or Connect
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Help please - hip(s)

post #1 of 48
Thread Starter 
OK -can anybody here please give me any advice that may help me out.

I'm currently having trouble 'dropping' my right hip down & back whn turning to the right.
The hips start in a reasonable position through turn initiation - then drop through the turn....
This is easy to see in my long turns - but causes me most havoc in short turns -
where I also start doing strange leg things to accomodate this.

Any handy ideas on a focus to stop this happening?
Oh & yes - I CAN get correct position with concentration on SOME right hand turns(long)
Just it is tricky

BTW - same trouble happens in slalom rollerblade turns - b ut that was nearly cured by summers end

post #2 of 48
disski. Are you able to accomplish the maneuver on the left side? My views on what the hips should do may differ from the rest, but if you can do things on one side, you may be able to transfer info from one side to the other if you pay enough attention on your left turns. I'll come back after work and see if I can do better!!!

see you then,
Spag :
post #3 of 48

If the hip is moving, something else isn't.

Start "viewing" yourself from the snow up, and compare both turns. I'm assuming you are in alignment (if not-do it!), because otherwise we'll have to deal with leg length, canting, etc...

Second, check flexibility and "sequential/simultaneous" movement. Is one leg stronger than the other, so instead of using the skiis to turn, you are forcing one turn?

Third. Could it be the equipment? I had a pair of mismatched skiis!! Until I discovered that the flex was different, one turn was always lousy. Try switching your skiis.

Hope this will get some responses going for you. Of course, no guarentee.
post #4 of 48
Disski. Please clarify. are you trying to "drop" the hip? Or is it happenening and you don't want it to? I think I mis-read your post earlier.

Spag :
post #5 of 48

Movement of the hips should be of concern, unless you are working on countering or going back to nuetral at the start of a new turn. If you think of every movement starts with the feet, you will have mastered a lot of movements. Movements that start with the knees or hips involve the gross muscles that lead to over-rotating, etc, etc.

Without seeing you ski, it is pretty tough to analyse what you are doing. I hope that this has helped.
post #6 of 48
Thread Starter 
Sorry - that wasn't very clear...
Hip is dropping down & back in right hand turns ONLY - want this to stop...

& yeah Keetov - it is because I am NOT moving(extending flexing) legs on that turn side - I seem to want to 'push off' or brace my down hill leg quite often(worsens when I am tense or fretting about stuff - esp snowboard atacks)

I appear to have some minor alignment issues(esp canting related) on right leg particularly. However my instructor feels they are not relevant to the issue - I can & do move correctly on SOME turns(mostly long ones) & the percentage improves when I concentrate(with him yelling at me which bits to move works even better).

Re the right leg alignment thing - that foot has problems - walking orthotic has about a 9/10 correction the foot 'twists' on the bottom of the leg(below ankle). I'm told this shouldn't be a problem in ski boots however - as I don't flex & push off as when walkng. Also when I fenced this was my lunging forward leg - the knee tends to roll inwards as the leg flexes. For fencing I learnt to control that movement - by using thigh & hip to stabilise knee - to compensate for the unstable foot. It may simply be a matter of a 'bad' muscle movement I learnt from this - that I need to 'unlearn'.

I'm just after any handy hints someone may have - I am struggling with it & sometimes other input just provides the connection I need to 'see' how to fix the problem.

post #7 of 48

!@#$%^&* They told you that the relationship of your foot to your leg wouldn't matter in ski boots. The foot is the base of the kenitic chain and the ankle is the first flexible connection along that chain. Small changes in the relationship of the foot to the lower leg through the ankle produce large changes in the parts of the chain further along the line (the knees the hips, the CM). What a ski boot does is try to force a "normal" relationship onto a body part that isn't quite normal. The more successful the boot is in doing this the more it is going to have an effect on the parts above. The droping of the hip might be where your body is compensating for what is happening down at your feet.

A skier does what they must to make the skis turn. Someone who doesn't know how to use their feet effectively will rotate their upper bodies because it is the only way that they can get the skis to turn. Whenever a skier has been trained in efficent movements yet an inefficent movement persists then I have to ask why they "must" make that movement. I usually suspect some kind of alignment issue to be present and in your case with the info you have given us it is almost certain that alignment is somehow involved. The more I learn about alignment the more I tend to think that there is no such thing as a minor alignment issue.

When you concentrate and make the move "correctly" how does the turn feel at your feet, better or worse than when you let the hip drop?

Its late here so I'll wait to say more until tomorrow,

post #8 of 48
Is it possible you are simply not active enough with your inside ski. I am trying to visualize your skiing and I “see” that as you make a right turn your right hip drops in and back. If we take our view to the feet, since we are connected there too, I see the ski “lagging” behind the turn, At this point if you agree a partial answer might be you are lazy on this side so be more active through the turn. You previous experiences could be part of the problem. Use both feet to ski through the turn.

If you do not “see” this then lets move our view upward to the shoulder and hands, hand position can be important to your skiing and in particular from beginner to advanced intermediate, do you pull your inside hand and or shoulder a little uphill as you turn or move your left hand forward causing a slight rotation of the shoulders/hips. Little habits like this are hard to detect and magnify i.e. slightly pulling back the hand, shoulders goes a little farther back, and then hip a little more.

Just a few ideas I have, I don’t want to slam you with too much at one time. Visualize your skiing and see if these ideas help. I am sure others will have further thoughts. In truth, while alignment could always be a part of the problem and correction would eliminate at least that portion and should be made, I doubt in this instance it is “the” reason you have developed a right turn habit for want of better words.

Have a GREAT day!
post #9 of 48
Thread Starter 
Ydnar - my feeling was always that a foot that was so inherently unstable for walking would have problems - but we do not really have podiatrists with much ski boot experience here... Also a lack of really good bootfitters... Everyone insists my foot should be fine when locked into a ski boot (hmmm)
I am dubious about boot fitters checking canting - the right leg seems fine until I flex(weighted especially) - I know this from fencing & they all check in static positions - which I cna hold straight of course - I spent years learning just that or risk a 'thwack' with 3 feet of steel from the coach.
Instructor feels I have some minor canting problem despite claims by boot fitters that that leg is OK - but he thinks as I can make the turn OK when harassed enough times that that is not the issue.

John - ONLY the hip is a problem(& legs as described above) & LEFT turn is FINE.

Remember I do have poor feedback mechanisms - so I really do LEARN muscle movements in a fairly 'set' manner - could the movemnet be my old fencing move to stabilise a knee?
post #10 of 48
disski:I think the place to start first is with your alignment. You also may need some type of custom footbed or orthodic in both your ski boots and roller blades.The really big clue is that you experience the same type of problem in both sports [ skiing and roller blading,] so your problem may not be technique related.

Once the alighnment/footbed/orthodic issues have been solved, then the question of technique becomes more relavent assuming the problems that you are curerntly having, persist.

Where to start: p 166 of the Sept.2002 issue of Ski mag. where they list their idea of the "gold medal" ski shops. If one of them isn't near you, try a sports medicine clinic and where they can possibily direct you to a someone that deals with custom footbeds/orthodics.

If during this coming ski season, after footbeds and lessons, your problem still persists, then a thorough examination by a doctor specializing in sport medicine may be appropriate.
post #11 of 48
Your RH only hip is dropping in and back.

Hip In(side) the turn. – Knee moves to the inside of turn.

1.Bow legged right leg (knock kneed left leg) – Correct with cant(s)

2.Dropping inside hand in and back err goes shoulder and hip (both hips actually). What is the left hip doing but following? Reverse countered uphill. Keep LH hip square in the DIRECTION of the turn.

3.Shoulders tipped inside – Correct with less forward pressure on RH boot cuff or cuffs. Due you tend to stem on this side when you release to the LH turn? Then cuff pressure may be the key. Feel the boot to initiate but do not crush it!

4.Counter rotating uphill – Keep hips square to the turn DIRECTION. Flow with the turn. What are the hands doing?

Hip Back – Inside ski/foot is lagging behind outside ski

1.Active Inside Ski – Initiate turn with inside ski more actively and guide ski constantly through the turn along with the outside ski.

2.Weight Distribution – Standing predominately on inside ski not allowing ski to stay as active as outside ski. Outside ski is light and easily directed while inside ski is over weighted and “braking”. Two skis with drastically different mechanics occurring through the turn. Stay centered on booth feet.

Just a few ideas that may help.

“Skiing is a TWO footed sport”
post #12 of 48
Thread Starter 
Thanks guys

Wink - I would if I lived in the USA - any ideas for here??????

I was told it is my right hip only

If I hold my arms out dead straight holding poles between them & stretch them as hard as possible I can think really hard about right hip forward & up & left back & can get the correct position.

With LOTS of help(yelling etc) I can get it in a normal ski position in a long turn.

The weird bit was I apparently START the turn with correct position - then get out through the turn. ie I am not doing this to initiate but seem unable to deal with the forces through the turn.

Thanks again folks I'll see if I can find a sports physio to at least check some of my leg anatomy out a bit better & just keep trying
post #13 of 48

it is almost certain that alignment is somehow involved. The more I learn about alignment the more I tend to think that there is no such thing as a minor alignment issue
How true! Also, the foot is in a ski boot not a cast. It (and the ankle) need to be able to move quite actively while we ski. If there is a foot problem seek out a podiatrist with some knowledge of skiing. When skiing the foot is used differently than when walking (laterally as opposed to fore-aft). My boot fitter makes different foot beds for my ski boots and street shoes.

Is it possible that though your legs are the same length that one tibia is not straight. This is something that is often overlooked.
post #14 of 48

As the result of injury I do have a short leg. IT took about three different heal lift adjustments to get the lift right. Finally I talked to the orthopedic surgeon and was told that the only way to accurately measure the limb length discrepency is by using x-rays. So after one more dose of radiation (hee hee) I was finally able to get it right. Now if I could just get my street shoes fixed!
post #15 of 48
disski: I have no specific recommendations for Australia, except to find a good ski specialtiy shop with an excellent boot fitter that understands about footbeds/orthodics,and alignment.
post #16 of 48
Thread Starter 
Thanks Tom
The only podiatrist I can find here with skiing/boot fitting knowledge is a guy who is a xc skier & has been fitting xc boots & walking boots for years.
I purchased my current walking boots from him.

Of course even a plastic tele boot has foot flex - so the mechanics are not the same as Alpine - I'm a bit hesitant after having poor experiences with Surefoot here re my original custom footbeds.

The leg itself is straight - according to the podiatrist - I can sit on the couch with legs extended straight & the feet off the end - the right foot just 'hangs' out by a few centimetres even though the leg is in a line with the other. I am starting to wonder if I don't in fact have a SMALL leg length problem too - just a feeling but I notice I always weight 1 leg a little more when standing.(I stand all day at work)

Does anyone know where I can find good info on ski mechanics & boot fitting issues?
post #17 of 48
Thread Starter 
Thankyou again to everyone

Have now had 4 days back with the instructor that is annoyed about the hip bit. Spent 1.5 of those days telemarking(well trying to)
After a few more days of yelling about hips & left leg I am getting a bit better at getting that hip position right. It seems I have NO problem (& have never had) in a medium radius turn. This hip thing has always existed in the long & short turns - just there was more important stuff to fix before. He insists it only drops right at the END of a turn - & he thinks it is me trying to deal with end of turns. As the constant yelling induces changes he thinks it is a discipline issue & the alignment is secondary but we are working on fixing the alignment too - as he thinks my alignment problems will soon start to be an issue in my skiing.

Have been to see the local physiotherapist - right leg is about 1cm shorter than left. Q angles are 15degrees for right & 13 for left leg - which they say is fine. They say my legs & hips are straight & agree my FOOT is twisted on the leg - below ankle. They think they may know a podiatrist for me that they can get to build an orthotic for skiing.
post #18 of 48
Good luck. You seem to be on the right track.
post #19 of 48

Soudns like you are on the right track. Good luck.
post #20 of 48

I am still tending to think that there is a reason for your dropping your hip and that the best thing is to identify just what is causing you to have to do that. It should not be so difficult to train your body to move the hip in what should be a more efficient way. What should happen if you have been making an inefficient move and are then shown a more efficient movement is that you quickly adopt the new movement because it works better. Whenever a student has a hard time making such a change I am looking for the reason why. There is a reason for them making the move in the first place and a reason for them having a difficult time changing that movement.

One thought, because the hip thing happens in the right turn it is natural to think that it has something to do with that turn, but you say that it happens at the end of the turn so one possibility is that it actually has something to do with your preparing for the fact that you are about to change direction and turn left.

This is of course all guess work because I have never seen you ski but making this change shouldn't be as hard as it seems to be.

post #21 of 48
I had the same problem and it was a function on my short leg. It was once thought to be a centimeter short though it really isn't that short over lifting the footbed resulted in a hip problem caused by balance issues on the other side which was effectively artificially short.
post #22 of 48
Disski, is your handicap more severe on one side, maybe just subtle enough that you didn't notice it until now?
post #23 of 48
Thread Starter 
milesb - as I have been told I have NO proprioception it would seem unlikely that I have some more in one part of me. More likely I have better COMPENSATION mechanisms in my dominant side(right handed). Although I am always better at controlling my LEFT hand/arm in term of general position(ie not for a particular movement). We think this is because the RIGHT one is the one I use to do things that I WATCH myself do(pour tea/coffee - write) the poor old left one would have needed to behave at school - so the person seated next to it didn't complain.

Ydnar - ummmmmmm actually it took them MONTHS to teach me to flex my ankles! It does seem odd though that in this case I KNOW HOW TO MOVE - because I do it in left turn & in about 20% of turns on right side. Generally once I can do movements they are pretty dialled in - because they take sooooooooo long to learn.
post #24 of 48

I have been lurking on this forum for a year and a half and have enjoyed the posts. I guess it’s time I contribute in a small way.

Disski, you have been given a lot of very good comments about your dropping right hip, most of them relating to anatomical or equipment difficulties. Independent of any anatomic reason, it may just be habit or you may have to overcome alignment with a better compensatory effort. That hip needs to stay up.

If you want a task to help a unilateral butt dropper, try shuffling your right foot as you turn. When the right foot shuffle is the inside foot, it tends to straighten both legs and keep the lazy inside hip up and forward. People who like to hunker down and relax their hips find that shuffling the inside leg helps to keep them up and forward.

When you go to a bar and restaurant to eat, you often relax your thighs and hips to “sit down” to a lower table. If you are going to sit at the bar, you will tense the hip and legs to “sit up” to the taller barstool. When skiing, keep the inside hip tension as if you are “sitting up” to the taller barstool.

When the right foot shuffle is the outside foot, the inside ski needs to become more active with it’s edging. Let us know if it works.
post #25 of 48
Good comment David & welcome to the forum.

One way to do this to assist the start of the turn with the inside ski is to think of raising your inside hip slightly to start the turn, rolling the inside ski towards the little toe side, and then make sure you are actively guiding/steering both feet around the turn.

If you notice though the "problem" is not at the start but the end of the turn. I suspicion the inside ski is getting lazy just before the start of the new turn. Too early preparation possibly and or a slight relaxed traverse not long mind you just relaxed. What we might call a "dead spot". It could be simply not moving into the future of the new turn with the center of mass.

Have a Great Day!
post #26 of 48
Thread Starter 
Thanks David - but I really don't want to be straightening legs at all.
I will have no problem with the hip when I can remember to NOT straighten the outside leg(left leg)too much. ie to NOT push off it early in turn. That is why my instructor yells at me all the time about 'knee' - it is a reminder to keep that knee 'soft' through that turn. If he yells 'knee' at every RIGHT turn I tend to succeed.
post #27 of 48
Diski, I havn't seen anything on how athletic you might be, Do you have a strong torso? Or Are you an aggressive skier? Most people I encounter with this problem are not real aggresive for one reason or another. As well as all the other possibilities mentioned. Also is your right HAND dropping as well as your hip?Shoulder? It would be nice to see a clip of you skiing!!! mabee were on to something here!!! Anyway being you are aware of the problem and all the fine advice you have recieved just keep trying things till you get it. You will!!!!! Dan
post #28 of 48

How can you drop your right hip without bending your knee? The straighter (not straight) leg I am referring to is the upper leg/thigh/hip area. Many skiers when flexing through their turns will flex primarily in the hips and knees, this can tend to drop the hip down and back. Dropping the inside hip is common. Slow shuffling forward and back of the inside foot will help lessen this butt drop. Try it, and then report back.

Instead of flexing through the hips, try to settle forward through your ankles. This keeps the ankle joint active and your hips are up and forward. Good Luck!

post #29 of 48
Disski, if you want to "soften" use of the left knee in the right turn, is that because you're trying to push the inside edge of the outside ski into the snow for grip? If so, try thinking about edging the outside ski by lifting the outside edge of that foot rather than by pressing on the inside edge of the foot. The latter perspective tends to make you tense the leg more. Lifting the outside edge of the foot relieves some of that tension.
post #30 of 48
Thread Starter 
skimo - no I'm the least agressive skier you have ever seen
Also due to my extreme age(>40) I would not claim to be athletic
Hand & shoulder do NOT drop(this is all from my instructor)
He insists I rotate right hip back & down & left hip forward.
If I think about pulling left hip back I can fix it.
Short turns don't have time for thinking - but when I work on it in long turns they automatically follow. For short turns I do think 'soft left leg' before I start out - it helps too.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching