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stepped on binding while skiing in stacked position

post #1 of 26
Thread Starter 
Hi everyone, I found this site a while ago and found many of the threads really useful. I'm a recreational skiier but I'd like to look good on the trails.

Yesterday I was skiing the heavy spring slush in Eastern PA. I was skiing with my skis close together. And although the bumps were made of slush I was having a good time pretending they were real moguls.

However, disaster struck when I hit a bump and my skis were not level for a brief moment. Must not have been prallel either for I had managed to step on one of the bindings. I was really surprised that the ski came off. But unlike other times the binding was neatly down.

I know I have poor technique but is there a trick in the book to ensure that I don't step on bindings?
post #2 of 26
 Don't ski with your feet so close together.
post #3 of 26
Thread Starter 
But isn't that necessary for skiing moguls?
post #4 of 26
 No it's not.  You might also try putting you skis a bit more on edge and maintaining better pressure on them so they don't cross or diverge.  Without seeing you ski it's hard to know exactly what's going on with you.  Pressure management through flexion/extension is important in dynamic skiing.  Use your legs like shock absorbers and keep your upper body relatively level as you move through your turn.  The other issue a lot of skiers have is with simultaneous release and re-engagement of their edges.  The essence of a parallel turn is both feet doing the same thing at the same time.
post #5 of 26
Thread Starter 
I'm sorry I don't have a video of it. It happened only once all day. It was rather bumpy. So I was slightly airbourne at every turn. Not as much as I'd be on real moguls but enough to find it fun. I felt it would be a good way to practice skiing in a stacked position. I got the idea from this video on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWSJtHNVxEI. He has his feet pretty close together though. Of course the big difference is that this guy knows what he's doing. I don't.
Edited by edgemore - 3/30/10 at 8:36am
post #6 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

 No it's not.  You might also try putting you skis a bit more on edge and maintaining better pressure on them so they don't cross or diverge.  Without seeing you ski it's hard to know exactly what's going on with you.  Pressure management through flexion/extension is important in dynamic skiing.  Use your legs like shock absorbers and keep your upper body relatively level as you move through your turn.  The other issue a lot of skiers have is with simultaneous release and re-engagement of their edges.  The essence of a parallel turn is both feet doing the same thing at the same time.

actually no matter the line the closer you can keep your feet together WITH OUT TOUCHING is going to be the most efficient you can ski the bumps. there is a huge difference between a close but open stance that allow femur rotation and high edge angle, and stance with feet touching that locks out the hips and makes it impossible to get any edge angle.

to edgemore first your post is full of some weird things. slush bumps are real moguls and quite fun as well.I will say that its more efficient and easy to ski moguls with a tight but never touching stance but you dont "need" a closer stance.  TPJ had something right you shouldnt be getting bounced and you should be skiing though both of your feet to ensure that one legs doesnt get bounced while the other is still on the ground causing you to step on your binding.
post #7 of 26
 For the record I'm not advocating a wide stance in the moguls, or anywhere for that matter.   I merely meant that if you are skiing with your feet so close together that you are releasing your bindings by stepping on the heel piece, then your feet are likely too close together.  Bushwhacker is right about the narrow, but not touching stance in bumps.  I will say that I rarely use high edge angles in the bumps and prefer a flatter ski there.  On groomers I'll widen my stance a bit more and use more edge.     
post #8 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post




actually no matter the line the closer you can keep your feet together WITH OUT TOUCHING is going to be the most efficient you can ski the bumps. there is a huge difference between a close but open stance that allow femur rotation and high edge angle, and stance with feet touching that locks out the hips and makes it impossible to get any edge angle.

to edgemore first your post is full of some weird things. slush bumps are real moguls and quite fun as well.I will say that its more efficient and easy to ski moguls with a tight but never touching stance but you dont "need" a closer stance.  TPJ had something right you shouldnt be getting bounced and you should be skiing though both of your feet to ensure that one legs doesnt get bounced while the other is still on the ground causing you to step on your binding.

 

Narrow stance with high edge angles in the bumps?  Good luck.
post #9 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrudBuster View Post




Narrow stance with high edge angles in the bumps?  Good luck.
 

I am just saying a narrow but open stance allows the high edge angles you will need, where as a totally closed stance doesnt allow any bit of a higher edge angle.
post #10 of 26
Thread Starter 
TPJ,BWPA, Thanks.

BWPA, These slush bumps were caused by other skiers scaping the groomed slush into bumps. They weren't like real moguls. The real mogul slope had much bigger I-dare-not-get-close-to-yet bumps.

I was trying to keep my skis close and work them together but I was still getting bounced around a bit. Perhaps more practice might help.
post #11 of 26
You cannot step on a binding if your skis remain parallel. You obviously did not do that, so that is your problem. It takes time to get there however.
post #12 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by edgemore View Post

But unlike other times the binding was neatly down.
 

Edge,

If the heel piece of your binding remained in the down position, it's highly likely that your toe piece released. At normal DIN settings, it's very difficult to eject yourself from your skis and reset the heel piece back down while moving (but it is possible). It's not that difficult for mogul skiers who have "safe" DIN settings to be able to knock their skis off in the bumps causing falls that otherwise would not have happened. If this happens often enough, you need to make the tradeoff between preventing injury during "normal" falls (keeping your DIN setting at recommended levels) and preventing injury from falls resulting from "aggressive" skiing (raising your DIN). A factor to consider when making that tradeoff is that highly skilled skiers CAN successfully ski moguls at "lowered" DIN settings.

Many times over the years I've inadvertently popped heel pieces in the bumps due to force of impact (vs stepping on the heel piece). A few times I've been able to immediately click back in and continue the run unabated. I consider most of these types of events to be avoidable through improved skills, but I also choose to accept that more of these events will occur because I have not raised my DIN settings.
post #13 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB View Post

You cannot step on a binding if your skis remain parallel. You obviously did not do that, so that is your problem. It takes time to get there however.


My problem - no doubt. What do I do so it doesn't happen again - is my question.
post #14 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post




Edge,

If the heel piece of your binding remained in the down position, it's highly likely that your toe piece released. At normal DIN settings, it's very difficult to eject yourself from your skis and reset the heel piece back down while moving (but it is possible). It's not that difficult for mogul skiers who have "safe" DIN settings to be able to knock their skis off in the bumps causing falls that otherwise would not have happened. If this happens often enough, you need to make the tradeoff between preventing injury during "normal" falls (keeping your DIN setting at recommended levels) and preventing injury from falls resulting from "aggressive" skiing (raising your DIN). A factor to consider when making that tradeoff is that highly skilled skiers CAN successfully ski moguls at "lowered" DIN settings.

Many times over the years I've inadvertently popped heel pieces in the bumps due to force of impact (vs stepping on the heel piece). A few times I've been able to immediately click back in and continue the run unabated. I consider most of these types of events to be avoidable through improved skills, but I also choose to accept that more of these events will occur because I have not raised my DIN settings.

 


With my level of inexperience, I don't want to take the chance of a more aggressive DIN setting. Although that may have been what happened. Like I said before it just happened that one time all day. So I guess more practice for now until I get better. Thanks.
post #15 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post




Edge,

If the heel piece of your binding remained in the down position, it's highly likely that your toe piece released. At normal DIN settings, it's very difficult to eject yourself from your skis and reset the heel piece back down while moving (but it is possible). It's not that difficult for mogul skiers who have "safe" DIN settings to be able to knock their skis off in the bumps causing falls that otherwise would not have happened. If this happens often enough, you need to make the tradeoff between preventing injury during "normal" falls (keeping your DIN setting at recommended levels) and preventing injury from falls resulting from "aggressive" skiing (raising your DIN). A factor to consider when making that tradeoff is that highly skilled skiers CAN successfully ski moguls at "lowered" DIN settings.

Many times over the years I've inadvertently popped heel pieces in the bumps due to force of impact (vs stepping on the heel piece). A few times I've been able to immediately click back in and continue the run unabated. I consider most of these types of events to be avoidable through improved skills, but I also choose to accept that more of these events will occur because I have not raised my DIN settings.
 

well or just get look turn tables and blissfully run them at LOW DINs.

I can ski Looks aggressively anywhere set at 9, where as solly 9-16s, and Marker Royal series binding I have to run at 11 with sometimes heels at 13 to keep the damn things from coming off. Marker replaced the biometric ejector toe piece with a heel piece thats nearly as bad.
post #16 of 26
edgemore: What do I do so it doesn't happen again - is my question

Frankly, keeping your skis parallel will do it. A better way to look at it is to keep both feet/skis working together. It sounds easy on paper, but it takes a long time to get there, especialy in bumps.
post #17 of 26
My vote is you just caught a a tip (or both tips) on a heavier clump of snow and the skis twisted off.  Check you binding release function (how easy is it to twist out).  Then endeavor not to put that type of torque on your skis. Tip more, do less sideways skiing.
post #18 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

 I will say that I rarely use high edge angles in the bumps and prefer a flatter ski there.  On groomers I'll widen my stance a bit more and use more edge.     

Why then are you suggesting edgemore use more edge in the bumps? ;)


Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

 No it's not.  You might also try putting you skis a bit more on edge...



Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post


I am just saying a narrow but open stance allows the high edge angles you will need, where as a totally closed stance doesnt allow any bit of a higher edge angle.

Do you really need high edge angles in bumps? Don't want to put words in your mouth, but would you accept this slight edit? 

"I am just saying a narrow but open stance allows the edge angles you will need, where as a totally closed stance doesnt allow any bit of a higher edge angle."

Sorry for splitting hairs, generally agree with the posts from both of you. TPJ, I also prefer a narrower stance and flatter skis in the bumps than when I'm trying to carve turns, though it is certainly possible that edgemore had his skis too close together and not high enough on edge.

Edgemore, one thing that might help is thinking about keeping both skis at the same edge angle. That will help keep skis from crossing. 

Another thing is trying to make round shaped turns. A quick pivot could cause the skis to cross. You mention that you like to get airborne off of each bump. Make sure you don't turn too much in the air and come down sideways. Keep your skis pointed in the direction they are traveling by steering them through the turn. 

I agree with therusty, that it was likely your toe piece that released, probably not the result of crossed skis anyway, and the season's over in PA, but some things to think about next time you're on snow if you remember.
post #19 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post

...

Another thing is trying to make round shaped turns. A quick pivot could cause the skis to cross. You mention that you like to get airborne off of each bump. Make sure you don't turn too much in the air and come down sideways. Keep your skis pointed in the direction they are traveling by steering them through the turn. 

...
 


This is something I certainly wasn't doing. I was turning in the air. Next time I'll try keep the turning on the ground. Thanks.
post #20 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

My vote is you just caught a a tip (or both tips) on a heavier clump of snow and the skis twisted off.  Check you binding release function (how easy is it to twist out).  Then endeavor not to put that type of torque on your skis. Tip more, do less sideways skiing.
 


That sound possible. I'll have to concentrate on that too. Thanks.
post #21 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post




Why then are you suggesting edgemore use more edge in the bumps? ;)






Do you really need high edge angles in bumps? Don't want to put words in your mouth, but would you accept this slight edit? 

"I am just saying a narrow but open stance allows the edge angles you will need, where as a totally closed stance doesnt allow any bit of a higher edge angle."

Sorry for splitting hairs, generally agree with the posts from both of you. TPJ, I also prefer a narrower stance and flatter skis in the bumps than when I'm trying to carve turns, though it is certainly possible that edgemore had his skis too close together and not high enough on edge.

Edgemore, one thing that might help is thinking about keeping both skis at the same edge angle. That will help keep skis from crossing. 

Another thing is trying to make round shaped turns. A quick pivot could cause the skis to cross. You mention that you like to get airborne off of each bump. Make sure you don't turn too much in the air and come down sideways. Keep your skis pointed in the direction they are traveling by steering them through the turn. 

I agree with therusty, that it was likely your toe piece that released, probably not the result of crossed skis anyway, and the season's over in PA, but some things to think about next time you're on snow if you remember.



 

you never need anything. but having slightly open stance that is narrow(ie maybe 4-6 inches between skis) allow for the most dynamic bump skiing IMO.
post #22 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post

I am just saying a narrow but open stance allows the high edge angles you will need, where as a totally closed stance doesnt allow any bit of a higher edge angle.

"You never need anything." 

High edge angles aren't needed in bumps, but are they desirable?

How high can your edge angles be if your feet are only 4 inches apart? What I think of as high edge angles require feet to be farther apart than that. Is putting edges up on a high angle something you teach aspiring bump skiers?

I didn't think you meant to say high edge angles are needed for bump skiing, but that's what you did say. Now you say nothing is ever needed. OK, whatever... 
post #23 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post




"You never need anything." 

High edge angles aren't needed in bumps, but are they desirable?

How high can your edge angles be if your feet are only 4 inches apart? What I think of as high edge angles require feet to be farther apart than that. Is putting edges up on a high angle something you teach aspiring bump skiers?

I didn't think you meant to say high edge angles are needed for bump skiing, but that's what you did say. Now you say nothing is ever needed. OK, whatever... 

nope I never teach newby bump skiers to be on edge in fact I get them to skid more but.....
 high edge angle bump skiing is something I would teach my peers and students who are solidly in the level 8-9 range. you cant do this with your feet "locked together" Its poor skiing anyway you look at it to lock you feet together. that why I am saying there is a huge difference between a close but open stance and locked together stance. Basic lower edge angle turns are great for learning but there is always skills to be blended in every aspect of skiing and once you can feather the edge well enough at the start and end of the turn you can get some really high edge angles right in the fall line bump skiing. 

I would myself if I wasnt able to use high for bump sking edge angles would either have to

a. slow down
b. or take a more direct more jarring line

if you want to see what i am speaking of check out the video I posted in this forum.. I do practice what I preach in all cases.
post #24 of 26
 Thanks for the clarification. If you thought I was arguing for a closed (vs. close) stance, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.
post #25 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post

 Thanks for the clarification. If you thought I was arguing for a closed (vs. close) stance, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

nah I thought you just want me to be clear. we should get rusty to freeze frame some of the angle in the video I just posted.
post #26 of 26
Damn it BWPA, I just closed up all the crap to do all that. Beer?

bwpa5.jpg

bwpa4.jpg

bwpa6.jpg

You can't Euro carve in the bumps. I've tried. It wasn't pretty. It is possible to ski bumps well on a monoski. Have fun with the pics.
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