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Binding mount position is 99% of ski performance - Page 8

post #211 of 236

Agree with the "man". 

 

The trick is to be honest with self and keep a diary of all the skis you have and all positions used.

 

Have you ever heard of the double blind research approach ? It is used in all research designs and has application

here.

In short the skier does NOT know where the ski bindings position is since it is done by another person.

Try them. Note parameters. Performance.

 

Very soon skier will note differences as the bindings are changed position.

 

It is personal and it is variable to ski type !

 

Period.

post #212 of 236

It is too bad we can't drill skis as many times as it takes to get the right location for each ski. Demo bindings with adjustments for both toe and heel location (fore and aft) are great for that as are Marker Schizo bindings which are designed to move fore and aft.

post #213 of 236

Here you go.

 

http://www.skisport.fi/@Bin/5120/Binding+position+Benno.pdf

 

This should give you an idea of what happens.

post #214 of 236

Great post

post #215 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post
 

It is too bad we can't drill skis as many times as it takes to get the right location for each ski. Demo bindings with adjustments for both toe and heel location (fore and aft) are great for that as are Marker Schizo bindings which are designed to move fore and aft.

 

I just scored a sweet deal on some lightly used skis that have Marker Griffon bindings, but they're for a larger boot, so I would need to remount. I have no idea where I would want to mount them so the skis would feel/work right for me. Even the mount lines on the ski have a 3" range...

 

 

1/2" can make a big diff in feel. Ultimately the only thing that matters is what feels right for you and your skiing, in your boots, and even that can vary from ski to ski.

 

Given all that I'll probably pull the bindings and sell em, and install a plate/rail so I can use demo bindings and play with the fore-aft, just as MR described above. I've had many experiences on different skis where some small fore-aft movement made a big difference.

 

I like the Dynastar Fluid Binding system, but neither they nor anyone else (that I know of) make the plates the binding heel and toe pieces mount to available separately, plus you need to be able to swap in/out different width brakes. Head/Tyrolia did all that with Railflex, but that is sadly long dead now. Wish someone would do that again, but then they'd probably sell fewer bindings, so...

post #216 of 236
My wife and daughter both have adjustable bindings (ie track mounted). And it has let me play a little with for and aft mount. Similar to the study I find initially I notice a difference and then adjust body position to ski neutral (practice has made this second nature, and I'm a strong believer in learning this). Any benefits seem to cancel out after a run or two, any problems also.

On my Dynstar race skis the plate is pre tapped so you can mount any were. I find the default setting works best, and I would consider stance correction via boot adjustment first (and even there training can overcome a lot IMHO, sorry top boot guys but I did say boots first wink.gif as being to ski and achieve neutral is important). Then I'd mess with binding position to achieve achieve a specific result.

Some skis are not as well setup (or set by the company for a specific skier) that another binding position does wonders. You will find that this very quickly becomes documented. Older Nordica SLR's may perform better with a slight tweak away from the suggested mounting position depending on your STRENGTH and size.
post #217 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post
 

 

I just scored a sweet deal on some lightly used skis that have Marker Griffon bindings, but they're for a larger boot, so I would need to remount. I have no idea where I would want to mount them so the skis would feel/work right for me. Even the mount lines on the ski have a 3" range...

 

 

1/2" can make a big diff in feel. Ultimately the only thing that matters is what feels right for you and your skiing, in your boots, and even that can vary from ski to ski.

 

Given all that I'll probably pull the bindings and sell em, and install a plate/rail so I can use demo bindings and play with the fore-aft, just as MR described above. I've had many experiences on different skis where some small fore-aft movement made a big difference.

 

I like the Dynastar Fluid Binding system, but neither they nor anyone else (that I know of) make the plates the binding heel and toe pieces mount to available separately, plus you need to be able to swap in/out different width brakes. Head/Tyrolia did all that with Railflex, but that is sadly long dead now. Wish someone would do that again, but then they'd probably sell fewer bindings, so...

The front mark (+7.5) is a park/freeride mount and places the boot center over the center of the ski for a symetric position fore and aft. This is preferred by those that ski and land switch. The back mark (+0.0) is the traditional mount for forward skiing folk. That they mark every quarter centimeter in between is kind of goofy, but I suppose some will like an in between location if they ski switch some and also like to haul going forward.

 

I agree. More systems that permit movment of the binding would be nice. The Marker 'Royal family' bindings in a demo format are rock solid. The binding adjustment system has virtually no play. They are easy to come by on demo sale skis and the bindings themselves are easily removable from the track so if you can get spare tracks, you can treat them like the RailFlex system.

post #218 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post suppose some will like an in between location if they ski switch some and also like to haul going forward.

 

I agree. More systems that permit movment of the binding would be nice. The Marker 'Royal family' bindings in a demo format are rock solid. The binding adjustment system has virtually no play. They are easy to come by on demo sale skis and the bindings themselves are easily removable from the track so if you can get spare tracks, you can treat them like the RailFlex system.

 

http://markerusa.com/royal-family/

 

Are both the toe and heel positions fore-aft adjustable, or just the heel, on the "Royal Family" demo bindings?

 

EDIT: Actually I guess on the Griffon Demos they are:

 

The first generation of Jester/Griffon demo had only a heel track. The toe did not move. This increased the range of travel for the heel from approx 20mm to approx 40mm. These were made in 2008ish era, and can easily be "swapped in" to a normal set of Jester/Griffon bindings. But, they don't allow you to change your boot center because the toe is fixed.

Every generation of Jester/Griffon demo since that time has had both a specialty heel and toe track. They also have a special toe piece that looks like the Schizo. Because both the toe and heel move, these bindings accommodate an enormous range of BSL, and they let you move your boot center forward or backward like a low-rent Schizo. Unfortunately, you cannot swap the toe plate into your existing consumer-grade Jester/Griffons. They won't fit. You probably could, however swap in the demo heel track, thereby replicating the first generation of Jester/Griffon demos.

 

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/249934-WTB-Marker-Jester-Griffon-Demo-Plates-just-the-plates

 

 

Does anyone anywhere separately sell new sets of tracks for those bindings? Just the tracks?


Edited by jc-ski - 9/4/15 at 10:35am
post #219 of 236

cant praise the Aattack Demo bindings enough.  Very happy with them  

post #220 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post
 

cant praise the Attack Demo bindings enough.  Very happy with them  

 

http://www.untracked.com/p5216c26b52-14_tyrolia_attack_130lt_demo_ski_bindings.html

 

A little unclear to me: Are the toes (therefore entire fore-aft) adjustable on the Attack demos, or just the heels? And are tracks available to purchase separately? Also can you swap out the brakes to accommodate different width skis?

 

Those are the things I would want if I could have everything in a (demo) binding system.

post #221 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post
 

 

http://www.untracked.com/p5216c26b52-14_tyrolia_attack_130lt_demo_ski_bindings.html

 

A little unclear to me: Are the toes (therefore entire fore-aft) adjustable on the Attack demos, or just the heels? And are tracks available to purchase separately? Also can you swap out the brakes to accommodate different width skis?

 

Those are the things I would want if I could have everything in a (demo) binding system.

toes and heel are independently adjustable  very solid.  wide interface.  not sure about the brakes

post #222 of 236

I just received a pair of Tyrolia PRD 12 bindings which is mounted on a PowerRail with the toe and heel piece independently adjustable. For people who are looking for looking for a binding system with fore/aft adjustment, here are my impressions. It is great if you have a boot size which is right in the middle of the size range for the binding. Atlhough not exact, I estimate that a boot size of approximately 320mm will give you a full 6 cm of adjustment by looking at the halfway point on the heel piece position markings on the baseplate. The boot size range is 257-380mm so the average is 318.5mm which is similar. If you have a larger or smaller boot size, you will get less range of adjustment. Here is the reason why. The baseplate has two sets of grooved plates, one for the toe piece and one for the heel piece to attach to. Each of these are about 6 cm long. For the smallest boot size of 257mm the toe piece is in the furthest back position and cannot go back any further, and the heel piece is in the furthest forward position and cannot go any more forward, hence there is no adjustability. For the largest boot size of 380mm the toe piece is in the furthest forward position and cannot go forward any further, and the heel piece is in the furthest back position and cannot go back any further, hence there is no adjustability. Boot size in between which get a proportional amount of adjustability.

 

Comparing this to the Griffon Schizo binding, the Tyrolia PowerRail seems to be more sturdy as the Schizo binding has a metal wire which some people have reported having problems with. The PowerRail does not any wire to break. However, unless your boot size is near the sweet spot of 320mm, you will get less adjustability with the PowerRail. You have to decide how much adjustability you want and if the PowerRail system will allow for this given your boot size. The Griffon Schizo binding will get 6 cm of adjustability unless you happen to have a very small boot size. For the vast majority of adult males, this should not be a problem. Hope this helps others who are interested in the Tyrolia PowerRail binding.

post #223 of 236
It seems like this thread tells me that plates and system bindings make a ski harder to ski than anything else.
post #224 of 236

 Each year the manufacturers offer a change in topsheet and slight tip/mid/tail measurements and camber (otherwise the same ski as last year) and allow

me to buy several used sets (mostly volkl and salomon...minor fischer) and fool with tuning and mount points..a cheap guys test bed.  Being a BC 'westy' I have more fresh slighty heavy than ice and hard.  Tho' when moving from woods to woods across open trails, you get the surprise ice...So my tune is very sharp edges (slightly relieved tip and tail) and mount just a touch forward

of "mid mark'.  to quickly change direction and stance with a hop; I have found for myself that rearwards on the mounting gives me more wobble / control problems. Yet if I am late season cruising

the one or two pair mounted to the rear offer more of the big Lincoln V8 cruising feel...a touch longer hood out in front and less the Honda civic windy day feel.  And wax...lots of fresh

post #225 of 236

I have XTO 12 and I think I would go nuts if I had bindings that I could not try different positions on. I just got these and set them up at the recommended position, and I felt like I was skiing on the backs of them. I thought it was boot flex, but I did a BOF test and it looks like neutral is 20mm too far back. It was quite difficult to lean forward enough to get the skis to turn rather than skid. I just moved them 20mm forward and will try them again. I may end up somewhere in the middle.

post #226 of 236

After years of having some Schizo mounted to determine my best position on a new pair of skis, I departed from my method and had my new High Society Dr Pow skis mounted with some nice Axial 3s on the recommended line.

 

And I'm glad I did, the line is spot on perfect.  I call these babies my mud buggies - they are easy to take into the muckiest of chunky mank and the tips stay up while the feet sink and turn as normal.  Formerly ignored pillows of thick gooey old snow invites me in where I leave my best tracks.

 

In fresh consistent lighter powder these babies submarine under the deep just the way I like and turn with the same aplomb as if they are floating on top.

 

But then my Dynastat Powertracks took more than a bit of tinkering,  The skis were just too nervous then I realized the Schizos were set 1 cm forward, back at zero they were still flighty and twitchy so another cm back at -1 had them carving nicely while beginning to smear a bit more readily.  I'm going back another .5 cm to see how they smear but with Schizos this is easy.

post #227 of 236
Greetings all, I have a pair of Elan 999 Wood probably 2009 or 2010 (not certain, but the ones with the simulated wood grain cosmetic) in a 193 cm length that have been skiing horrible since first mounted. I also have a pair of probably same year Elan 888 Alu (with the aluminum finish) in a 186 cm length that ski just plain awesome, bumps, groomers, ice, even powder, these things turn on a dime and have tenacious edge hold and control and at any pace !
You can imagine that the 999's have not seen much use but now the 888´s are just plain destroyed and ready to be retired. Looking over both skis side by side I noticed that the 999's bindings are actually mounted further aft than on the 888's, even though my mid boot sole mark matches perfectly that on the ski. I would have expected that the 999's being longer, the binding would have been sitting further forward than on the 888's.
Would anyone know of an issue with the mid sole boot mark on the 999's not having been correctly placed ?
Going through some of the proposed measuring and marking instructions given in the preivious correspondances, I have found that the mark on the skis seems to be about 2.5 cm too far back.
Thanking you all in advance for your suggestions and observations !
post #228 of 236

@biglou, describe 'skiing horribly'. 

post #229 of 236

Hmmm - I had a pair of 999s (pseudo wood grain, black trim around edges?)  and I don't remember wanting to be forward... and I have an average-to-small foot so BoF would effectively be worse for me than someone with MP27+.

 

 

Describe 'horribly' - let's make sure it's not something else.

 

The problem with disregarding Elan's mounting points  - and I've done that more than once on other skis - is that it's really easy to create a ski that feels like a freight train with a 20-foot steering wheel.   Easy, even eager to start turns from a straight line but really difficult to recover/release/modify  those turns once started.  And not balanced at all in powder or 3D snow.    

post #230 of 236

The only ski I have radically changed the mounting point on was Elan's M1111. They had a mount point about 2.5 INCHES behind what would be considered normal. They were designed for powder (161/121/141) but they were overwhelmed both on hard pack and in powder by the ridiculously massive tip. Moving them forward 2.5 inches made me smile a lot more.

post #231 of 236

*grin*  I did  a +7cm mount on the old M777 (talk about freight train syndrome) but I went in the opposite direction (-2 cm) on the 1010 and liked it.

post #232 of 236
Thanks for all the good feedback, when I say ski horribly, I mean, the ski will not easily enter into a turn, the tip seems not to be "catching" when I initiate the turn and pivot the ski (I'm old school, when you actually pivoted/steered your 203, 207 or 210 cm's ski in a turn around the center of your foot, not just push on the heel or just set it on edge) and even when just setting it on edge to simply carve a turn (I realize the turn radius delta and certainly don't have the same carving "expections" as with the 888's).

All things that my 888´s do with such ease !

Again, putting the skis side by side against the wall, to me it just does not make sense that the mid sole boot mark would be about 1 cm further back on the longer 193 cm's 999´s than on the 186 cm's 888´s... Unless this was a pure powder ski. I am considering reintalling the bindings using the mid running surface/ball of the foot position.

Willl be off to Quebec city area to ski Le Massif and Mont St-Anne next week with this new set up. Looking forward to reporting the results ! Off course I'm bringing along the 888's, just in case !
post #233 of 236
Well they are a powder ski design but best do the easy stuff first a) check the tune make sure they are not detuned b) check the shovel camber in case someone stuffed them into too many hard bumps. Somehow I got the idea you are not the first owner?
post #234 of 236
WOW !!! We have great success !!! First as suggested by Cantunamunch, skis were carefully inspected, very good tune, even camber, no bent tips (These were bought new and I've skied them no more than 3 or 4 times), then proceded to make all of the necessary "scientific" measurments and calculations (I knew these 4 years in engineering school would one day come in handy !) and ended up moving the mid sole boot mark forward by 3.5 cm's.

What a difference this made, these were totally different skis than I remembered them to be, excellent turn initiation, once in the turn they pivoted rapidly and with ease, had great edge hold (springlike conditions on Wednesday and fast and hard/icy surface yesterday at Mont St-Anne) and bombing down some of the steeper runs showed great stability both in a straight line and in long GS style turns ! I am now looking forward to giving them a try in more " powdery" conditions, having moved the binding so far forward I expect I may have to drive them a bit from the back seat !

I am extremelly satisfied with the results so far, stay tuned for some more feedback following the next big dump to hit Jay Peak !!
post #235 of 236
WOW WOW WOW !!! I'm certain you guys have seen the news, major snow storm in Quebec and New England !! Just returned from Mont Sutton skiing in over 50 inches of pow !! The skiing was awesome and the 999s just floated on top of all that powder, it was a point and shoot day, the skis responded immediatelly to any input and were quick and nimble !! I'm now a true believer that proper positioning of the binding can make all difference in the world ! Hope all you get to have such great ski days !
post #236 of 236

We think you're back too soon :D;)

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