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Up Movements? Bad? - Page 3

post #61 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

Jamt,
The up move was used for unweighting the skis with old skis by people who wanted to pivot or skid the old skis.  The reason it was used was because it was easier to pivot an unweighted ski. The typical move was for that purpose was to unweight the skis and pivot them enough to get them across the line of travel enough so that a skidded turn in the other direction would be easy to modulate.  What I am pointing out is that there was an alternative to pivoting the ski, even back in the stone age,  the alternative was arc to arc carving that involved keeping your edges engaged, and merely replacing the left edges with the right edges without any pivoting of the ski. This was accomplished by untipping the skis to decrease the radius of the old turn enough that the slight release from a very long radius turn to straight mattered not at all, and then tipping onto the new edges with a decambered ski to engaged the new edges, just like it is now.
 

Good posting Ghost. This is a very good description of why we had to up-unweight to turn. Sure there was an alternative, in fact there were and still are quite a few. Carving was and is one of them. A wedge turn is annother. When you do a wedge turn you dont need to unweight your skis. They are alredy skidding at an angle.

This is important. When teaching students how to wedge turn some instructors try to introduce the up-move because it will come in handy later when the students learn to turn parallel by up-unweighting (skidded turns). However, later when they learn to carve they need to un-learn the up-move since its not needed and its bad in carving. This is the reason I teach students to wedge without up-move since its not needed and its bad. Skis are allready skidding on BTEdges. Only thing you need to do is to distribute your weight and manage the pressure and you are turning. And when you start to carve you just go faster and along the edges insted of slightly at angle. No turning of skis, no up-unweighting no pivotting no skidding. Just edge locked fast carving. However, the students do not learn how to up-unweight and turn parallel. They will struggle in bumps and in powder and varying snow conditions. They will also have a problem skiing very steep slopes and narrow shutes. Thats why you need to teach students different techniques. Typically at different ages and levels. Lesson learned, for good all mountain skills you need to be able to use different ways of turning.
post #62 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post



I believe that the key to this is how much angulation is used. If you angulate a lot it will be difficult to skid into the next turn. Too early edge lock. Too little angulation and the skid will not stop. Inclination only into turn (with extension) and then progressive angulation is the key IMO.

 

You are talking about adjusting the ammount of skidding. Not how to initiate it!
post #63 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alena View Post

I do not recall wanting to offsett the skies into a skid to turn on old skis, in my prime days I used to go up to release the downhill edge.
 
And then what .
post #64 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

And what do you do after you release the downhill edge?


post #65 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

Alena,
Your "up" move was a step from big toe edge to other big toe edge.  A product of too much time at the stem Christie stage, and not enough DH racer emulation.  Sometimes a stem will get you out of a tight spot though.
 

Correct again . A stem is annother way to initiate a skidded turn without up-unweighting. Its the next step up from the wedge turn in traditional ski instruction. The most common way was however to use hip rotation in combination with up-unweighting to crank your skis into a skidd. People confused it to weighting the tips of the skis and thaught that if they only managed to keep their skis tight together and parallel everything else would be forgiven. Then they wondered why they could not ski outside nicely groomed and flat slopes. And when they saw themselves on video they could not believe their eyes of how horrible it looked! And the worst part of it all was that some thaught that this was the proper way of up-unweighting your turns and called it carapola. Or used it to bash traditional ski instruction.
post #66 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post




retraction?  I think the above describes rebound unweighting rather than retraction?  What makes retraction the most efficient way to unweight?  Does it take the least amount of energy?  Does it last the longest?  Doesn't retraction come in active or passive varieties?  Don't retraction turns do more to minimize the vertical movement of the cg in dynamic situations to help maintain balance?  I am confused... How do we simply allow this movement to happen?  Can't we actively anticipate and swallow a bump or virtual bump by involving the stomach muscles?  Does this qualify as "allowing" retraction to happen?

Some confusion regarding the word retraciton. Retracting the legs UP means flexing the legs and retracting them upwards towards the chest. Bending the knees. Pulling the feet back could also be considered some sort of retraction but its not what Rick ment I think.
post #67 of 192
Between us, we might just get it nailed down, tdk6.  Even in the old days, the skis "turned" themselves.  The fact that they were de-cambered into a curved shape and tilted and  the edges were pressed into the snow was enough to make them carve a curved path. 

A primary factor that determined the amount of skidding (or lack thereof) was the direction of the force applied to the ski, how much down force and how much sideways force.  That direction was a function of speed, turn shape, mass, gravity, and how much unweighting (or extra weighting) was used.  It still works the same way.  The function, so to speak,  just change it's coefficients a little for different side cuts, turn shapes, stiffness of skis, and snow conditions.
post #68 of 192
Strictly between you and me  yes the old straight skis turned themselves when put on edge just like the modern shaped skis. In fact they turned a fair deal better than people knew back then. The reason for this was that tipping the skis on edge without applying any kind of leg turing movements and pivots was very different to what they were used to.

A friend of mine that had not been skiing with modern shaped skis tried a pair of new GS skis the other year and his conclusion was that they were no different than his old 205s. The reason was that he could not carve back then and he could not carve now. Simple as that.
post #69 of 192

The construction techniques that allow a soft longitudinal flex and a stiff torsional flex are relatively new. Without this innovation skis needed to be much stiffer longitudinally and this in turn meant the up and down unweighting movements were used to facilitate an edge release under less load. Even the white pass (weighted release move) included some up unweighting as the outside leg really didn't flex until after the edge change. So the hips went up and over the outside leg.

As far as who knew how well a ski turned, I wouldn't say we didn't know the capabilities of our equipment. That sells all the talented skiers of that era short. If anything the new skis don't require as much talent or ability to produce similar outcomes. For Example, Carving turns is so much easier than it was on old straight skis.

post #70 of 192
I dunno if it is easier to carve now than before. It's more like; it's possible to do more than 4 or 5 arcs per run. Besides that, same same.
post #71 of 192
Regarding the OP I think that the following clips is an excellent exmple of a real case where all kinds of extensions are used to get Felix down as the Winner. It is one of my absolute favourite clips.
One interesting thing that can be noticed in the video is that on severl occasions he uses double extensions. First he extends into the turn, and then at the exit he briefly extends again (pushing the foot forward) in order to regain lateral balance and/or enable a pviot into the next turn. Directly after he retracts again. Is this what you called "kick the can" in another thread JASP?

post #72 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

Regarding the OP I think that the following clips is an excellent exmple of a real case where all kinds of extensions are used to get Felix down as the Winner. It is one of my absolute favourite clips.
One interesting thing that can be noticed in the video is that on severl occasions he uses double extensions. First he extends into the turn, and then at the exit he briefly extends again (pushing the foot forward) in order to regain lateral balance and/or enable a pviot into the next turn. Directly after he retracts again. Is this what you called "kick the can" in another thread JASP?


In this clip its very easy to see that Felix like all other racers flex through the transition and extend into the turn. There are not a lot of different extending and flexing patterns if we are not nitpicking offcourse. Where exactly do you see the double extention? Give me a timecode. 
post #73 of 192
Carl, Shaped skis are analogous to power steering in a car. The soft flex allows the ski to bend more and the extra sidecut scribes a tighter radius carved turn with less effort. Said another way, A straight ski with less side cut required us to flex the ski into a deeper bend to produce the same sized carved turn. Considering the skis were longitudinally stiffer, just getting them to bend that much required more effort.
post #74 of 192
jasp - we are not talking about bending an old 70s ski to the same radius as todays carving skis. The way carving is performed is exactly the same then as now. Try a pair of "modern" SG or DH skis to see how it works.
post #75 of 192
Thanks tdk6. 
When I was shown the light it was called "skiing the shape of the ski". I've loved it ever since. When I got my 33m BetaCarveX I was stoked that I could ski the shape and get at least 6 or 7 turns down the slope, and longer slopes up to ten arcs. Damn they were turn happy....
post #76 of 192
The 4-5 turn result, and the 6-7 turn result you mentioned suggest something changed. So even though the movements may be similar, if the outcome changes (more turns in the same space) it's hard to say things are still the same.
post #77 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl R View Post

Thanks tdk6. 
When I was shown the light it was called "skiing the shape of the ski". I've loved it ever since. When I got my 33m BetaCarveX I was stoked that I could ski the shape and get at least 6 or 7 turns down the slope, and longer slopes up to ten arcs. Damn they were turn happy....
 

Same over here, something like a 100% cut turn it was called. Nobody could perform it correctly at the instruction training I participated in because they were trying to initiate it with a strong outside knee drive. Carving was totally uncnown to the masses back then.
post #78 of 192

I think that quite often there is extension after the fall-line.

 

Here are some turns and my analysis:

1:55 ILE

2:04 Up movement (extension) before release
2:14 Extension at end of turn into pivot. also at 2:26
2:47 Kick the can?
3:24 up movement at end of turn into short turn pivot.

There are of course also a lot of normal extensions into the turn when the extension is completed before the fall line. This is the ideal but when things get tricky other mechanisms come into play. Or rather different timing of similar mechanisms.
Maybe I was saying to much that there are all kinds of extension, but IMO there are at least different flavors.

As a general rule of thumb I think it is fair to say that the more pivoting is required into the next turn, the more extension at the end of the previous turn. Can you agree with that?

This is something that a lot of our juniors have problems with. They are taught carving on easy courses, but when things get more difficult they become late in the line and have to throw in a panic skid after the fall line, which is really slow. It is much better to anticipate and throw the skid in before the gate/fall line, as you know. In order to do this skid I think the key is how you complete the previous turn. One approach is to "kick the can" if you know that you need to skid into the next turn. Do you agree with that? I'd love some opinions on that becuase there is so much focus on carving, but thats usally not the problem in the gates.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post




In this clip its very easy to see that Felix like all other racers flex through the transition and extend into the turn. There are not a lot of different extending and flexing patterns if we are not nitpicking offcourse. Where exactly do you see the double extention? Give me a timecode. 
 
post #79 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

I think that quite often there is extension after the fall-line.

 

Here are some turns and my analysis:

1:55 ILE Normal flex to relese

2:04 Up movement (extension) before release Normal flex to relese
2:14 Extension at end of turn into pivot. also at 2:26 Normal flex to relese, only quite late and with a pivot, at 2:26 I can see the inside leg extention so this is not a typical flex to relese
2:47 Kick the can? No kick the can
3:24 up movement at end of turn into short turn pivot. I cannot see any up movement

There are of course also a lot of normal extensions into the turn when the extension is completed before the fall line. This is the ideal but when things get tricky other mechanisms come into play. Or rather different timing of similar mechanisms.
Maybe I was saying to much that there are all kinds of extension, but IMO there are at least different flavors.

As a general rule of thumb I think it is fair to say that the more pivoting is required into the next turn, the more extension at the end of the previous turn. Can you agree with that?

This is something that a lot of our juniors have problems with. They are taught carving on easy courses, but when things get more difficult they become late in the line and have to throw in a panic skid after the fall line, which is really slow. It is much better to anticipate and throw the skid in before the gate/fall line, as you know. In order to do this skid I think the key is how you complete the previous turn. One approach is to "kick the can" if you know that you need to skid into the next turn. Do you agree with that? I'd love some opinions on that becuase there is so much focus on carving, but thats usally not the problem in the gates.
 



 
post #80 of 192
Ouch, I have not received so many red marks since school.
Seriously though, I think there is almost always flex to release, question is what happens before. An ideal turn with ALL extension before fall-line is not what is happening here IMO. An up-move for me is when some extension happens after the fall-line. I you cannot relate to this in felix run then I guess we disagree with the analysis, but that's ok.

Did you reflect on my other questions?
post #81 of 192
Jamt - sorry for all the red marks. I was in a hurry and wrote on the fly. You can brake up flexing and extending in god knows how many different flawors but I dont think that will get us anywhere. First of all, there is whishfull thinking in many camps that the most pressure is supposed to be applied before the fall line. If you want to really be objective let go of such thaught. Watch Felix and trust your own eyes. Pressure is applied before, at and after the fall line. Full extention is timed to this pressure build up. Has nothing to do with the fall line. Second, you cannot allways determine what is the fall line from watching a video. The camera angles and the double pitch in relationship to how the gates are set cannot always be seen from the camera angle.

You are saying that if there is more extention late in the turn there is more pivotting at the beginning of the next turn. Maybe its the other way arround: if you need to pivot at the turn entry you need to extend in time because skidding accross the snow at high speed in a pivot entry causes a lot of friction and thus also a lot of pressure build up and you need to be aligned correctly over the skis. A pivot entry is always performed with extended legs. Its a very effective recentering move but it slows you down.

I always thaught that kicking the can referred to forcing the outside ski forward at the end of the turn resembling in a kicking motion. Dont see how that refers to this discussion of being late in the turn. The problem with kids bailing out when it gets steep is simply because they are not fit and technically skilled enough to carve on steeps. Fact is that you cannot carve every turn on a demanding SL course. There are gates where you need to pivot and skidd. Its a tactical decision.
post #82 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

You are saying that if there is more extention late in the turn there is more pivotting at the beginning of the next turn. Maybe its the other way arround: if you need to pivot at the turn entry you need to extend in time because skidding accross the snow at high speed in a pivot entry causes a lot of friction and thus also a lot of pressure build up and you need to be aligned correctly over the skis. A pivot entry is always performed with extended legs. Its a very effective recentering move but it slows you down.
I can agree with that, but what I meant was that if you have pressure at the end of the turn you can more easily flow through the pvioting, if you have a slow release it is much more difficult with the same amount of pivoting. A lot of the pivoting is done before you put pressure, more or less in the air.

I always thaught that kicking the can referred to forcing the outside ski forward at the end of the turn resembling in a kicking motion. Dont see how that refers to this discussion of being late in the turn. The problem with kids bailing out when it gets steep is simply because they are not fit and technically skilled enough to carve on steeps. Fact is that you cannot carve every turn on a demanding SL course. There are gates where you need to pivot and skidd. Its a tactical decision.

I also think that kicking the can is forcing the outside ski forward. This will put pressure on the tail of the ski, and this will start a forward rotation of the body, which will help rebalancing into the next turn (and floating the tails). This is necessary when you pivot in the air, becuase you cannot recenter with snow contact like you would do in an arc-to-arc turn. This is he relation to beeing late, becuase if you are late you need to pivot into the next turn. Does it make sense?
 
post #83 of 192
Being late triggers a pivot. The result is often low edge angles and loosing traction, going wide and slowing down. But many times a pivot is a delibered move. The line is too tight and the speed is too high. As I said earlier its also a way of gaining balance. Making use of rebound and creating a float eather with skis on snow or up in the air can be used for an easy trigger of a pivot but its also possible and more likely that the racer continues carving edge locked after entering the new turn. This is the default mode.
post #84 of 192
WHOOSH!  Right over my head!!  I asked a ski patrolman at the local hill how do you turn?  His reply was "I don't know, I just do".  That is alot how I am, as alot of the lingo goes right over my head, but one thing I do understand is I extend, then change weight to the other ski (since I am somewhat "unweighted") and flex into the turn to slow down.  I also move my hips around in some manner but am not sure what is going on here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

 I have noticed many posts lately that denounce "UP" movements or extending to initiate turns?

I wonder how many different interpretations have been created from these statements?

Don't we extend in every turn we make?

How could we flex if we did not first extend?

Isn't it a matter of where we extend in the turn that changes based upon the appropriate tactics for any given situation?

Isn't the trajectory of the extension what matters?  It seems many associate extension movements with UP like a tree grows when in fact good extension occurs closer to perpendicular to the pitch of the slope which releases the edges to turn.

I think it is important to understand the timing of our extension movements in relationship to the timing of our edge change movements is key to understand and that owning the whole spectrum of the timing of these two movement blends is one key to a well rounded skier.  To say modern skiing should only include flexing to release our edges seems short sighted.

While extending UP like a tree grows, which never permits the edges to release into the new turn, is a less efficient movement, it is one extreme end of the extension vs edge change continuum.  Changing edges to engage the downhill edges before any extension movement begins, represents the other extreme of the same continuum.  So to clarify, one end of the spectrum would be extending then changing edges and the opposite extreme would to change the edges then extend.  

The fact is we live somewhere in the middle of this spectrum blending the timing of these two movements as the situation dictates.  When skiing a slower pace we tend to begin an extension movement as we simultaneously move toward edge change.  As the turning forces begin to build in excess of what is needed to turn our skis, a good skier will begin to change the movement blend to flex as the edges are released and extend during the the engagement of the new edges, which allows us to absorb some of the excess forces in the turn completion and redistribute some pressure higher in the arc of the new turn.  Once we reach higher speeds and forces we move closer to the extension/retraction end of the spectrum where our flexion movements are dramatic, edge change is lightning quick and the subsequent extension movements are equally dynamic to remain in contact with the snow and redistribute pressure higher in the arc.

So we should be clear that extension movements in general are NOT bad.  Extending straight against  the pull of gravity (the way a tree grows) is a poor movement.  Flexing to change edges all the time as a default movement seems a bit limiting as well.  Every situation requires functional timing of edge change with extension and flexion to match the needs of the situation and turning forces.  IMO

Your thoughts?
 
post #85 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by PimpinPanda View Post

WHOOSH!  Right over my head!!  I asked a ski patrolman at the local hill how do you turn?  His reply was "I don't know, I just do".  That is alot how I am, as alot of the lingo goes right over my head, but one thing I do understand is I extend, then change weight to the other ski (since I am somewhat "unweighted") and flex into the turn to slow down.  I also move my hips around in some manner but am not sure what is going on here.

 



 

Not giving skiing technique much thaught is very common. Some people dont want to get into all that stuff. Its the same in any sport. In anything actually. In your case you sound to me like you are a typical up-unweighting type of skier. Extending at transition and flexing through the turn. You turn to slow down and you skidd your turns. Braking. This is the total opposite of what some do. They dont want to loose much speed when turning and they could be eather flexing or extending at transition. My guess is also that you use your hips to fuel your initiation, hip rotation.
post #86 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post




Not giving skiing technique much thaught is very common. Some people dont want to get into all that stuff. Its the same in any sport. In anything actually. In your case you sound to me like you are a typical up-unweighting type of skier. Extending at transition and flexing through the turn. You turn to slow down and you skidd your turns. Braking. This is the total opposite of what some do. They dont want to loose much speed when turning and they could be eather flexing or extending at transition. My guess is also that you use your hips to fuel your initiation, hip rotation.


Yes on all counts.  How should I ski to be PSIA compliant, ie to teach and pass the exams?
post #87 of 192
Panda, Are you working in a US ski school? If so talk to your area trainers and SSD. If not join a school. Here in RM one of the required qualifications is to have a minimum number of teaching hours in your discipline. So the tests and the clinics are designed to guide you towards the goal of becoming a great instructor, along the way you will probably become a better skier but it really is job training.
post #88 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Panda, Are you working in a US ski school? If so talk to your area trainers and SSD. If not join a school. Here in RM one of the required qualifications is to have a minimum number of teaching hours in your discipline. So the tests and the clinics are designed to guide you towards the goal of becoming a great instructor, along the way you will probably become a better skier but it really is job training.

Thanks, no I am not working at a ski school, but want to.  I figure if I pass the level 1, it will be easier to get a job.  I know that I will only get a certificate of accomplishment if I dont join the psia in within 30 days or don't have the 10 hours of teaching .

The test is only $25.   This is exclusively for being a teaching pro, nothing to do with my actual skiing. 
post #89 of 192
Interesting plan, Experience isn't necessary but a little networking might be more effective than a level 1 cert. Mostly because it will allow you to get to know the people you want to work with and let them get to know you as well. Is there an area you are considering? Look on their web site and give their SSD a call.
post #90 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Interesting plan, Experience isn't necessary but a little networking might be more effective than a level 1 cert. Mostly because it will allow you to get to know the people you want to work with and let them get to know you as well. Is there an area you are considering? Look on their web site and give their SSD a call.

What is a SSD?  I know the general manager of my local resort, have told him I want to be a ski instructor, told him I will train for free, told him I am a sales rep in the outdoor industry (fly fishing) and give beginners lessons for free at my local church, talked to last years ski school director and told him the same, talked to the new ski school director and told him the same, talked to the mt shasta ski school director and asked to do a ski test, she told me their probably wouldnt be any openings, there werent last year so she couldnt spend the time.

Oh, and I also told the gm of my local ski resort I was interested in doing PSIA clinics so I would be more skilled to teach, but he said their clinics at this time were only open to staff.
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