or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › General Skiing Discussion › THE CODE! Exception for beginners?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

THE CODE! Exception for beginners?

post #1 of 72
Thread Starter 
You are a advanced skier.  You are just cruising on a blue.  You see a couple of beginners, in a wedge, holding on for dear life.  I would say they get a ... not an exception, but leniency on the skier code.

We have all been there, just learning how to ski, and it is terrifying, and you are worried about not dieing.  Not running into someone is not in the front of your mind because you are terrified!  What are people's opinions on this?
post #2 of 72
 Ski on the greens until they can ski in control on the blues.
post #3 of 72
 You get a big, fat "agreed" on this.  Protect and encourage novices, and when they can pay attention to more  than staying upright, make sure they're well-informed.  I mean skiing on blues (who knows how they ended up there).
post #4 of 72
 disagree...

you can progress and never be truly out of control.

like if your wedging why the hell are you on a blue run? its not like that wedge is going to go away on a blue run at all...
post #5 of 72
Children and Beginners get a extra effort on my part. We all were there at one time. Part of being an Advanced skier is knowing when to cut some extra slack.
post #6 of 72
Some people are out on the blues to challenge themselves and/or see what they are missing. Some are following their friends who have overestimated their ability. Some might have been confused a junction and gone down the wrong trail by mistake. If we banish everyone to the greens until they are 'good enough' (according to whom, by the way) we won't have any new skiers because they will be bored and lack incentive to improve. We sorely need more skiers to maintain the sport we love.

I don't suggest banishment to an 'i cant spel or typ four the life of me' site for poor grammar, spelling and punctuation on this site. Rather, I'd encourage the use of the spell checker, utilizing adequate punctuation and fixing my shift key. The same goes for skiing. If you can't ski to the level that you need to on a run, that's ok. You are on the hill to have fun and enjoy yourself. That isn't to say that you should be a reckless idiot, either. As a professional, in uniform, I'll offer help to someone that is clearly distraught and at high risk of injury. I often will do that out of uniform, as well. It is akin to asking someone if they are ok if they just wrecked and might look a little bleary eyed.

Empathy can go a long way towards reducing your frustration with others apparent lack of consideration. I was a beginner at a number of activities throughout my life. How about you? Think about how it felt and then imagine how the the other guy might be feeling.

Edit: FWIW I found 4 spelling errors in my original post with spell check.
Edited by MastersRacer - 3/14/10 at 5:43pm
post #7 of 72
I'm not suggesting banishment, nor am I without sympathy or concern for a skier who is over their head.

However that said, the skier's code includes always being able to stop and avoid obstacles below you.  Are you suggesting that allowing, even encouraging people to not be able to avoid obstacles is a positive thing?

Of course there will be exceptions, but overall skiers need to have the skill to slow down and stop or they should avoid being on trails where they cannot.

You can be in control in a wedge.
post #8 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post

Empathy can go a long way towards reducing your frustration with other's apparent lack of consideration. I was a beginnger at a number of activies throughout my life. How about you? Think about how it felt and then imagine how the the other guy might be feeling.

By the way, I started skiing at 37,  I am very aware of what it feels like to be a beginner and a low level intermediate.  I have a huge amount of empathy for people still at that skill level.
post #9 of 72
have to go w/empathy and acting your age / or skill level.  I often see parents and young kids in tandem, kid pizza slicing or 'plowing for dear life.  I try to steer really wide or just watch for a while...no need to add to the stress level of a 4-7 year old, or their parent.  Maybe because my 10 year old was there about 30 months ago -- now he can ski single diamonds and double diamonds through trees, until he decided to go to the dark side and board too. 
post #10 of 72
I'd grant anyone some slack on the code if they made an honest accident or got in a little over their head. 

One of the few times I've been collided with was by a snowboarder on a green trail who was out of control, but not because he wanted to be. He just lost it and slid into me where I was practicing some short release drills on the side of the slope. His board ended up snapping my planted pole in half. I didn't stab him to death with the jagged end though. That kind of stuff just happens.

@SMJ - You cannot always stop on a dime. The one time I have hit someone it was a snowboarder who was making a fast traverse across an easy blue slope, virtually empty otherwise. I did not see him until he was about 20 feet away and he did not see me because he had his back up the slope. I made a quick change of direction to stop and avoid him, and right at that time he decided to drop into the slope for a turn back the other way. He was the downhill rider, so the collision was my fault, but it felt a lot like one of those situations where someone merges in front of you on the highway and slams on their brakes. Fortunately, we both just brushed each other off and realized it was an accident. I should have seen him, and he should have been paying more attention to the slope he was cutting across. 
Edited by onyxjl - 3/14/10 at 5:41pm
post #11 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post

Some people are out on the blues to challenge themselves and/or see what they are missing. Some are following their friends who have overestimated their ability. Some might have been confused a junction and gone down the wrong trail by mistake. If we banish everyone to the greens until they are 'good enough' (according to whom, by the way) we won't have any new skiers because they will be bored and lack incentive to improve. We sorely need more skiers to maintain the sport we love.

I don't suggest banishment to an 'i cant spel or typ four the life of me' site for poor grammar, spelling and punctuation on this site. Rather, I'd encourage the use of the spell checker, utilizing adequate punctuation and fixing my shift key. The same goes for skiing. If you can't ski to the level that you need to on a run, that's ok. You are on the hill to have fun and enjoy yourself. That isn't to say that you should be a reckless idiot, either. As a professional, in uniform, I'll offer help to someone that is clearly distraught and at high risk of injury. I often will do that out of uniform, as well. It is akin to asking someone if they are ok if they just wrecked and might look a little bleary eyed.

Empathy can go a long way towards reducing your frustration with others apparent lack of consideration. I was a beginner at a number of activities throughout my life. How about you? Think about how it felt and then imagine how the the other guy might be feeling.




Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post

I'm not suggesting banishment, nor am I without sympathy or concern for a skier who is over their head.

However that said, the skier's code includes always being able to stop and avoid obstacles below you.  Are you suggesting that allowing, even encouraging people to not be able to avoid obstacles is a positive thing?

Of course there will be exceptions, but overall skiers need to have the skill to slow down and stop or they should avoid being on trails where they cannot.

You can be in control in a wedge.

 

No. The OP cited ' in a wedge, holding on for dear life'. I imagined a person that wasn't able to manage the pitch with the skills they had, such that probably every 10 - 20 meters they were on their duffs; only a danger to themselves.

I did see an example of someone today, completely exceeding their ability straight lining a slope where there were dozens of less able skiers struggling just to stand up. If I had not been on the lift at the time, I would have insisted the bomber accompany me to the patrol office and let them deal with the matter, as they saw fit, based on my observations. I was in uniform (I'm a race coach) and I believe it is my responsibility, as an employee of the resort, to deal with that kind of flagrant lack of consideration. If I had been at another resort, I would have told the person that their actions were dangerous and that if they wanted to ski that fast, they should join a race club or team. Which I have done on occasion as well.
post #12 of 72
I make a distinction between someone making a mistake and getting in over their head, and learning from the mistake and someone deliberately putting other's at risk by repeating the mistake or just being irresponsible.

I remember hanging on for dear life on an icy black diamond way back when I was converting from snow plow to stem-Christie, but I always made sure there was nobody below or nearby before launching.
post #13 of 72
Agree with lakespapa.  My wife & daughter fall in between the novice and intermediate level category.  They will ski a moderately inclined blue run with good snow safely and in control.  However, we all know, not all blue runs are created equal.  Throw them on the steeper blue runs that are icy or chopped up and we have totally different skiers.

It's important for the advanced skiers in the group (as well as mountain personal) to give the less skilled skiers good advice.  Unfortunately that does not always happen, and the less skilled skier ends up in a situation they would rather not be in either.
post #14 of 72
 I'm all for being nice to other skiers.  Particularly skiers who are having trouble.  That ends when they run into me.  Especially if they manage to injure me.  Sorry, but being a beginner who is over their head doesn't relieve them of their responsibility to ski in control and to be accountable for their actions.
post #15 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

 I'm all for being nice to other skiers.  Particularly skiers who are having trouble.  That ends when they run into me.  Especially if they manage to injure me.  Sorry, but being a beginner who is over their head doesn't relieve them of their responsibility to ski in control and to be accountable for their actions.

Ditto for me. I was just about to post the same thing.  If they skied into my grandson and hurt him,  I will beat the crap out of them and then we can sue each other. 
post #16 of 72
 Always remember skiing is awesome! How can you best support the sport and others' enjoyment of it?

I had a very quick progression in skiing, not starting until 4 years ago, moving to Utah, meeting an amazing group of top-notch skiers, skiing every day for a few months and advancing quickly. But I still remember those early days when a black diamond was a mythical term that put fear in my heart. But I still had to step it up every day and take the plunge into terrain that was slightly above my skill level. Pushing myself, and a bit of fear, helped me develop an appreciation for what I had to learn and how great the sport could be.

Not everyone is lucky enough to be able to dedicate the consecutive/cumulative number of days ever year that are needed to hone in and develop great ski skills. But if they're trying, I give them the benefit of the doubt and just raise my awareness.

Also, everyone (skiing) on the mountain is a skier (and boarders are great, too). I think the key is just be sure that whatever approach you take is constructive and supportive of folks who are struggling on the slopes - it's a discretionary thing, but certainly being rude or taunting someone who is just learning to ski will only make skiing less enjoyable for them and, likely, bring your stoke down too. That said, people who are being reckless need to be reprimanded. No doubt. It can be hard to tell the difference as an observer. I find the best thing is to just be polite, cheery, love the mountain and encourage people. If you see something you truly think is dangerous help out if you can or talk to the mountain staff if you think that is the best approach.

I love watching people learn, even if they are a bit fearful, so I'm all for leniency.
post #17 of 72
I vote for leniency, and if the opportunity is there, offer some guidance to the folks in trouble.

I've skied enough runs over enough years that I don't feel bad at all about slowing down or changing my line to give a comfortable space to someone who might be having some problems.

I don't even mind stopping once in a while to see if I can offer a bit of encouragement or advice.
post #18 of 72
Beautifully put--all of it, MastersRacer, including the snark about writing.  

I say cut the beginners some slack--after all, OP said they were an "advanced" skier (who should be able to handle these situations without endangering the novice skiers).  Advanced, according to whom?  I know from this site how many say they are "advanced" or "expert"--and I truly doubt that, given what/how they write.  People are people--they don't become more careful and attentive when they get on the slopes (I'm thinking how careless/inattentive some are with their posts).

Unless we "banish" so-called advanced skiers from the "intermediate" slopes (who are there for what? to show off? to learn better technique??) then we shouldn't "banish" so-called beginner skiers who ALSO are there to learn.  It would do well for all of us if skiers/snowboarders remembered the humble beginnings they themselves had when they were learning...and cut others some slack.

No one has ever skied who hasn't done something dumb, something careless, something reckless--even if only once (!).  So stop judging others who are learning and ski better yourself!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post

Some people are out on the blues to challenge themselves and/or see what they are missing. Some are following their friends who have overestimated their ability. Some might have been confused a junction and gone down the wrong trail by mistake. If we banish everyone to the greens until they are 'good enough' (according to whom, by the way) we won't have any new skiers because they will be bored and lack incentive to improve. We sorely need more skiers to maintain the sport we love.

I don't suggest banishment to an 'i cant spel or typ four the life of me' site for poor grammar, spelling and punctuation on this site. Rather, I'd encourage the use of the spell checker, utilizing adequate punctuation and fixing my shift key. The same goes for skiing. If you can't ski to the level that you need to on a run, that's ok. You are on the hill to have fun and enjoy yourself. That isn't to say that you should be a reckless idiot, either. As a professional, in uniform, I'll offer help to someone that is clearly distraught and at high risk of injury. I often will do that out of uniform, as well. It is akin to asking someone if they are ok if they just wrecked and might look a little bleary eyed.

Empathy can go a long way towards reducing your frustration with others apparent lack of consideration. I was a beginner at a number of activities throughout my life. How about you? Think about how it felt and then imagine how the the other guy might be feeling.

Edit: FWIW I found 4 spelling errors in my original post with spell check.
post #19 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

 I'm all for being nice to other skiers.  Particularly skiers who are having trouble.  That ends when they run into me.  Especially if they manage to injure me.  
Sorry, but being a beginner who is over their head doesn't relieve them of their responsibility to ski in control and to be accountable for their actions.

Part of "Skiing in control is selecting the terrain where that person is comfortable" if a person gets in over their head the way to help them is to point them to a easier way out"down", or if none available then stay with them until they can at least know what to do to keep them from risking other people.
Most if not all advanced skiers(boarders) can tell if a person got a a trail by mistake or is just being careless.
Don't forget you were there once maybe its be to long for you to remember, but you were there nevertheless.
post #20 of 72
Only place I saw people run into me while I was STATIONARY on the sides of a trail or on the sides of trails merging was Windham Mountain, NY ... the ridiculous nature of those persistent slides and crashes right into my friends and me was beyond belief!
post #21 of 72
Thread Starter 
Yeah, this is what I am talking about.  Yesterday I saw a poor little kid wedging across the run, with his head staring at his skis scared for his life.  He is with his mom who is a int/adv.  I say to her "you, know, this may not be the best chair for your son". (their is a easier chairlift right next to it, not a bunny slope but low int) and she says ok, we are going to the other chairlift anyways.  I see her take the turn that goes to the int/advanced chair, where the easiest way down is a medium int and about a mile long <face palm>

Quote:
Originally Posted by job151 View Post

have to go w/empathy and acting your age / or skill level.  I often see parents and young kids in tandem, kid pizza slicing or 'plowing for dear life.  I try to steer really wide or just watch for a while...no need to add to the stress level of a 4-7 year old, or their parent.  Maybe because my 10 year old was there about 30 months ago -- now he can ski single diamonds and double diamonds through trees, until he decided to go to the dark side and board too. 
post #22 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post

Children and Beginners get a extra effort on my part. We all were there at one time. Part of being an Advanced skier is knowing when to cut some extra slack.

Words of gold!
post #23 of 72
I am puzzled. What is the point of the question? Leniency from what part of the Code?

I frequently encounter beginning-level skiers on slopes they can barely handle. On more than one occasion, I have made a point of skiing slowly, well behind them, and staying there to act as a shield from any idiots barreling down on them from above if they're in an area where the terrain might make that a danger. They're not doing anything wrong by being on a tougher slope than they are comfortable with, they're in control, though they may be exhausted from the effort. The only danger is that someone who isn't in control will run them down. They have every right to challenge themselves on a tougher slope.

I have also encountered beginning-level skiers of various ages from anklebiters to adults straightlining down all kinds of slopes, happy as clams for all appearances, though they are a menace to themselves and everyone else, because they are incapable of turning or stopping to avoid what's downhill of them. Half the time, the only thing that brings them to a stop is running into the end of the lift line, knocking people over. These folks deserve no leniency from the code. They're not skiing under control.  
post #24 of 72
You know goblue, you have a very good point here.  They are not violating the code if they are ahead of you.

I think this thread has gotten mixed up with another thread where the poster talks about getting hit by someone from behind.  If that person was a beginner who just messed up and crashed into me I guess then some leniency is possible, although then I would repeat my first post saying they should stay on the greens.

However if they are just going slowly and a bit out of control, but not of any danger but to people behind them, then they deserve consideration and care - but as you say they are not breaking any rules!
post #25 of 72
Anybody in trouble gets a pass. 

If there is somebody on a run who doesn't belong there, they get a lot of extra space.  I have a fairly dominant self preservation gene, avoiding unnecessary human caused dangers just seems like a good idea for them and me.  These people are normally skiing slower than me so they are easy to avoid, go left go right or wait, no biggie.

There are lots of exceptions; the solo skier in full lock up mode (especially beginners and smaller kids), newbies floundering with their equipment, somebody physically endangering themselves and oozing fear.  Will often stop and talk to them, offer assistance if they need it.  I'm not concerned about getting away from them, but they may be concerned about getting down alive. 

Others helped me, pay it forward.
post #26 of 72
Everybody gets in over their head from time to time, and not just beginners. Sometimes what they need is help. I've talked a few people in full panic/frustration/fear/verge-of-tears mode down slopes they had no business being on. Hell, I've talked myself down slopes I had no business being on!  Instructible moments all. Taught more than one person how to sideslip to get themselves out of trouble and down to something they could handle.   
post #27 of 72
Just had a interesting thought, what about the advanced intermediate just learning to ski bumps or the elder skier that is able to still pick their way down a bump run but no longer run a fast zipper line. 2 conditions exist here; First the person learning to ski will probably lose it a couple of times and go where they are not planning during the run. Second the elder or out of shape skier maybe skiing quite slowly (in comparison to a young zipper liner) but yet totally in control.
Doesn't the same conditions apply in these instances as to the beginning skier on the steeper Blue Trail? If not, In your opinion,Why not?
post #28 of 72
I teach skiing full time.  It's my only job in the winter and my livelihood.  Of course I have empathy for people over their heads.  I often will go out of my way to help them when I can.  A lot of times I have other responsibilities and can't.  I spend a lot of time on the hill in uniform and a big part of my "job" is being a good representative for the mountain.  This means smiling and being nice and answering questions and generally being helpful.  However my point is that you don't get a pass on being responsible for your actions and the results of those actions just because you are a beginner or you were scared.  I give a wide berth to all skiers and often yield when I have the right of way and pay attention and try to be situationally aware.  I do this because it's the professional thing to do AND because it increases my safety.  I will have no pity on anyone who hits me and injures me and I will hold that person responsible for their actions.  We have had fatalities here and collisions are no joke.

Yes I do remember being a crappy skier.  Sometimes I feel like a crappy skier.  I have never hit anyone or even been close to hitting anyone, even when I was over my head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve2ski View Post




Part of "Skiing in control is selecting the terrain where that person is comfortable" if a person gets in over their head the way to help them is to point them to a easier way out"down", or if none available then stay with them until they can at least know what to do to keep them from risking other people.
Most if not all advanced skiers(boarders) can tell if a person got a a trail by mistake or is just being careless.
Don't forget you were there once maybe its be to long for you to remember, but you were there nevertheless.
post #29 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve2ski View Post

Just had a interesting thought, what about the advanced intermediate just learning to ski bumps or the elder skier that is able to still pick their way down a bump run but no longer run a fast zipper line. 2 conditions exist here; First the person learning to ski will probably lose it a couple of times and go where they are not planning during the run.

Doesn't the same conditions apply in these instances as to the beginning skier on the steeper Blue Trail? If not, In your opinion,Why not?

This is me this year.  I've spent most of my time on the mountain this year getting the hang of skiing bumps.  As I often end up either going slow or skidding out, I feel bad working on it if there is anyone not in my own party on the trail as I don't want to get in their way.  Thankfully I've been able to ski a decent amount during the week so I don't have to worry about impinging on someone else's fun too much as I get better.

So far, no skier I've met has been anything less than perfectly cordial as they've passed me.
post #30 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve2ski View Post

Just had a interesting thought, what about the advanced intermediate just learning to ski bumps or the elder skier that is able to still pick their way down a bump run but no longer run a fast zipper line. 2 conditions exist here; First the person learning to ski will probably lose it a couple of times and go where they are not planning during the run. Second the elder or out of shape skier maybe skiing quite slowly (in comparison to a young zipper liner) but yet totally in control.
Doesn't the same conditions apply in these instances as to the beginning skier on the steeper Blue Trail? If not, In your opinion,Why not?

No you don't have the right to get too upset with either of these skiers ;(I'm closer to example #2 by the way) we are not skiing down controlled competition runs.  My ticket earned my the right to ski the same bumps as you.  Will not intentionally get in your way, but it is your responsibility to miss me.  I will try not to spray you as I bring you your lost ski after the yard sale. 
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Skiing Discussion
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › General Skiing Discussion › THE CODE! Exception for beginners?