found that I could ski all sorts of terrain with much less effort.  With the stability of the Shoguns I am not thrown around and my balance is not challenged nearly as much as on my Snoop Daddy's.  The result is that I stay over my skis and therefore exert much less energy.  Between better positioning over my skis and the rocker tip, turn initiation (especially in steep chutes or tight trees) is noticeably easier which further contributes to better balance, efficiency, and increased performance.  Another thing that's easier is jumping.  I took my normal 10 or so jumps during the day (small, all less than 10 or 12 feet, although I went bigger on a couple of them than I ever had before) and didn't fall, hip check, or significantly bobble on landing (never has happened).  With the increased stability of the skis upon landing it was just plain easier to handle the speed from the jump and make the next turn (even when landing in crud).

Certainly there are some negatives to the Shoguns but in my case they are not the highest priorities.   Edge to edge quickness is obviously reduced.  For very short turns or bumps this will be a negative.  Also there is reduced edge grip (but not that much really).  These negatives are probably not enough to keep me off of these most days.

My other main skis are Head Supershape Magnums.  This year I skied them maybe 1 out of 4 days.  However, given the terrain and snow conditions at Schweitzer and my skiing preferences I preferred my Snoop Daddy's most days (even though we had a very low snow year).  Next year, I expect that the number of days on the SS Magnums will be even less with the Shoguns available.

While this may seem more like a ski review then a technique issue let me get to my question.  Being on these skis really does feel like cheating.  My balance and confidence are not challenged as much and they do not require as precise of movements as other skis I have skied.  So, will skiing these all the time make me lazy and less capable a skier (even while performance wise making me a better skier)?  I wonder, if it will become a more difficult transition to hop onto the SS Magnums?

While these questions are somewhat rhetorical I'm very interested to hear what people think.
post #2 of 15
 lazy and un capable nope, willing ever to go back? no why would you. we could still ride straight skis if we ever didnt want to cheat right? Also the old snoop daddy was an absolute chore to ski on the tail wouldnt realize ever and was damn scary to ski in trees. Staying in balance more sounds like a really good thing. 

basically its going to modernize you skills to a point you will never want to ride older skis again. IMO you didnt go modern enough the shogun is a very mild fat ski. If anyone says its cheating Id say they are dumb for not doing it themselve. Not a single person has been able to keep up for a whole day at an east coast resort while I have been on rockered skis. The new stuff makes it easier to challenge yourself in new way.

oh yeah BTW great freaking troll as well.
post #3 of 15
For my .02, you will just have more fun. 

For my other .02, I bet you decide the SS Magnums are a giant waste of your time on anything but true blue ice.

You should try a really "modern" design next ;) Under the right conditions, I still bust out laughing laughing when I am playing on Praxis skis, Pontoons, Kuros, etc. And even for generic all mountain use, I just do not see the point in slalom derived carvers. It is sort of like discussing horse drawn carriages as commuter vehicles. At least for me, if a ski is not derived from reverse/reverse "bones" - I just do not get it...
Edited by spindrift - 3/31/10 at 8:50pm
post #4 of 15
Thread Starter 

Josh. while I agree with you somewhat about the Snoop Daddy's, learning to ski effectively on them (including steep tight trees with very manky snow) has made me a better skier.

Also, why do you think this post is a troll (although I consider great freaking troll as a compliment!).

post #5 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Si View Post

Josh. while I agree with you somewhat about the Snoop Daddy's, learning to ski effectively on them (including steep tight trees with very manky snow) has made me a better skier.

Also, why do you think this post is a troll (although I consider great freaking troll as a compliment!).


learning to ski your snoop daddy is steep manky trees was about as fruitless as learning to ski them in a GS course.
post #6 of 15
My theory is to use the type of ski for where you're skiing and how you want to ski it. Using the right tool isn't cheating at all. Using wide skis in "heavy powder, cut up powder, frozen crud", etc is no different than choosing an SL ski to ski tight arcs on icy groomers. ...not much more to it really...
post #7 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post




learning to ski your snoop daddy is steep manky trees was about as fruitless as learning to ski them in a GS course.
Interesting comment.  I was thinking of trying the Master's racing program here (mostly to improve not to race).  Amongst the skis I have, I was debating whether I should bring some older Rossi racing slaloms or my Snoop Daddy's.  If I had done it, I'd have started with GS as I'm not interesting in purchasing the pads I'd neet to ski slalom.  For those of you that race, please ignore my ignorance on the subject.
post #8 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post

You should try a really "modern" design next ;) Under the right conditions, I still bust out laughing laughing when I am playing on Praxis skis, Pontoons, Kuros, etc. And even for generic all mountain use, I just do not see the point in slalom derived carvers. It is sort of like discussing horse drawn carriages as commuter vehicles. At least for me, if a ski is not derived from reverse/reverse "bones" - I just do not get it...
You have not convinced me yet.  The other day I was skiing 14" of new snow at Baker on my traditional camber Fischers.  As I skied the uncut I kept thinking about the Praxis (Praxiss? Praxi?) you lent me earlier this year.  My skis felt almost exactly the same and additionally they worked better in the crud that came later and the hard run-outs to the lift.

I'm sure there's something there, but I haven't found it yet.
post #9 of 15
I'm wondering what bindings you went with. Whatever they are, I expect the delta is way different from your Fritschis. That could explain some of what you feel.
post #10 of 15
Thread Starter 
Good Catch Epic,

There are Salomon demo bindings on the skis.  I think your point about the ramp angle is valid.  I actually modified the Freeride mounting to increase ramp by removing the plastic spacer under the toe piece last season.  I experimented first with heel lifts taped to the boot heel to determine how much ramp I wanted to add.  It turned out that with removal of the spacer I was pretty close.  The Freeride/Snoop Daddy's now have about the same ramp as other skis that I feel well balanced on.

I also considered moving the bindings forward but my ball of foot position is within 20 mm of the center of the running surface which works for me on my other skis.

While I previously had some question about the Snoop Daddy's being set up "optimally," after skiing on them for the majority of days this year I felt quite balanced on them.  The improved balance on the Shoguns I'm talking about was from the increased width and ski stability -  I think.  Skiing the Snoop Daddys around in cut up and crud at speed gives me lots of perturbations to deal with.  MUCH less so with the Shoguns.  Also the rocker tip seems to make turn initiation much easier in these conditions.  Of course on the groomed (of which I've only done a few runs with the Shoguns) it seems you can't draw the ski into the turn with a little forward pressure as well as a non-rockered ski but that's no a big issue for me.

So what do you think about skis like this being easy enough that you lose some precision in your skiing?

post #11 of 15
 I don't think you lose anything. I feel like I still need to be precise if I want to ski well on my big skis. I guess they'd let me get away with skiing sloppy, but I won't let myself ski sloppy on them. Good skiing is still good skiing. On Tuesday, I skied my S7s then my GS race skis, then back to my S7s. It only took a few turns on each for them to feel "normal" again.
post #12 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

 I don't think you lose anything. I feel like I still need to be precise if I want to ski well on my big skis. I guess they'd let me get away with skiing sloppy, but I won't let myself ski sloppy on them. Good skiing is still good skiing. On Tuesday, I skied my S7s then my GS race skis, then back to my S7s. It only took a few turns on each for them to feel "normal" again.

See, that's kind of the point of what I think Si was trying to get at (perhaps).

Those skis WOULD let you get sloppy on them and still get away with it.  If you weren't ALREADY a really good skier, would you KNOW that your skiing on them was sloppy? 

Would skiing that kind of super-easy ski help you BECOME a really good skier?

I'm not convinced they would based on what I see on our hill every day.
post #13 of 15
 I've seen plenty of people that ski like crap on SuperShapes.

Watching my 7 yo ski on her Gotamas, I'd say that they do give her some negative reinforcement if she ski poorly on them. Whatever the ski is the skier still has to make it perform. If I skied badly on my rocker skis they wouldn't preform the way I want them to - same as any other ski.
post #14 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

 I've seen plenty of people that ski like crap on SuperShapes.

Watching my 7 yo ski on her Gotamas, I'd say that they do give her some negative reinforcement if she ski poorly on them. Whatever the ski is the skier still has to make it perform. If I skied badly on my rocker skis they wouldn't preform the way I want them to - same as any other ski.

Amen. Of course ski companies don't want us to think that so keep it on the D-L.
post #15 of 15
 I couldn't sit this one out.

The Shogun is one of the best skis ever produced for riders willing to push it. People who find it "ok" haven't ridden it to it's potential. In response to Si's question, pushing yourself to become better will naturally feel easier with right equipment. I think that is anything but cheating. You are skiing faster, killing the crud and getting bigger airs, sounds like you are on the right track. I ski them as well 2cm forward with Schizos and can rip GS or SL turns, pound the crud and run the zipperline in the bumps. I'm not sure if you get in the tight trees but be prepared to be amazed they rip there as well. Fat is where is at on groomers (to get to the woods) and everywhere else. It takes a good skier to ski good and there is no getting around it.
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