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Excersive or drill to further enhance femore rotation needed.

post #1 of 17
Thread Starter 
Hi all!

Although I have quite a bit of slope time this season, I never
saw myself skiing and yesterday, I freind of mine took a few pics
of me carving.

Though I like my tracks and the carving sensation, looking at the pics
showed that, even though my shoulders have a great fall line orientation,
my pelvic bone is kinda half way between my shoulders and my skis.

I would like to further concentrated on femur rotation to better
my pelvis orientation towards the fall line.

Any ideas and/or excersises much apprecated!

MG
post #2 of 17
Pivot Slips

Here's one you can do indoors:
Lay on your back. Pull one knee up to your chest and hold the leg there with both hands behind the knee. Raise the other leg up vertically. Rotate the leg right and left through the full range of motion. To increase the range the motion use this a regular exercise and pause for 5 seconds at the end of the range of rotation. Experiment with focusing on trying to keep the knees vertically over the hips, using knee movement to "drive" the rotation, using foot movement to drive the rotation and using neither. Experiment with doing this with the raised leg kept as straight as possible and with the knee bent.
post #3 of 17
Having the pelvis oriented between the feet and the shoulders is not inefficient; in fact it is expected. Keeping the pelvis static to the fall line is at one end of the spectrum, as in the pivot slips. Dynamic parallel (carved) turns do not require that level of femoral rotation. Your focus on carved turns should be more that your inside rotates enough to tip the inside ski on edge to match the outside leg edge angles.
post #4 of 17
Thread Starter 
Hi iWill!

I would like to reduce my carving radius (using corresponding skis)
and also start with the bumbs.

One thing I notice about good bump skiers is a very static
upper body, starting at the hips. I have trouble finding exercises
to accentuate this and also help me learn what it is supposed to feel like.

Rusty: Okay! I see what you mean! I have a lot of work to do!
Do you have a ski exercise that I can bring to the slope as well?
I am thinking bracage where you dislocate the skis from the fall line
in brisk moments, but am looking for suggestions...
post #5 of 17
Bracage and pivot slips appear to me to be the same thing, but someone else can correct me if I'm wrong about that. As you do those, focus on keeping the boots in a perpendicular plane to the fall line. That is the essence of a full femoral rotation turn. Another drill that can emphasize that is to grasp your poles mid shaft, place them at your hips then focus on keeping both pole tips pointed down the fall line.
post #6 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterGoa View Post

Rusty: Okay! I see what you mean! I have a lot of work to do!
Do you have a ski exercise that I can bring to the slope as well?
 

Pivot slips!
post #7 of 17
Thread Starter 
Haha, OK, I though pivot slips were the specific name of the exercise!

Thank you both, I have to go and practice now!

MG
post #8 of 17
Try some tele skiing with instruction.  Learning to weight both skis equally while doing sideslips in a tele position gave me a pivot slip breakthrough this season.  I've always been able to do passable pivot slips, but they've gotten a lot better lately.
post #9 of 17
Literal interpretations of the advice to keep the pelvis facing downhill often leads to more problems than it solves. Perhaps a more common sense approach would be to discuss why we would suggest keeping the pelvis facing down the hill. Upper and lower body seperation is the outcome we're seeking. Generally it's offered as a cure for excessive whole body rotary movements. If your pelvis turns away from the fall line a bit but your legs are turning in the hip sockets, good. If your forcing your body into a contrived position by exaggerating the pelvis down the hill idea, stop it.
Added in edit mode: Functionally appropriate stances may feel different but rarely include contrived positions. Al that does is increases the potential for injury. I know it sounds like a commercial but hire a coach to work with you on developing better leg steering skills.
post #10 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Literal interpretations of the advice to keep the pelvis facing downhill often leads to more problems than it solves. Perhaps a more common sense approach would be to discuss why we would suggest keeping the pelvis facing down the hill. Upper and lower body seperation is the outcome we're seeking as a cure for excessive whole body rotary movements. If your pelvis turns away from the fall line a bit but your legs are turning in the hip sockets, good. If your forcing your body into a contrived position by exaggerating the pelvis down the hill idea, stop it.

agreeded, at the limits of pivot slips(or short turns we need some hip rotary movement to make it happen.
post #11 of 17
Can you show us the photos you referred to?

You mention that mogul skier's have a static upper body. I would say they have an upper body that is separated from the lower body; not static which implies no movement. Their upper body is always in motion to manage balance.

Hips are the interface between upper and lower body, so they will reflect the position of and be influenced by the actions and movements both above and below.

Tighter turns require more separation between the upper and lower body, not necessarily hips that are absolutely square to the shoulders. The position of the body is absolutely individual and you should be results oriented.

I like the exercises suggested to work your femur rotation.
post #12 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post

Try some tele skiing with instruction.  Learning to weight both skis equally while doing sideslips in a tele position gave me a pivot slip breakthrough this season.  I've always been able to do passable pivot slips, but they've gotten a lot better lately.


...but do you rotate your femur in a tele stance? (in reference to the OP)  Weighting of the uphill ski is important aspect in pivot slips that is often ignored, but you don't need tele gear to stress that. 

There's nothing wrong with some hip rotation as long as the feet turn first.  If you did pivot slips with absolutely no hip rotation, your skis would run into each other.

As for fall line bumps, most people don't realize you can have rotary separation at the knees.  (I can hear all the PSIA instructors grimacing.)  Since you guys are all sitting down, try turning your feet (with your knee bent at 90 degrees to your femur).  Did your femur rotate?  If you have enough time to worry about where the separation is happening, you aren't going fast enough.  When you go down bumps fast enough, you'll use everything you got (ankle, knees, hip socket, lower back).

-Sundown-
 

post #13 of 17
It depends on how you telemark. If you tele old school with arm swinging and tail sliding, no. You typically end up rotated (not countered). New school tele is very similar to alpine except that there is more pressure on the inside ski since it needs the weight to track as the boot is pretty ineffective when it is heel up. The weight transfer to the inside/uphill ski is done by moving the hips aft so the COM is somewhere between the leading heel and trailing toe.
post #14 of 17

Apologize for threadjacking, but lack of femur rotation in a tele turn has to do with stance.  If you get into a full tele stance (regardless of the type of skis), rotating at the femur doesn't work.  Try it right now.  One femur is vertical to the ground while the other is parallel to the ground.  Femur rotation works if the stance is more upright (closer to alpine), but if you're going to ski like that, you might as well put the alpine gear on.  In either case, tele skiing involves the hips much more than alpine, and that is what the OP was trying to reduce.

As for the OP, try some hop turns as well as pivot slips.  For a simpler exercise, just start out by doing hockey stops while facing downhill.

-Sundown-

post #15 of 17
Please send a picture.  I'm dieing to see the full tele stance you speak of where one femur is vertical and the other is parallel to the ground.  Do you tele?  Doesn't seem like it...  Anyway the femurs should be able to rotate just fine in a functional tele stance.  I would also tend to disagree about tele skiing involving the hips much more than alpine.  While it is possible to have the trailing tib/fib parallel to the ground, IMO that is not a functional tele stance as you can't properly pressure the inside foot when it is that far behind.  I see it all the time and consider that to be a fakamark position.  The more upright tele position is stronger and offers more technical and tactical options than the extreme low position.  Tele is fundamentally different from from alpine skiing so there is no need to just go and put on some alpine gear unless you can't understand the difference or you just don't feel like going Nord.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundown View Post

Apologize for threadjacking, but lack of femur rotation in a tele turn has to do with stance.  If you get into a full tele stance (regardless of the type of skis), rotating at the femur doesn't work.  Try it right now.  One femur is vertical to the ground while the other is parallel to the ground.  Femur rotation works if the stance is more upright (closer to alpine), but if you're going to ski like that, you might as well put the alpine gear on.  In either case, tele skiing involves the hips much more than alpine, and that is what the OP was trying to reduce.

As for the OP, try some hop turns as well as pivot slips.  For a simpler exercise, just start out by doing hockey stops while facing downhill.

-Sundown-

post #16 of 17
I'll start another thread on this subject this weekend since it pertains to my next goal (tele Level 2).  All I have to say for the moment is that it's funny how tele skiers with a low stance consider a tall stance fake telemarking and vice versa.  Try rotating your femurs in a low stance.  It doesn't work.  I can tele in either a tall stance or a low stance.  When I teach tele, I ask the student which method they would like to learn.  So far, 100% of them asked to learn the low stance even though I pointed out that it's technically incorrect.  In the end, it's about customer satisfaction.  (But I totally agree that the more upright position offers more tactical options and less likelihood of bashing your knee into the skis.)

Back to the original point, tele skiing isn't a good way to teach someone how to rotate the femur on alpine gear.  As you pointed out, tele and alpine are fundamentally different.

-Sundown-
post #17 of 17
 We should start a new thread...  I would say say that a tall stance can also be fakamark.  IMO the difference lies with bending the outside knee to allow pressure to develop on the inside foot.   A functional stance can be high or low depending on where the COM is and where and how the pressure is applied.  I have had a tendency to ski low in the past.  Skiing in the middle allows more flexion/extension options and is therefore better IMO.

I agree with you about the threadjacking and wouldn't advocate tele to facilitate femur rotation in an alpine skier.  Although the upper/lower body separation is more pronounced in telemark.  I advocate the use of anticipation in both alpine and telemark skiing.  In telemark skiing I use more and would almost call it counter. 
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