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Up Movements? Bad? - Page 7

post #181 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

Buddiagram2.jpg
Bud, here is a diagram I made just to illustrate ILE, OLF and Up-Unweight Extention IMHO offcouse. These are the typical principal models for each case as far as I understand them and how the CoM moves in the vertical plane. Anyone of these can be mixed together at any rate. The diagram also tries to illustrate that extention does not always mean up as in the OLF case. There we have the lateral component in extention. Its also clear that if we whish for bigger edge agles in the OLF case, as illustrated in the ILF case, the CoM will be moving up a bit but not as much as in ILF.


 

Care to explain the last illustration?
I don't understand it.

Also, I don't agree with most notion here about up unweight and carving. Expecially in the context of spending energy. But I might do another up unweight than thought of by Rick.
When I up unweight I just keep the outer leg extension and the body moves up. Then as I reach towards the center point, I become slightly weightless and gets a nice relaxation of the legs. Then when it's time to hook up the skis when the feet have passed, I keep the extension until having set the edge and at that time I might bend the leg slightly so that it works in damper mode.
Skiing like this is quite effortless and works for all inclinations (tested to 45%). I think the body moves exactly like the ILE in the picture above.

When I down unweight I feel that under transition both legs keep burning in the latter part of the run. Almost like no-unweight. Also, the weighted extension phase is quite difficult and also draining energy. The body is moving exactly like OLF in the picture. Down unweighting works much better for me in steep terrain than in shallow stuff. Also between gates it feels quite natural. It seems like the transition gets shorter and more unweighted at high speed.

Arc to arc, easy sunday ride: up unweight (by keeping outer leg stiff).
Arc to arc, fast and less completed arcs, or fast and steep: down unweight.

Now I've gotta read the thread again to see if I've missed something.

Btw, I tried out ILE last week. I did some focused runs to understand the feeling. I was intrigued by how different it felt. I liked it and I must experiment with it more next season. In what situations is ILE best used?
post #182 of 192
TDK, what do you mean with the following statement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post


Extention together with angulation will help you keep your CoM low

Can't you be even lower with flexed legs?
post #183 of 192
Carl, good to get some questions on the diagrams.

All the 3 graphs show a skier from the front. The skier is always picktured from the front even though he turns to his left and then to his right. The middle man is at transition with skis flat on the snow. The red lines represent the skiers lower legs and shins. Like shin guards on a SL skier. The gray lines represent the upper leg. The green line represents the upper body. The black circle is an approximate CenterOfMass point. The dotted black line is how the CoM moves in the vertical plane.

ILE
The skier keeps his outside leg extended all the time. At apex (fallinje) the inside leg is bent and you can only see the shin. At transition both legs are extended and you can see both legs all the way up. The CoM trawels from a low position at apex to a high position at transition. This causes up-unweighting due to the ricing mass but is not to be confused with a up-unweighting extention movement of the legs which is the bottom one of the graphs. But the CoM rises and there is a tendency to unweight. The pro with this kind of turn and transition is that the skiers hips and CoM in the fore/aft plane is always forwards. The con is that the CoM needs to rise and it slows the skier down and causes unweighting if done too fast. Its being used in GS and speed diciplines.

OLF
The skier starts out at apex like in ILE except in the pickture not with as much overall projection. However insted of keeping his outside leg extended as he comes out of apex he flexes his outside leg and at transition you cant se his upper legs, gray line, on eather leg. Thats becasue he is flexed 90deg in his knees. The pro here is that he doesent have to move his CoM in the vertical plane. Con is that he is in the back seat as he passes skis flat in transition. Its a very fast and smooth way of going from one set of edges to annother in SL.

Up-unweight Extention
Here the skier flexes his legs all through the turn in order to be flexed at the transition for a upward extention that results in unweighting. He is then totally extended at the top of the turn and has to start flexing from that point onward. Pro is that its easy to initiate a skidded turn when unweighted. Con is that this extending and flexing pattern is reverse to what we have in OLF and it can be hard to learn the new cycle.

You are IMO using ILE for your transitions. The reason for this is that you said:
- I keep my outside leg extended all the way through the turn and into the transition
- I dont flex more than a thad into the turn for maintaining pressure
post #184 of 192
Tdk6, do you differentiate between active Inner Leg Extension and passive ILE?

It seems I confuse passive ILE with up unweighting. Then what is active ILE?
post #185 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl R View Post

When I up unweight I just keep the outer leg extension and the body moves up. Then as I reach towards the center point, I become slightly weightless and gets a nice relaxation of the legs
 

Then yes you are unweighting and TDK's third diagram is what applies to you.  it may be more subtle than his diagram, but at some level you are doing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl R View Post

When I down unweight I feel that under transition both legs keep burning in the latter part of the run. Almost like no-unweight.

If that is the case, then you are not down unweighting, you are simply using OLR to release the turn and flexing low, but there is no unweight.  I agree, if you are riding in a squatted position for too long, its hard on the quads.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl R View Post
Also, the weighted extension phase is quite difficult and also draining energy. The body is moving exactly like OLF in the picture.

This doesn't make sense to me.  need more info.  Standing on a stacked and extended leg should not feel strenuous.  perhaps your weight is too far back though, which means you're stressing out your quads.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl R View Post
Down unweighting works much better for me in steep terrain than in shallow stuff. Also between gates it feels quite natural. It seems like the transition gets shorter and more unweighted at high speed.

Absolutely.  IF you are actually unweighting, then a down unweight is definitely a faster and smoother move.  Up unweighting is very clunky in comparison.  At slower speeds, down unweighting is very difficult to do because of that fact that its such a short event.  So at slow speeds an up unweight will get the job done more practically.  At higher speeds, quicker turns; up unweighting becomes too slow and lethargic. 

Also remember, when you up unweight, you acheive weightlessness by moving up your CoM in a burst.  At the top you're weightless but then your weight comes crashing back down, resulting in an exaggerated surge of weight before the apex, and also probably in a flexing of your legs when you really should be gradually extending your outside leg as the skis diverge away from the Com. 

Conversely, when you down unweight, you simply flex your legs quickly, which gives you a short bit of weightlessness.  following that weightlessness you regain your weight but its usually at the same time that your skis are diverging away from your CoM, so you can gradually extend your legs and obtain a gradual and smooth increase in weight as you approach the apex.  its much much more smooth with a flex/extend timing that makes more sense in terms of what your skis are doing relative to your CoM. 

If your turns are snappy enough, then you don't even have to actually move DOWN, but rather you simply flex your legs and release the skis with the right timing and they will seem to rise up to you in a weightless manner while your CoM remains stable. 

in the bumps, in the pow, on the steeps, this will all feel monumentally more stable, cleaner, smoother and more controlled than a clunky up unweight would in that situation 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl R View Post
Arc to arc, easy sunday ride: up unweight (by keeping outer leg stiff).
Arc to arc, fast and less completed arcs, or fast and steep: down unweight.


Chances are high that if you are unweighting, then you are aren't skiing arc-to-arc.   I'm not saying it isn't possible.  But if you disengage your skis, it takes very concerted effort to prevent the skis from pivoting during transition.

Remember though, that if you are just reducing the weight compared to the apex, that is not really unweighting per say.  If you go all the way to weightless or close enough to it that your skis disengage, then you are unweighting.  if you are simply going from 2G's at the apex to 1G or maybe .75G at transition, then I would not really call that unweighting per say, so long as you're remaining connected to the snow.

ILE particularly gives a strong feeling of connectedness to the snow at all times without having to ever get into the hunched position during transition of OLR.  standing on your extended legs is not that difficult.  What is tiring is when you're riding using your quads too much, like what happens when the legs are bent a lot.  ILE can definitely be easier on the legs than OLR when there is no unweighting.  But the downside of ILE is that its also easy to unweight when you really shouldn't, which disconnects you from the snow if you aren't careful.
post #186 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl R View Post

Tdk6, do you differentiate between active Inner Leg Extension and passive ILE?

It seems I confuse passive ILE with up unweighting. Then what is active ILE?


Carl, ILE has to do with how you initiate the transition more than anything.  Rick can probably point you to some lengthy articles on the subject. 

Everyone is getting really side tracked by how they LOOK, whether their legs are long or short during transition, whether they they go through or over, etc.  ILE is not a description of how you look.  Its a description of how you initiate the transition.  It has nothing to do with unweighting either, other than the fact that its easy for someone to over do it on the movements and get unweighting when they don't mean to.  I personally think its easier to overdo it with ILE than it is with OLR, and to go weightless when you really shouldn't
post #187 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

Can't you be even lower with flexed legs?
 


Yes
post #188 of 192
Very good postings BTS. The technical discussions here on epic are quite callenging. They are not for everyone. I think Carl and Jamt shows good spirit and Im most positive that they will learn something. The question regarding quadds burning when skiing with retraction turns is nothing new to me. First of all its a very high energy way of skiing with lots of performance. Im completely exhausted after skiing a 30 sec SL run. Its also a constant flexing and extending of your legs and that wears you out from just the movement with no load. Think of bumps for example. Its tiring. Secondly, if you dont do it properly and with good timing and gentle movements then it most certainly wears you out. It means that you are in the back seat when skis are pressured and that can be not only tiring but also dangerous. If you want to find out how well you are balanced in the for aft plane and if you extend in the right places then try skiing a GS or SL track preferably an icy one. It will give you a good estimation of what you should be doing. Getting fit is also important.
post #189 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post


Also remember, when you up unweight, you acheive weightlessness by moving up your CoM in a burst.  At the top you're weightless but then your weight comes crashing back down, resulting in an exaggerated surge of weight before the apex, and also probably in a flexing of your legs when you really should be gradually extending your outside leg as the skis diverge away from the Com.  
 

It seems your post is in total agreement with mine except maybe this statement, depending on how it's interpreted.

Sure there's an increased weight surge, but please consider that muscles are much much more powerful when the muscle is working eccentric (fibers lengthening). Also an almost straight leg is easier on the muscles than a bent leg. Just try walking with 90 degrees bent legs.

This is why I feel down unweighting seems like a strange choice for casual carvers in blue or red groomed slopes.
post #190 of 192
Carl - if you use ILE for your transition you will unweight yourself as BTS said. The unweighting will not take place before you are fully upright and start to vault over to the other side. If you have lots of time and you are not in a rush and the slope is smooth and not too steep then there is no danger in this kind of transtion. The thing that puzzles me is when you say you flex your outside leg just a bit to maintain pressure. This means that you will have to extend it first. When do you do that? If you do it as I suspect as you come out of your turn into the transition right at edge change then you are combining two things, ILE and up-unweighting extention. If you are running over a tiny bump at that moment you are combining three things for pushing your CoM up. Im just saying you this because the up-extention movement can be dangerous at times and its better to use your legs and range to be prepared for a flex insted of an extention. Annother way of doing it and I think Im in that camp is that I do not extend that leg at transition. I leave it just slightly flexed even if Im performing a ILE transition.

You are right about the down unweighing thing being tiresome on a easy groomer. But remember that you dont have to flex much when using OLF. You can be fearly upright. You dont have to go down to 90deg or lower in your knees. Makes for very relaxed skiing in my opinion. Check out this:

post #191 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

Carl - if you use ILE for your transition you will unweight yourself as BTS said. The unweighting will not take place before you are fully upright and start to vault over to the other side. If you have lots of time and you are not in a rush and the slope is smooth and not too steep then there is no danger in this kind of transtion. The thing that puzzles me is when you say you flex your outside leg just a bit to maintain pressure. 
I didn't say that. :)
But please take a look at the MA video from early this season. See if you can observe something. (Oh I know the arms are terrible.. )


I think I'm smoothing out the edge setting moment with the flexing of the knee. When I up unweight I see the edge setting moment as the landing if you know what I mean? The forces tends to be on and off, so some initial damping seems like a good idea.

For my skiing it's the most easy and strength saving way of doing the transitions while still being able to get high angles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

You are right about the down unweighing thing being tiresome on a easy groomer. But remember that you dont have to flex much when using OLF. You can be fearly upright. You dont have to go down to 90deg or lower in your knees. Makes for very relaxed skiing in my opinion. Check out this:


Sorry, but I can't relate to your skiing there. I think you are doing some instructor posing and it rubs me the wrong way. I don't think the skiing looks relaxed. I think it looks like every joint in the body is tensed all the time.

I know you are a much more dynamic skier just by looking at your avatar.

But hey, you know me. I'm not satisfied if I'm not on the verge of falling. ;)
 
post #192 of 192

Carl, the skiing was an example of how to flex to relese in an upright stance. In your video I think its obvious that you mix ILE with up-unweighting extention. And that you dont have a clear pickture of what to do. This will be a very interesting area for you to dive into.

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