New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Back to the Back Seat

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 
I'm asking this in the context of the outstanding "Any comment on this picture?" and "Back seat skiers" threads.

Now that I have all three of the September ski mags in hand, I've been vainly searching for a photo of someone skiing moderately deep powder on a reasonably steep slope who is *not* in what most of us would probably call the back seat to some extent. I've also been trying to replay my mental side-view images of lots of good powder skiers (including many full cert instructors) and most of those also seem somewhat back.

I'm not trying to be a smart-a**, but could someone post a shot of of a skier in deep powder who *looks* like they are completely centered or perhaps even a bit forward?

I've seen zillions of them where the skiers are on groomers, race courses, corn, even junk, but if you look closely at most deep powder pictures, it seems that the skier's weight *looks* like it's further back than would be recommended.

Just wondering.

Bob
post #2 of 21
Bob,

I just received this years first rags; Ski and Skiing.

Particularly in Ski Magazine, most of the turns (pictures of) were not impressive to me. And what is it with these folks? Most of time, the look on their face, looks like they're trying to have a bowl movement, not relax and ski.

This gets back to a topic we've often discussed, without much success. What is, what isn't, good skiing?

Cheers,
post #3 of 21
In powder. keep in mind that the "effective" slope is modified by the "floatation" of the ski.

You are not in contact with the mountain nor the angle of repose of the snow. Rather, a cushion of snow builds up under the fore part of the ski.

What would appear to be "sitting back" may just be matching the effective slope angle.

CalG
post #4 of 21
[ August 19, 2002, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: ryan ]
post #5 of 21
Quote:
Originally posted by SCSA:
...And what is it with these folks? Most of time, the look on their face, looks like they're trying to have a bowl movement ...
. ROTFLMAO !!!! .

I thought I was the only one with a perverted enough mind to think the same thing. The mouths on those people crack me up. They are hideous. No normal human would ever hold their mouths in those positions even at the dentist's office. I suspect the photographer told the skiers to try to "look dramatic", and instead they come out looking like when one of the late night TV comedy shows does a sham interview using still pictures of Arrafat and Clinton and then superimpose a moving mouth on each. Good call, SCSA!

Tom / PM

[ August 14, 2002, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: PhysicsMan ]
post #6 of 21
[ August 19, 2002, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: ryan ]
post #7 of 21
Thread Starter 
Ryan:

That's a beautiful picture, but I'm not sure whether it's supposed to illustrate a centered skier or a backseater.

Looks pretty back to me, even taking into account CalG's excellent point about effective slope angles.

Not only that, the snow isn't even very deep (although I would certainly love to be in his boots right now).

Bob

Still looking.
post #8 of 21
ryan,

bob said deep powder!
post #9 of 21
[ August 19, 2002, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: ryan ]
post #10 of 21
Thread Starter 
Ryan:

You're doing great. I'm gettin' all excited.

I did qualify the "moderately" by saying that it should be deep enough (and steep enough) that you really wouldn't actually be skiing the old snow surface (the base).

I guess where I was going with this question is that several people have criticized the position of the skiers in some of the photos we seen. I'd love to see a side view shot of someone who passes the backseat test.

Bob

BTW, the last one you posted (the guy in the yellow jacket) looks extremely good. I think he's right on top of his skis. It's not a side view, however, and I suspect it's not very steep.
post #11 of 21
[ August 19, 2002, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: ryan ]
post #12 of 21
I think that CalG really hit the nail on the head with his post.

Here are a few pics from the Alta site, showing copyright info in the corner, which should be ok, right?

This one is a good side shot, however, its tought to see his body position. It looks like he is over his skis, but not so sure. Also note that he is showing Alf Engen's powder technique.

[Photos removed. Please do not post copyrighted photos. -AC]

Here is another one that I like. If your up with Alta's web page, you know that this guy can ski, and ski well. I've run into him a few times on the slopes and I'll verify, he understands how to ski the pow. Do we really think he is in the backseat, oris he back on his skis, using the slope to bank off the snow? I am also going to say that his shins are pushing against his boots in this picture.

I'm with Bob, I'd like to see a picture of anybody, showing good powder technique, not slightly leaning towards the slope. I personally think that this is good technique.

[ August 20, 2002, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: AC ]
post #13 of 21
[ August 19, 2002, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: ryan ]
post #14 of 21
Don't forget, gravity works straight down. Not perpendicular to the slope. If you locate the center of gravity and draw a line straight down the point of contact will be well forward in most of those shots.
Ron LeMaster addresses this pretty well in The Skiers Edge.
post #15 of 21
This is absolutely ludicrous. I have looked at 5 pictures of folks in various states of pow pow.
Thanks Ryan.

These people appear to be a tad in the backseat, not quite good form, darnnitt. Well you know what? These people are rippin it. You are sitting in a freakin beanbag chair in the middle of August. Who cares where their weight is. Go mow the lawn.

What's the problem with the backseat? Very effective for certain conditions.... The way I'm reading it here is like it's the devils work?
post #16 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Exit 154:


What's the problem with the backseat? Very effective for certain conditions....
Exit 154:

That was kinda my point. Thank you.

Slatz:

I agree completely that some of what *appears* to be backseat is partly an optical illusion caused by the effective slope angle being shallower than the apparent slope angle.

Having said that, I still truly believe that most good powder skiers will ski deep, steep powder with their weight further back than some on this board seem to believe is "right". It may be only fractionally, but their weight *is* further back in those conditions. Put the same skier on the same slope in wind-buffed or corn or junky conditions and you'll see their weight move significantly forward.

What I was trying to point out is that you can find thousands of pictures of racers, instructors, free-skiers, whatever, on steep groomers who are totally centered and pressuring the cuffs of their boots. It is *way* harder to find photos showing the same thing in powder skiers. Something must be going on there.

Just my opinion, of course.

Bob
post #17 of 21
Last night I re-read that part in The Skier's Edge. With no friction one of the forces is perpendicular to the ski's base. However when no sliding occurs(friction) the force of gravity works straight down. The racer skis hard ice(little friction). In powder there is a fair amount of friction and if the skier didn't adjust their weight back a little to compensate they'd "go over the handlebars". Ron addresses this in that chapter.
post #18 of 21
Bob.Peters, check out most of the photos (from the mid-90s) in R. Mark Elling's The All-Mountain Skier. Plenty of powder shots of well-balanced skiers there.
post #19 of 21
Quote:
Originally posted by Exit 154:
These people appear to be a tad in the backseat, not quite good form, darnnitt. Well you know what? These people are rippin it. You are sitting in a freakin beanbag chair in the middle of August. Who cares where their weight is. Go mow the lawn.

What's the problem with the backseat? Very effective for certain conditions.... The way I'm reading it here is like it's the devils work?
post #20 of 21
Quote:
Originally posted by Exit 154:
This is absolutely ludicrous. I have looked at 5 pictures of folks in various states of pow pow.
Thanks Ryan.

These people appear to be a tad in the backseat, not quite good form, darnnitt. Well you know what? These people are rippin it. You are sitting in a freakin beanbag chair in the middle of August. Who cares where their weight is. Go mow the lawn.

What's the problem with the backseat? Very effective for certain conditions.... The way I'm reading it here is like it's the devils work?
Seems to sum it up pretty well.
post #21 of 21
OK it is too EARLY to show these kinds of pictures to crazy people like us. We won’t have snow until DECEMBER so quit it please!

Now all seriousness aside you need to define centered. Bob Peters picture post shows a centered skier at the start of his turn and as the turn follows too completion the skier appears to be slightly more to aft than centered. This is really normal in most turns. In powder snow it visually heightens the look due to the effect the snow depth has on the ski shovel to tail and the vertical of the run. Actually the skier travels on a slightly different plane than the run. It is a misconception skiers can stay dead centered throughout the entire turn. The centrifugal forces, speed, terrain, and the body versus ski traveling at different rate of speed due to mass and friction etc. will change a skier position during a turn from centered to slightly aft IF the skier starts centered. Bottom line a skier should be center at turn initiation and taking everything else in to consideration will move slightly aft as the turn reaches completion where upon the skier re-centers as they release their edges laterally and initiate the new turn. One reason why moving the center of mass to the future is critical.

When we are talking about a skier actually in the back seat we are talking about a skier “parking” in the backseat. The skier not only initiates from the “rear”, excuse the pun, but gains more rear at turn completion. If you feel a slight heel pressure at the end of your turn on a groomer it is not abnormal. Too many times we over emphasize the backseat as though it doesn’t happen and then students think every time they feel a little heel pressure they are bad people. (No they are only bad people when they forget the tip. [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) If you think you are really back seated to the point your mechanics are suffering ski a few bimps to bumps and they will tell you real quick!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching