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post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 
In observing skiers I often see very heavy finish of the turn. Where at the completion phase of the turn the are still holding on to the edges and the pressure. In my own skiing I often try to think of from the intiation to the apex as engaging the edges and from the apex to the new intiation disengaging the edges and managing the pressure. What are some thoughts on edge angle and pressure control through the phase of a turn? What works for you? What do you coach others to do? What have you observered? Lets use blue groomers for consistancy.Thanks, todo
post #2 of 18
Rythmn and Flow is one of those skill blending issues and seamless transition is my big focus....must be a racing thing. Skiers who a hung up, cling or park too long generally are too caught up in the moment, endorphin-wise to exit, or in a position from which they cannot achieve "neutral".
A coupla guys who know me will crack up at this one when they read about my "mothball turns"!
I just couldn't explain it any other way. In discussing the seamless flow from one turn to the next, I used the word sublimate. "What the hell is that?" "You know, like when something transitions from a solid to a gas bypassing the liquid phase...like mothballs!" Energy storage, energy release and transfer...or something like that.....Hey Physics Man! Help me with my obtuse imagery! Mind pictures, Man...thanks Mr. Wizard!
Promising post Todo!! Next?<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Robin (edited August 16, 2001).]</FONT>
post #3 of 18
I once had a student from Dalhardt Tx, who told me he had a "hitch-in-his-gitalong", I think he expressed the subject well for authentic western gibberish!(apology to Mel Brooks) I don't think he would have benefited from the mothball analogy either.<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Robin (edited August 16, 2001).]</FONT>
post #4 of 18
Good question. I use to think and teach the same kind of movement pattern you descibed for groomed blue cruisers, but I must admitt that I am a huge fan of laying arcs on groomers. This is a great tool to practice for all levels of skiing and to keep the progressoin of movements moving forward. I feel that you move into the turn in an "open" stance by engaging the edges, then guiding the skis thru the arc of the turn all the while adjusting the pressure thru the completion of the turn. At that point you release the edges and roll them into the next turn. This is much more effiseint than a gradual relaese of the edge, especially with the newer, shorter skis that are designed to turn on edge. Both ways work but I contend with the new equipment that staying on edge through out the turn lends its self to better responce and sets you up for success as you tip the hill up steeper and or increace the speed. Any thoughts?
post #5 of 18
Yeah, player...I thought you had forest service permitting to do...git back to work!
post #6 of 18
Todo. What you are describing sounds a lot like someone I know. Hmmmmm. let me think... Oh yeah. ME!

I've been fighting the "Heavy-Ending-to-Hucking-Your-Meat" move for quite awhile now, as Robin and Player will attest. I tend to get carried away and POP into every turn. Boy it REALLY shows up in short turns!

I think from a pressure control point of view, Part of the problem lies in hurrying through the completion phase of the turn and missing "neutral", as Robin has said. I literally jump right over it. I find that I can remedy it somewhat by taking my time and hanging on for "just one second longer". I have that in quotes because it really ends up being probably half a second! I do this by saving my extension for the end of my turn, rather than the beginning, and effectively "rationing it out" throughout the turn. If I waste all my extension in the first two meters of a 22 meter turn...POP!

Tell you what, though. (What?) The thing that really smooths out my release and pumps up my efficiency is this. NOT FACING DOWN THE HILL WITH MY UPPER TORSO. Even in short turns. By consciously trying to maintain a naturally square stance to my direction of travel, I can more easily work the ankle/knee/hip "kinetic chain" and keep my edges in the snow where they belong. Slicing through rather than bouncing off. It's good feeling when it happens. I wish it would happen more often.

Well there. I've said it. Now I have to wait for snow and go DO it. Good post there, Todo!

Spag's quote of the day:
"Excuse me while I... whip this out." (That's for you Robin!)
- Cleavon Little (Sheriff Bart)in "Blazing Saddles" - <FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Notorious Spag (edited August 16, 2001).]</FONT>
post #7 of 18
Mongo love Sheriff Bart....I'm withya Spag, tend to huck as well, just like to juice the crap out of the ski.
I like to (on a serious note) try to get mostly to a pressure neutral place, with a reserve on the range of motion. Pretty neutral on the rotary too, but quick over to edge, not hanging flat at all...just like uncle player!<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Robin (edited August 16, 2001).]</FONT>
post #8 of 18
The folks describing "problem" endings to turns here generally sound like candidates to recite Bob Barnes's mantra repeatedly: Ski a slow line fast. In other words, think of your turns as ways to change your direction rather than ways to alter your speed. That requires developing the patience to let a turn end through your steering and pressure control skills rather than through some sudden, violent move that gives you a skid to a check. And then have the patience to not hurry your entry into the next turn. Start it with steering and let it develop rather than trying to rush toward that violent turn end. Patience at turn entry is even more important than at turn finish.
post #9 of 18
Kneale, while I would agree with you about the people whom Bob would refer to a those employing "negative" movements (wherein the movements are often counter to the direction of travel)exhibited in push-off, checking or stemming, I think some definitely rush or do not "pass rapidly through" a neutral zone wherein athletic mobility is enhanced.....Bloodly long and somewhat convuluted sentence...pause, breathe. The people you describe also are "checking speed" as you stated.
Spag doesn't get to that nano second window where his stance is square, weight even, skis rapidly changing corresponding edges...he vaults thru and past....impatient pup!
One reason people "huck their meat" in transition is excessive counter...seems to be Spag's case if I remember....or it coulda been those gold lame pants! My problem is incomprehesible addiction to juicing...to playful...but I am in therapy, so there is hope.
post #10 of 18
Well here I am sticking my nose in where I probaly shouldn't.

You can see skiers who ski as described in this thread, crank/pop/crank/pop,(or any other style), skiing the same way the same line the same slope, over and over again, and what comes to my mind is "What else can you do?".

It sure looks, and must be, boring...

post #11 of 18
The thing is, Robin, that practice makes for habit. So if you "huck" for fun and seek "fun" frequently, you'll find yourself hurrying through your initiations unconsciously. Since we ski best when we let our bodies respond to sensory inputs rather than think our way through turns (as in habituated responses), the huckster approach becomes the natural first response. I'd expect from the ski career you've outlined in past postings that you're among the best skiers around, and this and my previous response are aimed more at the others who were describing speed control movements rather than direction control turns.
post #12 of 18
Right you are Kneale, it can be come habitual or grooved even in small doses as to be dismissed as negligible. Most do not notice. "Hucking" is a just a funny exageration. Spag says he "pops" though in reality, it is non perceptual.
Ott, trust me, we are not that one dimensional.
Spag, is a fine skier (should be examiner by now)but fun to tease. But there is no finish line to learning or refining skills. Just hope my "loops" don't open!
post #13 of 18
Hey let's face it. Short turns with a little juice are F-U-N. Can't help it. I simply enjoy that little edge-set rebound because it feels powerful. Though I'll admit that by the end of the day I don't feel very powerful anymore.

One thing I've done that helps is jump on a pair of snowblades and rip out some trenches under the chair. Then I ride over the tracks and look for spots where I was A-framing in the lower leg. (you can tell because the tracks get wide at control phase, and then narrow at transition.) Then I try to remedy that by actively tipping the inside blade throughout and eventually hold on to the turns until I'm finishing uphill on each turn. It's harder than watching the pigs eat your baby brother, but PATIENCE becomes a virtue!!!!

The blades really make you find neutral because there is no ski there to Juice.

Spag's quote of the day:
"These people are simple farmers. The salt of the Earth. You know... Morons."
- Gene Wilder in "Blazing Saddles" -
post #14 of 18
"Seamless" is the term I've been using for several years now. I heard it from a D-Team guy at a PSIA clinic in 88 or so. Maybe it is a racing thing Robin. A smooth flow of energy from one ski to another.(there's my weight transfer "thing"). It gives a smooth initiation that I believe is necessary for a clean completion.
post #15 of 18
I used to do those turns all the time Spag. Still do sometimes, playing around when I am not in clinic or uniform. Actually, sometimes in uniform. Hell, I turn around using the ol-fashioned "dogger" tip drag too.

I don't stay in that "style" anymore, but it's still fun. It is ineffecient, and kind of "old" style, now.

Hmmm, did you grow up skiing in da bumps, just like I did? Bumps were my holy grail, early on, and I still love them. Bumper style... I still like to sink down, put the skis flat, and shimmy. No gold pants tho... "wiggle ze skis like Edgar Gropiron." Harder to do on radical shapes tho...

POP off the snow sometimes... It's FUN to bend the crap out of the skis. Booooiiiingggg, sound (almost) of a Volant popping off the snow.

Did you used to have an overly flexed, forward-lean-itis kind of turn? I sure did. Funny how a certain focus on sking gives you "habits".

Geez, you know your comedy Notorious "Disco" One! Ever watch Jimmy Glitz?

Every time I release (or even pop) a turn, I go like this in my head: Nininina, Nananana... Just like Chevy Chase in Caddyshack. Unless the tunes are on. It's something to share with students, sometimes, when things are too serious, or scared, or "herky jerky". Make a noise, for timing, eh?

As I am originally from MN, I still consider myself qualified to use the "eh"? sound.

JUST so you'll feel better Spag... I actually (shuudddder) showed up for lineup at Breck in '94 with the white Salomon Disco Boots. And got crap for it too, just in case you and Robin were wondering.

Visit me here >>>SnoKarver

<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by SnoKarver (edited August 17, 2001).]</FONT>
post #16 of 18
Geez, you guys are good! Spag - what you said about not facing the upper torso down the hill is right on. Leading with the upper body is a common mistake I see with upper level skiers that really messes up their turns. I like to get them to identify the ' neutral phase ' , then hold onto it and feel the re-alignment . Then, instead of turning the upper body to change direction,get them to turn the feet first, keeping all parts moving together. Another confusing thing is extension for edge release, or flexion for release? But if you can tip your ankles to flatten the skis( neutral) during any phase of the turn, you know you are centered. Opens up a whole new world.
post #17 of 18
SnoKarver. You got it there, fruitcake! Bumpin' ruled for a long time. it still does. My Exam scores are always high in that area. (works out well 'cuz they're low everywhere else!) I definitely have my days where I Play with the Roger Rabbit hoppity hop. It's fun. What can I say. My "ski instructor" turns tend to be a lot smoother. Sometimes I go a little far though. I got busted in Durango last year for being too tentative in my Trainer's Exam. Failed. Oh well.

Never watched Jimmy Glitz, but there's a whole treasure trove of obscure movie quotes in my head. I'm kind of a big loser that way, but I have a feeling the people of Earth will need this information some day!

Forward-lean-itis? Yes. But it's now something I only do on purpose. I'm working on riding the sweet spot most of the time. Shaped Skis are pretty cool that way.

South Dakota (or at least in the Black Hills) doesn't end questions with "eh?". But we do end exclamations with "huh" and begin general statements with "yah". Weird dialect I guess. At least I don't use words like "ah-ight" and "useta-could". I'll admit that the word "sump'n" (something) shows up quite a bit!

Spag's quote of the afternoon:
"Big Mac's a Big Mac. Only they say 'Le Big Mac'."
- John Travolta in "Pulp Fiction" -
post #18 of 18
Thread Starter 
Go away for a while and come back to some very good responses, Thanks. I think everyone touched on some great points, like our turns for direction change and speed mangement NOT for slowing down. The idea of a disciplined upper-body NOT static to help allow the legs to create the release and steering is also key as someone else said. A couple things I try to do 1. I draw a line down the hill and make some smedium size turns using the line as the center for turn transition and try to cross the line on flat skis! Very diffucult to do but when I go back to skiing it tends to smooth out my transition and I stop holding on to the turn so no chatter. Someone also mentioned a great exercise very similiar about skiing through a neutral phase almost a pause there to feel it (then take the pause out) 1 ski sking (if done right) is also very effective on learning to tip at the top of the turn so you don't need to hold on at the end of it. Being able to steer the ski up the hill while rolling the ski to less edge I have found to be very difficult but what I believe is the answer for smooth flowing turns with no heavy phase and chatter at the end of the turn. If anyone has any other ideas on how to accompish this I would be interested! Alot of people talk about getting more at the top of the turn, but I need more HOWS. Thanks everyone todo
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