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Binding mount position is 99% of ski performance - Page 8

post #211 of 224

Agree with the "man". 

 

The trick is to be honest with self and keep a diary of all the skis you have and all positions used.

 

Have you ever heard of the double blind research approach ? It is used in all research designs and has application

here.

In short the skier does NOT know where the ski bindings position is since it is done by another person.

Try them. Note parameters. Performance.

 

Very soon skier will note differences as the bindings are changed position.

 

It is personal and it is variable to ski type !

 

Period.

post #212 of 224

It is too bad we can't drill skis as many times as it takes to get the right location for each ski. Demo bindings with adjustments for both toe and heel location (fore and aft) are great for that as are Marker Schizo bindings which are designed to move fore and aft.

post #213 of 224

Here you go.

 

http://www.skisport.fi/@Bin/5120/Binding+position+Benno.pdf

 

This should give you an idea of what happens.

post #214 of 224

Great post

post #215 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post
 

It is too bad we can't drill skis as many times as it takes to get the right location for each ski. Demo bindings with adjustments for both toe and heel location (fore and aft) are great for that as are Marker Schizo bindings which are designed to move fore and aft.

 

I just scored a sweet deal on some lightly used skis that have Marker Griffon bindings, but they're for a larger boot, so I would need to remount. I have no idea where I would want to mount them so the skis would feel/work right for me. Even the mount lines on the ski have a 3" range...

 

 

1/2" can make a big diff in feel. Ultimately the only thing that matters is what feels right for you and your skiing, in your boots, and even that can vary from ski to ski.

 

Given all that I'll probably pull the bindings and sell em, and install a plate/rail so I can use demo bindings and play with the fore-aft, just as MR described above. I've had many experiences on different skis where some small fore-aft movement made a big difference.

 

I like the Dynastar Fluid Binding system, but neither they nor anyone else (that I know of) make the plates the binding heel and toe pieces mount to available separately, plus you need to be able to swap in/out different width brakes. Head/Tyrolia did all that with Railflex, but that is sadly long dead now. Wish someone would do that again, but then they'd probably sell fewer bindings, so...

post #216 of 224
My wife and daughter both have adjustable bindings (ie track mounted). And it has let me play a little with for and aft mount. Similar to the study I find initially I notice a difference and then adjust body position to ski neutral (practice has made this second nature, and I'm a strong believer in learning this). Any benefits seem to cancel out after a run or two, any problems also.

On my Dynstar race skis the plate is pre tapped so you can mount any were. I find the default setting works best, and I would consider stance correction via boot adjustment first (and even there training can overcome a lot IMHO, sorry top boot guys but I did say boots first wink.gif as being to ski and achieve neutral is important). Then I'd mess with binding position to achieve achieve a specific result.

Some skis are not as well setup (or set by the company for a specific skier) that another binding position does wonders. You will find that this very quickly becomes documented. Older Nordica SLR's may perform better with a slight tweak away from the suggested mounting position depending on your STRENGTH and size.
post #217 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post
 

 

I just scored a sweet deal on some lightly used skis that have Marker Griffon bindings, but they're for a larger boot, so I would need to remount. I have no idea where I would want to mount them so the skis would feel/work right for me. Even the mount lines on the ski have a 3" range...

 

 

1/2" can make a big diff in feel. Ultimately the only thing that matters is what feels right for you and your skiing, in your boots, and even that can vary from ski to ski.

 

Given all that I'll probably pull the bindings and sell em, and install a plate/rail so I can use demo bindings and play with the fore-aft, just as MR described above. I've had many experiences on different skis where some small fore-aft movement made a big difference.

 

I like the Dynastar Fluid Binding system, but neither they nor anyone else (that I know of) make the plates the binding heel and toe pieces mount to available separately, plus you need to be able to swap in/out different width brakes. Head/Tyrolia did all that with Railflex, but that is sadly long dead now. Wish someone would do that again, but then they'd probably sell fewer bindings, so...

The front mark (+7.5) is a park/freeride mount and places the boot center over the center of the ski for a symetric position fore and aft. This is preferred by those that ski and land switch. The back mark (+0.0) is the traditional mount for forward skiing folk. That they mark every quarter centimeter in between is kind of goofy, but I suppose some will like an in between location if they ski switch some and also like to haul going forward.

 

I agree. More systems that permit movment of the binding would be nice. The Marker 'Royal family' bindings in a demo format are rock solid. The binding adjustment system has virtually no play. They are easy to come by on demo sale skis and the bindings themselves are easily removable from the track so if you can get spare tracks, you can treat them like the RailFlex system.

post #218 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post suppose some will like an in between location if they ski switch some and also like to haul going forward.

 

I agree. More systems that permit movment of the binding would be nice. The Marker 'Royal family' bindings in a demo format are rock solid. The binding adjustment system has virtually no play. They are easy to come by on demo sale skis and the bindings themselves are easily removable from the track so if you can get spare tracks, you can treat them like the RailFlex system.

 

http://markerusa.com/royal-family/

 

Are both the toe and heel positions fore-aft adjustable, or just the heel, on the "Royal Family" demo bindings?

 

EDIT: Actually I guess on the Griffon Demos they are:

 

The first generation of Jester/Griffon demo had only a heel track. The toe did not move. This increased the range of travel for the heel from approx 20mm to approx 40mm. These were made in 2008ish era, and can easily be "swapped in" to a normal set of Jester/Griffon bindings. But, they don't allow you to change your boot center because the toe is fixed.

Every generation of Jester/Griffon demo since that time has had both a specialty heel and toe track. They also have a special toe piece that looks like the Schizo. Because both the toe and heel move, these bindings accommodate an enormous range of BSL, and they let you move your boot center forward or backward like a low-rent Schizo. Unfortunately, you cannot swap the toe plate into your existing consumer-grade Jester/Griffons. They won't fit. You probably could, however swap in the demo heel track, thereby replicating the first generation of Jester/Griffon demos.

 

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/249934-WTB-Marker-Jester-Griffon-Demo-Plates-just-the-plates

 

 

Does anyone anywhere separately sell new sets of tracks for those bindings? Just the tracks?


Edited by jc-ski - 9/4/15 at 10:35am
post #219 of 224

cant praise the Aattack Demo bindings enough.  Very happy with them  

post #220 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post
 

cant praise the Attack Demo bindings enough.  Very happy with them  

 

http://www.untracked.com/p5216c26b52-14_tyrolia_attack_130lt_demo_ski_bindings.html

 

A little unclear to me: Are the toes (therefore entire fore-aft) adjustable on the Attack demos, or just the heels? And are tracks available to purchase separately? Also can you swap out the brakes to accommodate different width skis?

 

Those are the things I would want if I could have everything in a (demo) binding system.

post #221 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post
 

 

http://www.untracked.com/p5216c26b52-14_tyrolia_attack_130lt_demo_ski_bindings.html

 

A little unclear to me: Are the toes (therefore entire fore-aft) adjustable on the Attack demos, or just the heels? And are tracks available to purchase separately? Also can you swap out the brakes to accommodate different width skis?

 

Those are the things I would want if I could have everything in a (demo) binding system.

toes and heel are independently adjustable  very solid.  wide interface.  not sure about the brakes

post #222 of 224

I just received a pair of Tyrolia PRD 12 bindings which is mounted on a PowerRail with the toe and heel piece independently adjustable. For people who are looking for looking for a binding system with fore/aft adjustment, here are my impressions. It is great if you have a boot size which is right in the middle of the size range for the binding. Atlhough not exact, I estimate that a boot size of approximately 320mm will give you a full 6 cm of adjustment by looking at the halfway point on the heel piece position markings on the baseplate. The boot size range is 257-380mm so the average is 318.5mm which is similar. If you have a larger or smaller boot size, you will get less range of adjustment. Here is the reason why. The baseplate has two sets of grooved plates, one for the toe piece and one for the heel piece to attach to. Each of these are about 6 cm long. For the smallest boot size of 257mm the toe piece is in the furthest back position and cannot go back any further, and the heel piece is in the furthest forward position and cannot go any more forward, hence there is no adjustability. For the largest boot size of 380mm the toe piece is in the furthest forward position and cannot go forward any further, and the heel piece is in the furthest back position and cannot go back any further, hence there is no adjustability. Boot size in between which get a proportional amount of adjustability.

 

Comparing this to the Griffon Schizo binding, the Tyrolia PowerRail seems to be more sturdy as the Schizo binding has a metal wire which some people have reported having problems with. The PowerRail does not any wire to break. However, unless your boot size is near the sweet spot of 320mm, you will get less adjustability with the PowerRail. You have to decide how much adjustability you want and if the PowerRail system will allow for this given your boot size. The Griffon Schizo binding will get 6 cm of adjustability unless you happen to have a very small boot size. For the vast majority of adult males, this should not be a problem. Hope this helps others who are interested in the Tyrolia PowerRail binding.

post #223 of 224
It seems like this thread tells me that plates and system bindings make a ski harder to ski than anything else.
post #224 of 224

 Each year the manufacturers offer a change in topsheet and slight tip/mid/tail measurements and camber (otherwise the same ski as last year) and allow

me to buy several used sets (mostly volkl and salomon...minor fischer) and fool with tuning and mount points..a cheap guys test bed.  Being a BC 'westy' I have more fresh slighty heavy than ice and hard.  Tho' when moving from woods to woods across open trails, you get the surprise ice...So my tune is very sharp edges (slightly relieved tip and tail) and mount just a touch forward

of "mid mark'.  to quickly change direction and stance with a hop; I have found for myself that rearwards on the mounting gives me more wobble / control problems. Yet if I am late season cruising

the one or two pair mounted to the rear offer more of the big Lincoln V8 cruising feel...a touch longer hood out in front and less the Honda civic windy day feel.  And wax...lots of fresh

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