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Momentum and initiation - Page 2

post #31 of 36
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

 ...IMO too many skiers never take the time to work on accurate movements in this zone. Without that accuracy their transitions suffer....

post #32 of 36
 Thanks for the good and detailed explanations!  I am still not totally articulate about this and it could very well be that some of this is way over my head, anyway here is my question: can you 'flow' as effortlessly with a cross over, with a cross through, with a cross under, if you ski square, if you ski countered...and what happens to the flow when you carve. What needs to happen in the finishing phase of the turn for the initiation of the next to 'flow' depending on each initiation? Is it mostly the elimination of any additional move to initiate (unless you want to change your type of turn)?

post #33 of 36
Wow--lots of good questions for a first-time poster. Welcome to EpicSki, Snownat!

To a degree, these questions have already been addressed in this and other recent threads, but let's take another look at them, since they really address the gist of the discussion.

I'll start with your last question--"Is it mostly the elimination of any additional move to initiate (unless you want to change your type of turn)?"

Well, yes--but it's important to remember that what you've described is the outcome--not the cause. Simply "eliminating additional moves" won't help at all if those moves are needed--for any reason. And for most skiers, most of the time, some kind of "additional moves" are needed to start turns, because they have not moved accurately through the finish of the previous turn--they have not "finished neutral." The "elimination of additional moves" to initiate is the measure of success, but the key to achieving it is to focus on how you finish the previous turn. And quite often, the real culprit is a misunderstanding of exactly what the finish of the turn involves--what does it look like, what are the principles of what I call "neutral" (while others may prefer a different term)--and what are its characteristics?

"Can you 'flow' as effortlessly with a cross over, with a cross through, with a cross under..."? 

If by these terms you mean "extension through the transition" (crossover), "flexion through the transition" (cross-under), or neither (cross through), then please see the replies to TomB above, beginning with my post #11. Essentially, the answer is "yes"--but these three "options" really represent the end and mid-points on a continuum of possible movement options. Whether--and how much and when--to flex or extend (primarily the legs) is critical in every turn transition (and every other moment in a turn), dictated entirely by the direction of the "ideal" momentum you need your body to have when it exits the turn. As I described earlier, it's the same choice you need to make when throwing snowballs at, um, "targets"--you need to determine the trajectory, especially including how high to aim, uniquely with every single throw. What's right for one throw--or turn--will be wrong for another.

"Can you 'flow' as effortlessly ... if you ski square, if you ski countered..."?

There will be some degree of "counter" (upper body facing a different direction than the feet) in most "flowing" turns, but counter is, again, an outcome, not a cause. It results primarily from the rotation of the femurs (thigh bones) in the hip sockets when the legs turn and tip, and the increased flexion of the inside leg when inclining into a turn (or the uphill leg when traversing across a slope). Being "square"(upper body facing the same direction as the feet) or "rotated" (upper body facing into the turn more than the feet) generally results from some sort of upper-body-based rotary (twisting) movements--as does excessive countering. Since these movements pretty much only cause the skis to twist to a direction somewhat across their direction of travel (that is, to skid), they almost invariably reduce speed--thus interfering with the "flow" of the center of mass. They also involve effort. So--in general--anything other than "optimal counter" (which will vary situationally) will interfere with "effortless flow."

Finally, "what happens to the flow when you carve?"

Hmm..... I would suggest that "flow" is all about "carve." The more the skis carve, the more the force from the snow is directed to the side--pushing the skier into the arc, changing direction most efficiently with least reduction of speed. The more they skid, the more a component of that force opposes the direction of the skier's travel (see Ghost's post #15 in this thread)--turning him less efficiently, while reducing speed (ie. "flow"). BUT--you'd better be keeping up with your skis when carving, moving continuously and accurately, if you want it all to happen!

Best regards,
post #34 of 36
 Thanks Bob for your welcome and your replies. I appreciate.

post #35 of 36
That's more than one question. It could take a while to answer all of the questions you asked. Let's start by mentioning that the appropriate movement for a specific turn is just that, specific to that turn. So rather than throw out a blanket statement concerning all ski turns, perhaps we could narrow down the scope to a few examples.
  • How would you move, or allow the body and feet to move, to produce a cross over transition with as much flow as possible? What would you avoid doing? It's a given that the legs would move independent from the body, but how? Flexing and extending occurs but is it safe to assume the outside leg stays pretty long? Is it safe to asume the inside leg extends? If the core is thrust into the new turn is that actually allowing it to migrate there? Are the feet the lateral pivot point and does the body move like a metronome around
  • How would you move, or allow the body and feet to move, to produce a cross through transition with as much flow as possible? What would you avoid doing?

Square or countered certainly would affect which parts of the body would move but the idea of the two intersecting paths wouldn't change. Angular momentum and the inside half moving slower than the outside half is negligible as long as the inside half isn't being thrust backwards as a result of that whole body rotary. So it's a judgment call.
post #36 of 36
 mmm...that's right...
Let's see:
Do I carve square?  Do you guys?
I'll have to actually pay attention to what precisely happens when I carve...and to what happens during the transitions (do I actively use my muscles to get the CM across in any way or do I relax the muscle and give into the forces and let them take me into the turn?


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