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In Handles or Out of Handles

post #1 of 12
Thread Starter 
I know there has been a lot discussions about in the handles or out of the handles. 

How about in the handles and in the sled.   Note rear foot can be used to help turn and slow toboggan.  Used for load and go rapid transport situations.  Not approved by NSP or anyone else for that matter. 

n1052435371_30364584_1198163.jpg
post #2 of 12

Dana Jordan and the great foplks at Cascade are not crazy about us running a loaded sled outside the handles.  I'm pretty sure he would not sign off on this approach either.  Although it make taking the empty to an accident a little quicker, especially on something like Annapurna or Claire's at Hunter, LOL.

post #3 of 12

I'm having trouble finding his braking edge,I'd like to see him make a transition from this position LOL.

post #4 of 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by N3066Z View Post

Dana Jordan and the great foplks at Cascade are not crazy about us running a loaded sled outside the handles.  I'm pretty sure he would not sign off on this approach either.  Although it make taking the empty to an accident a little quicker, especially on something like Annapurna or Claire's at Hunter, LOL.



Joke picture aside...for real about cascade not liking outside the handles loaded toboggan running??  Not even in bumps and trees?  Our protocol is in the handles on groomers, out in moguls...I thought that was pretty common.

post #5 of 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam View Post



Joke picture aside...for real about cascade not liking outside the handles loaded toboggan running??  Not even in bumps and trees?  Our protocol is in the handles on groomers, out in moguls...I thought that was pretty common.



can you even run a toboggan down moguls in the handles? wouldn't want to be that patient

 

post #6 of 12

Yeah if you don't mind being lifted off the ground every time you crest a mogul!  I actually saw that happen to a trainee who was inside the handles, lifted and body slammed...not pretty!

post #7 of 12

I am having trouble myself thinking how to get down smoothly inside the handles through the moguls. I am pretty sure the entire East coast has the same teaching methods, not sure about out West. It would be interesting to see if they have a different approach. IMO the patient goes in the troughs and the operator deals with everything left over. Anyone else want to chime in?

post #8 of 12

Moguls: Move back inside/between the handles and maybe put your back or a hand on the crossbar, avoid mogul crests and as stated above stay in the troughs.  

 

Great picture, 'skills.  

post #9 of 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lee View Post

Moguls: Move back inside/between the handles and maybe put your back or a hand on the crossbar, avoid mogul crests and as stated above stay in the troughs.  

 

Great picture, 'skills.  



Skiing,sideslipping, or snowplowing?

 

post #10 of 12

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lee View Post

Moguls: Move back inside/between the handles and maybe put your back or a hand on the crossbar, avoid mogul crests and as stated above stay in the troughs.  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daveski7 View Post

Skiing,sideslipping, or snowplowing?

 

Sideslipping/falling leaf.  If you're skiing or snowplowing, it's not that steep and probably isn't a problem skiing in the handles.  Right?  But it should be noted that I'm always on tele gear so snowplowing can be a little treacherous with a sled on steep terrain - think over-the-handlebars.  biggrin.gif
 

 

post #11 of 12

Even when you are outside the handles you run the toboggan down the trough, and slow it by hitting the front face of the mogul, similar to skiing moguls with the zipper technique. I dont see how the patroller would be able to control everything unless the slope is mild. Oh well, i like running outside the handles, i think i shall stay there

post #12 of 12

FYI, Here is the official position paper from Cascade.  The nice thing about Dana is that he is a patroller, so he knows what we go through.  Although in the east we have been teaching outside the handles for better than 20 years+, as another method to achieve the objective, along with inside the handles.
 
 
 
POSITION PAPER RUNNING A TOBOGGAN INSIDE OR OUTSIDE THE HANDLES
 

POSITION PAPER

RUNNING A TOBOGGAN INSIDE OR OUTSIDE THE HANDLES

Cascade Toboggan Rescue Equipment Company does not have an official position on this subject. As far as operational guidelines go – we refer to the NSP transportation manual: We had significant input in its development. In terms of running inside or outside of the handles, the toboggan will perform equally well either way. Just make sure you are working smartly, safely and following area protocol.

ON ANOTHER NOTE: This seems to be a hotly contested issue during which we often seem to be misquoted. It is not that we support one method or another, it is and always has been a question of safety. Because of the wide variety of techniques being practiced and the differing ability levels of those handling toboggans we cannot mandate from a corporate perspective a particular methodology. We leave that to each individual area, their patrol leadership and the NSP. As a patroller (and toboggan builder) however, I can offer some insights into toboggan mechanics.

When traveling downhill with a toboggan, either thru moguls or otherwise, the toboggan should be behind you where you have the best opportunity to control it. Sounds logical? Albeit that at times it may nearly parallel your course, in general it should be moving in a forward direction (the nose of the toboggan moving forward) and downhill. Your primary control surfaces as a patroller managing a toboggan downhill are your skis or your snowboard. Further, as the toboggan moves forward and downhill, you can impact how much pressure you have available for edging by either raising the nose of the toboggan or pushing down on the handles. Raising the toboggan provides more pressure on your skis (ie, you and the toboggan and patient) and pushing down on the handles removes pressure from your skis. If you are outside the handles, you may be downhill from the toboggan, but are no longer directly in front of the toboggan and have lost the ability to add pressure to your primary control surfaces as needed. This does not even address the proper use of a chain brake (see below).

On another note, if you fall while in the handles, you will stand a better chance of being (run over), but more importantly able to stop the toboggan or assist your

1808 Industrial Drive, Sandpoint, ID 83864 Phone: (208) 263-2484 Fax: (208) 255-7460

tail roper (if you have one) in getting the toboggan stopped. Falling inside the handles also gives you the opportunity to use the handles to keep from completely going down. If you are outside the handles and fall and manage to continue hanging on, you will likely be drug along providing little stopping power. Having said this, there are always exceptions to the rule, and each patroller is responsible for making situational decisions (much like a pilot has final authority).

A WORD ON CHAIN BRAKE USE: Increasingly the use of the chain brake has become a crutch for some patrollers. The primary control surface for managing a toboggan – loaded or otherwise are your skis or snowboard. If the hill is steep, deploy the brake to take some of the heat off of your legs. Cranking down (putting all your weight on the ends of the handles) on the handles or putting more of your weight on the handles to increase your braking power only does bad things after a certain point. First it takes weight off of your primary control surfaces making it more difficult to manage the toboggan, second, it puts unnecessary strain on the pivot point of the toboggan and the handles without accomplishing anything. If you are on a hill where you can’t control the toboggan in the fall line (Model 100), then get out of the fall line! Properly run a Model 100 will easily traverse just about anything and does not always have to be pointed straight down the hill.

A word about me. I subscribe to a philosophy of working smarter, not harder. If I have to haul in somebody from a long way out, I want to make sure I am not worn out when I get there. Technique is the only solution to this problem. Sure, lots of young, athletic patrollers can muscle their way down most anything in any position. I shoot for the safest, easiest way to pull this off and live to ski another day.

As always, we welcome any input from others and sincerely hope this helps.

President

For more information or commentary:

Dana A. Jordan (djordan@cascadetoboggan.com)

Cascade Toboggan Rescue Equipment Company

1808 Industrial Drive

Sandpoint, ID 83864

Phone: (208) 263-2484 Fax: (208) 255-7460

1808 Industrial Drive, Sandpoint, ID 83864 Phone: (208) 263-2484 Fax: (208) 255-7460

 

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