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Photo sequences a la Ron LeMaster - feel free to comment, share your thoughts and/or analyse :)

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 
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post #2 of 20
Nice images, as usual for Ron. Good skiing. Pretty colors. Nice weather. Rotary, edging, & pressure control. Transitions. Where'd he get those poles--eBay or a thrift store?

Is there something in particular about these sequences that you wanted to discuss, J3rry? You may get something going here without being more specific. But as it is, your initial post is pretty much like saying--on a Skiing forum, no less--"Skiing--feel free to discuss...." 

What's on your mind?

Best regards,
Bob
post #3 of 20
Thread Starter 
Hi, Bob,

It's me on the photos (I created the sequences myself d8) ), the poles are from a rental shop, because it's from Goat's Eye Mountain in Sunshine Village, Alberta, Canada and I'm from Czech Republic and didn't take my equipment with me, but rented skis and poles instead :D Good observation with the poles, though :D

Well, I posted a video here some time ago, and it's been discussed in the following thread:

http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/87016/opinions-analysis-wanted

I was trying to improve since then, but as these photos reveal, it's not a complete improvement that I had in my head, didn't go exactly as I'd imagine... I still have a problem with the diverging skis, especially when on steeps during the initiation phase, however on the other hand, I think my sense for inclination and "break at the hip" angulation improved a bit... This time I decided to use these sequences instead of a video, since everyone was doing stills from the video I posted, so I thought it might be better to put together sequences like that... But anyway, I'll be very glad to either discuss these elements or just generally read opinions, I'm very open to any suggestions, I was really happy with the result of my previous thread, EpicSki is a wonderful community ! :)
post #4 of 20
To my eye, your outside hip/half is "trailing" your feet and your turn

In the first horizontal panel of three images, this would be your right hip and hand.

Driving that knee / keeping the inside foot under the hips might be something to work on.


Some images suggest you are banking a bit, ie your spine is at about the same angle as your legs,
which leads to your shoulders being tipped - see the panel of three with the most close in shot.

Great shots btw,
brad
post #5 of 20
I was wondering about that--hadn't seen those images in Ron's collections before. Nice work (both the skiing, and the photosequences)!

Really, lots of good stuff going on in your skiing. Fore-aft movements and rotary movements, in particular, are strong--keeping your skis pressured in the "sweet spot" effectively, and keeping your body well-aligned (ie. "countered")--showing a disciplined upper body and "strong core." Timing of "vertical" movements also effective--all in all leading to a smooth transition with little loss of momentum.

I am not concerned about the divergence you occasionally show (especially visible in the first and third sequences). It shows strong independent leg steering skill. But it does suggest, in both of these sequences, that you may have moved too far into the new turn too quickly--and/or tried to engage the edge of the new outside ski too early (before you could get sufficient pressure to bend it and carve). The divergence itself is not an error--it's a strong move to compensate for something else that may have been an error.

And even that may or may not have been an error, depending on your intent. If you were trying to carve the cleanest possible turns, regardless of turn shape, the "too far/too quickly inside" thing was a mistake. But if you were trying to tighten your arc, as if trying to make a gate that was more across the hill, or required a tighter turn than your "clean carve" would have allowed, it's all good! You'll see the same move in World Cup racing quite often, for similar reasons. It's not "good" by default. But it may well be the right thing to do in certain situations.

Keep in mind, too, that because the inside ski must turn in a tighter arc than the outside ski, and because it is advanced a bit further than the outside ski (it "leads"), there will always be a slight divergence, even in "perfectly" parallel turns. This is true whether both skis carve, or only the outside ski carves while the unweighted inside ski is muscularly steered through the turn. 

In any case, your divergence shows strong and accurate rotary and tipping movements of the inside leg--regardless of why those movements may be needed at any given moment. Whether due to a mistake, or to an intentional and situationally-appropriate movement "too far inside," this inside leg activity is a strength. You'd fall over, or need to twist both skis into a braking skid, without it!

Now...why do you think you got "too far inside"? 

Best regards,
Bob
 
post #6 of 20
Thread Starter 
Well, you're completely right about my intention to tighten the arc (except for the fifth photosequence, that was on relatively flat terrain and I was trying to carve cleanly), especially on a moderate to steep slope, because that's what intrigues me most - how do I make the tightest arc possible, while conserving somewhat of cleannes at the same time - I've always been astonished by racers performing those tight GS turns on steep terrain while maintaining a relatively clean arc, short edge pressure and huge edge angles (that's what I'm after most)..., I guess I'm getting too much inside because I'm failing to establish a firm edge holding support prior to trying to get a big edge angle... ?
post #7 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by docbrad66 View Post

To my eye, your outside hip/half is "trailing" your feet and your turn

In the first horizontal panel of three images, this would be your right hip and hand.

Driving that knee / keeping the inside foot under the hips might be something to work on.


Some images suggest you are banking a bit, ie your spine is at about the same angle as your legs,
which leads to your shoulders being tipped - see the panel of three with the most close in shot.

Great shots btw,
brad

HI Brad--

Your observations (inside half lead, and some "banking") are accurate. But these things are not necessarily errors.

"Inside half lead" results from several important movements, including femurs rotating in hip sockets and inside leg more flexed ("shorter") than outside leg (due to inclination and/or hill angle). If he were to pull that inside foot back beneath his hips, it could over-pressure the tip and/or cause him to rotate his pelvis and upper body into the turn, causing problems in the transition to the next turn (if not causing him to fall too far into the current turn, losing pressure on the outside ski). Some "inside half lead" is appropriate and necessary. 

As for "banking" (meaning his upper body is tipped into the turn), that is not necessarily an error either. The faster you go through a given turn, the less "angulation" (the opposite of banking) you'll need to maintain a given edge angle--because your whole body (cm) will incline more for balance. Angulation and banking (lack of angulation) are neither good nor bad in themselves. They merely have effects--they affect edge angle. If you need more edge angle at any moment, you'll need to create more angles somewhere. But it's not true that you "always" need more edge angle!

Good ski technique is about matching causes to desired effects--not about categorically or dogmatically "right and wrong movements." Do you see adverse effects to the movements you've described? What are they, specifically? (I'll grant that J3rry's possible "too far inside" moments could be due to excessive banking early in the turn. Anything else?)

Best regards,
Bob
post #8 of 20
Quote:
I guess I'm getting too much inside because I'm failing to establish a firm edge holding support prior to trying to get a big edge angle... ? 
Very likely, J3rry. But don't forget that, at higher speeds (ie. World Cup), the very same movements (inside the turn) would result in balance on the outside ski, and allow you to engage and carve earlier in any given turn. 

Best regards,
Bob
post #9 of 20
Thread Starter 
Okay, thanks a lot for so much insight, Bob, I'll try to experiment with different speeds and different edge engagement ''delays'' to see where it feels best/where will it allow me to start to carve early in the turns...
post #10 of 20
HI Brad--

Your observations (inside half lead, and some "banking") are accurate. But these things are not necessarily errors.

"Inside half lead" results from several important movements, including femurs rotating in hip sockets and inside leg more flexed ("shorter") than outside leg (due to inclination and/or hill angle). If he were to pull that inside foot back beneath his hips, it ould over-pressure the tip and/or cause him to rotate his pelvis and upper body into the turn, causing problems in the transition to the next turn (if not causing him to fall too far into the current turn, losing pressure on the outside ski). Some "inside half lead" is appropriate and necessary. 

As for "banking" (meaning his upper body is tipped into the turn), that is not necessarily an error either. The faster you go through a given turn, the less "angulation" (the opposite of banking) you'll need to maintain a given edge angle--because your whole body (cm) will incline more for balance. Angulation and banking (lack of angulation) are neither good nor bad in themselves. They merely have effects--they affect edge angle. If you need more edge angle at any moment, you'll need to create more angles somewhere. But it's not true that you "always" need more edge angle!

Good ski technique is about matching causes to desired effects--not about categorically or dogmatically "right and wrong movements." Do you see adverse effects to the movements you've described? What are they, specifically? (I'll grant that J3rry's possible "too far inside" moments could be due to excessive banking early in the turn. Anything else?)

Best regards,
Bob


Hi Bob,
 all valid points.  I guess my first pass was more a commentary than a prescription, and that can be (and perhaps is) off the mark without knowing intent.

Looking further to see what *could be* adverse effects, let me add this:

      What I suspect might be happening is a large "up and over" movement, coupled with a bit of falling laterally to the inside.  See the six picture montage after the close up of three images.  The combination puts less pressure on the inside ski, and, while the sidecut of the ski is the star of the show, it makes it harder to drive the skis back across the hill.

  Also, in the close-up with the three images, it looks like the right foot has been "stepped in / steered more" compared to the outside left foot - note the stance width in image 2 vs image 3,  and divergence of the tips in mage 3.  While the inside ski is of course 'lighter', I wondered if it has been made too light in an effort to start that tip back across the hill sooner, whereas a delay and more tipping might keep the pressure on the inside ski

Brad


Edited by docbrad66 - 3/22/10 at 8:57am
post #11 of 20
Quote:

As for "banking" (meaning his upper body is tipped into the turn), that is not necessarily an error either. The faster you go through a given turn, the less "angulation" (the opposite of banking) you'll need to maintain a given edge angle--because your whole body (cm) will incline more for balance. Angulation and banking (lack of angulation) are neither good nor bad in themselves. They merely have effects--they affect edge angle. If you need more edge angle at any moment, you'll need to create more angles somewhere. But it's not true that you "always" need more edge angle!

 

Bob, I agree with you that it is often alot of focus on angulation, and often too much angulation. My view on angulation is that a lot of angulation and pressure on the outside ski gives you solid edge lock, but quite often that is a problem unless clean railroad tracks on moderate terrain is the goal. For instance in the gates it is often required to pivot before the gate. If there is too much angulation in this case there is a risk for early edge lock. inclination is clearly the way to go in this case.
post #12 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by j3rry View Post

Hi, Bob,

It's me on the photos (I created the sequences myself d8) ),

I'd really like to know how you created the sequences.  What's the secret?
post #13 of 20
Thread Starter 
Well, there's no secret, really - you put your sequence of photos into a vector based graphic editor as individual layers and then align them precisely using some stationary background objects common to at least two of the photos.

I personally ease all the work up by using the "darken" (older JASC paint shop, I believe that Corel and various other editors have that too, you'll have to find out either on some graphic editing forums or look it up on the SW developers pages, maybe there are even some free layer enabled editor that can do it, too, just ask uncle Google and see...) function for the whole layer I'm adding since it makes it virtually transparent in areas of snow (white color doesn't really darken things :D)...

Each time you add next layer (photo), you have to manually clean some of the stuff that overlays inconveniently (dark areas like trees, your preceding sequence photo position - skier, usually a small part of it) so that each next skier's (or whatever it might be, you can throw a rock from a bridge and create such a sequence study out of that if you want :D) position covers what's "behind" both in terms of background (of a previous position where the skier was not yet there) and time (partially covered parts of body etc in previous position) and that's it, you repeat this proces two to x times, depending on how many of photos you have in sequence / how many of the certain amount you do have you want to include into the sequence...

Cheers :)
post #14 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by exracer View Post

I'd really like to know how you created the sequences.  What's the secret?
 

Good thread on the topic here: Photo Montages.

Have fun, and show us what you come up with!

Best regards,
Bob
 
post #15 of 20
Hi guys here on EpicSki. I’m new here as a contributor even though I have found a couple of good stuff here in the past. I followed a link J3rry placed on a Czech ski forum where we have been discussing his skiing earlier. So I would like to say hello to everybody here before I put some comments here.
 
Hi J3rry,
That’s great you are hardly and patiently working on you technical skills. I can confirm all the positive feedback you got here. On the other hand it seems to me, that some of your weaknesses remain in your skiing. Before I will go deeper in it it would be interesting to know how do you feel about accomplishing your goal – tightening your turns – which I consider to be a priority. It seems to me from the sequences that the turns are shallow a bit and IMO are not tightened enough and that the skis don’t change a direction sufficiently (the question is of course, what “sufficiently” means).
The divergence of the skis is IMO a result of your passive (back seat) position (best to see on seq. 4 and 6) and the fact that you still don’t load your outside ski enough during the turn and your weight is mostly on your inside leg while your outside leg is running out of the turn (especially 1/2,3; 2/last picture; 3/3) and is skidding especially at the end of the turn. As another result of that you lose a little bit momentum during the transition. If you were able to start the turns more in front and on your outside leg you would be able to bend more the shovels of your skis and the turns could be most probably more tightened.
Second thing I would mention is your position in the second phase of the turn. While your legs are keeping edge angle your pelvis is coming back over your skis which doesn’t help you tighten your turn and which isn’t probably very healthy for your knees as well. (You can see that for example on the Seq. No 5, 2nd and 3rd frames from the end – you will probably need to zoom it in little bit to be able to see that). This is probably caused by rotation at the and of the turn (4/6). Instead of that you should use especially your pelvis to keep edge angle and to resist centrifugal force, especially in GS turns. Your body should be properly angulated (doesn’t mean excessively) with little bit counter. But this is most probably not possible while sitting over your inside leg, so I would recommend you working on the weakness mentioned above first.
Best regards
Ivan
post #16 of 20
Great sequence.  
post #17 of 20

I didn't look at you earlier post, so this is just based on what I see in this post, not your progression.

You have a lot of good stuff going on like hands driving down the hill, tipping the skis onto edge early, letting your body travel to the inside of the turn.

If you are trying to emulate GS race turns, then I would suggest not coming up so tall in the transition. It limits the amount of extension you can manage through the turn, as you are already extended when you enter the turn. At the speeds you are going, you need more angulation to pressure the outside ski more. That, in my eyes, is why your skis become divergent. You also need to let your inside leg flex more, removing pressure from it and facilitating inclination and especially angulation.

You do tend to drop the inside hand a bit. Keep your hands at closer to the same height from the snow.

It is hard to know for certain from the camera angles, but it appears you look at the next turn instead of the location of the second turn. This removes the outside focus you develop in the start of the turn. from where you need it most, at the end of the turn. Try to keep your vision down the hill, not across the hill. See across the hill with peripheral vision, not direct vision.

Your greatest pressure on your skis is in the last third of the turn. It should be in the middle third. By flexing more in transition, you will be able to let you skis move to the outside and pressure while the skis are close to the fall line, not later when you should be beginning to flex to relase.

I've said a lot that you can try, but you do ski well. Work on more flexion and extension to work the turn and transition, with outside focus and you will be arcing the steeps in not time.

post #18 of 20
Hi J3rry, great photo montage work. Great skiing as well. Dont have time to go back and check what feedback I gave you earlier but I think I remember one of the issues I pointed out was leaning on the inside ski. I see that happening here too. You put too much pressure on the insice ski and its also diverging quite a bit in some photos. That means that the ski has no prossibilities of carving properly and its skidding along. At the same time you are leaning on it causing outside ski to loose grip. In your case that would mean that the turn radius would not be as tight as you hoped for. Or what would be possible. I too agree that you extend too much at transition. You are not only "vaulting" over like in typical GS transitions by WC skiers but you are actually extending quite a bit. That means that you loose pressure early on in the turn.
post #19 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

 I too agree that you extend too much at transition. You are not only "vaulting" over like in typical GS transitions by WC skiers but you are actually extending quite a bit. That means that you loose pressure early on in the turn.

Hi TDK,

I also agree with an exaggerated extension during a transition. The question is if he has another option with his inside leg overloaded  before transition started. I consider it a difficult task and physically demanding to make a better transition from such inconvenient position. So I would recommend to start with correct presure distribution between skis first and then focus himself on the transition.

Best regards

Ivan
post #20 of 20
That is the chicken or the egg proposition. I think that starting with a better position in the transition will translate to better outside leg pressure. The best place to solve the problem is in the first turn by not getting too much on the inside ski from the get go.
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