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Carving on steep terrain - Page 2

post #31 of 56
"Carving is the best feeling on ski's"


Oh....ok
post #32 of 56
The focus on carving is misunderstood. No one will claim to do clean arc to arc pencil line on every single piece of terrain, and I don't think anybody really advocates this as the appropriate approach to the mountain. What some instructors assert is that the movements that produces these clean carved turns can be modulated to also produce smeared turns, but many movements that produce a smeared turn will not allow for effective carving (and are sub-optimal ways to produce the non-carved turn).
post #33 of 56
Thanks Ghost - appreciate the experienced and thoughtful perspective.
Some further observations or questions if you like:
#2: "A form of carving where the same principle is applied except using the entire base of both skis as edges feels great in many places off the maps."
Interesting choice of language, since I still do not entirely understand what folks mean by "carving" in powder, since the whole point of the little I know of powder skiing is to ski with the skis closer together, and "more" dual-footed skiing rather than the usual downhill leg dominance. That makes perfect sense since the skis closer together simulate a platform with a larger surface area supporting the skier. Your description above is pithy, made me smile actually, since the "carver" in powder is using the base of both skis as edges, i.e. skis are at angle but there is significant use of the bigger surface area to enhance flotation and stability, i.e. no one is railing it in powder. yes?

This jives with the notion that snowboarders have an advantage in powder where naturally they carve almost anything by design once they have learnt to actually snowboard (not those who lay the board out horizontally across the fall line, i.e. perpendicular to it, and scrape their way to the bottom); and many far better than me have said, it is in powder that snowboarders have a distinct advantage over skiers in speed, elevation and stability. I would'nt know, I clearly do not snowboard but the simple mechanics and physics seem pretty logical. After all, there is a reason skiers use "fat" skis for powder.

#5 & #7: "Constant speed is easily attained with carving; it's just that that constant speed is your terminal velocity for the given slope, and can be adjusted somewhat by stance." Terminal Velocity ! Whoa! The whole point I thought was and strive to attain is a velocity I am comfortable with throughout the turn, not the limiting velocity attainable from gravity subject to the friction on the skis from the slope! Don't know about you, but the faster one goes as things get steep, and/or complicated (i.e. variable terrain - ice, bumps, piles, etc) the odds of serious damage from an accident or error rise remarkably quickly regardless of skier ability, in fact, I'd wager that the faster you go, the potential for catastrophic loss of control rises pretty sharply along with that acceleration(somewhat tautological). Please correct my impression if need be.

#6: I am learning how to ski (2 years pretty much to the date) on upstate NY, hardpack, ice, and pretty crappy and rare grooming (that's why I have learnt to like a place called jiminy peak, discovered this season because of my boy's race being held there, the grooming is/was incredible), but its been hell of an experience. But have skiied quite varied terrain in Sunshine Village, Alberta; Lech-Zurs, Austria and Alta, Utah; and have had a few face plants, no, face spears (where the head and shoulders were submerged and legs and ski tails were visible to the bemused observer) in powder and wind-crusted deep snow at sunshine and utah, hit a tree very slowly with my knee and am glad it was my knee, it felt like a bomb went off, well, no trees for me for now, my boy loves them and once in a while I have forgotten my natural aversion and followed him in, and in some steep, narrow, gullied tree trails and what a mighty struggle to extricate myself in one piece, and he is usually waiting out there far down in the clear and yells "i've been waiting for you for SO LONG!".

Who carves a 50deg sustained steep? That is hop-pedal or whatever you want to call it territory, i.e. get out of the fall-line fast, hang around in the fall-line, and well...could be a "see you later" , no?

Freeski919: Thank you for the precision in your remarks. Perhaps I did not express my self well, what I mean to say is even when carving on edge, one can and does often dynamically change the turn radius and hence the turn shape during the progression of the turn by changing the edge angle and flex in the ski with changes in pressure and angle of the foot/knee. That was all, but you are correct, my prose was somewhat colloquial. Note, I am a beginner, not an instructor.

onyxj: That is a helpful observation. The progression from carve to smear is easier than smear to carve, or something to that effect. One thing my non-professional eye has certainly noticed, those who learnt to ski decades ago, and have not transitioned to carving much, still smear turns so gracefully.



post #34 of 56
If you think about what you're doing when you carve a turn on hardpack, you will see that you are shaping the ski and riding a decambered ski along it's long axis, with part of the base, the part with the metal edge and depending on how hard the snow is and how deep the trenches are that you leave the part beside the metal edge running along the grove you cut in the snow.  Skiing in deep snow is no different in principal, the application differs a bit.  On hardpack the sidecut and tipping angle interact with the plane of the snow surface to produce a curved ski; in deep snow your weight, ski flex, and varying degrees of floatation due to sidecut interact with tipping to create the shape.  On hardpack, only a small bit of the base runs along the groove; in deep snow the entire surface of both bases run along the groove.  The limits in what the snow can hold and how versus hardpack are somewhat limiting, but the principle's the same.  The point to trying to use your bases as a single platform is to make it easier to control them; it gets very difficult when differentially loaded skis seek diverging paths, and the lack of that solid base of support at a fixed vertical surface makes diverging paths much more likely if you make any balance or weighting mistakes.

Check it out.

http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/8529/you-can-carve-a-turkey-but-can-you-carve-whipped-cream/30

Spend enough time at high speeds, and they don't seem that high; I'm quite comfortable at fairly high speeds, provided it's not too bumpy, the changes in slope are smooth, and you don't have to violate any physical laws to make the required turns in order to avoid splatting a rock face or tree.  Skis do make a difference too.  Speeds at about 50 mph seem pedestrian on 208 SG skis, fast on 165 cm sl skis, and downright scary on beginner/intermediate level skis. 
post #35 of 56
checked it out, very appropos, thx
post #36 of 56
Carving in its simple form = the tail of the ski following the tip in the same track. There are very few if any pure-perfect carved turns.
In spring mashed potato snow (coming soon to a place near you) if you are having to force your turns you are a long way from carving and high up on the mountain where there still is that deep fluffy powder if you are fighting to turn you are along way from carving. JMO The only time I try and "smear a turn" is to slowww down. But enjoy your skiing however you turn.
post #37 of 56
The OP addressed whether carving was possible on steep terrain.

not whether it was the best approach to skiing complicated terrain and restricted chutes and tree glades. other threads have addressed the best techniques for controlling direction and speed in those situations.
post #38 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

The OP addressed whether carving was possible on steep terrain.

not whether it was the best approach to skiing complicated terrain and restricted chutes and tree glades. other threads have addressed the best techniques for controlling direction and speed in those situations.

Yep, its possible and practical to carve on the steeper terrain, although you must be comfortable with speed and you must finish the  previous turn (most folks don't) before starting the new turn. The acceleration of the new turn is quite satisfying but you must know and be comfortable with the speed obtained  prior to the finishing of that turn (speed slows considerable during the finish).
Skiing steeps is like skiing bumps, if you are comfortable it shows, and if not it shows more.
post #39 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

The OP addressed whether carving was possible on steep terrain.

not whether it was the best approach to skiing complicated terrain and restricted chutes and tree glades. other threads have addressed the best techniques for controlling direction and speed in those situations.

The simple answer is yes, but all other things being equal, the turns cannot be as small a radius as the slope increases.  Just imagine  forces and directions of said forces as slope increases to a vertical slope if you have trouble understanding this point.
post #40 of 56
probly' I get it. but do I have to imagine it past 50 degrees?

Our junior racers could take their GS skis up to the big chutes and carve down them with very minimal edge release, probably even cut railed tracks down the thing. would be cool to watch. (chalk, wind pack, or white ice)
post #41 of 56
Davl : My original and continuing intent was/is to understand the language based on the OP's question, and then through that figure out what is realistic.  This comes down to understanding what is really possible at "high skill levels", not necessarily at the level of the french guy( his name regrettably escapes me, Francois P or something like that perhaps) pioneer of most modern extreme skiing at Chamonix, or Bode or the venerable McConkey or DesLaurier brothers or Egan etc. Therefore I asked the questions, and a few of you answered. I actually thought the OP did not ask about the limits of human endeavor in relation to carving on skis, which would in a literal translation be "Can it be done?" but a more nuanced and reasoned question "Can it be done well ,consistently and often?" The answer to which it appears is no, beyond a certain point, a carve is really not feasible on a consistent basis.

On a more serious note, very interesting about your "junior racers", maybe they will win the Streif at Hahnenkahm one of these days, I have read often that it is reputedly the most demanding and ultimate test of mettle in the world of WC downhill races but at its max steep point, reportedly the incline tops out at 40.4degrees (these are not my measurements), so I would like to see these famous junior racers from Taos handle that and carve! I know some very good skiers and their view is the Streif is scary, really scary.

It is good to see your brand of pride in your junior racers, you make me seriously think that to really get better a kid should go for a camp and train at Taos, no question it has a fearsome reputation as a steep mountain.

EpicSki has a lot of threads on steeps, : This info below comes collected from these forums, i had gathered them once just to see what was true and what was hype...For some mysterious reason, Taos is missing from a lot of this but anyway - take a look, if you can add quasi-verifiable information on Taos, I certainly am interested, as would many others I imagine.

1. Bob Peters has said many a time that the most consistently steep mountain he has ever skied is Snowbird.
Now for some empirical evidence from many on epic ski >>
oshs:

It probably won't help much because most of the runs featured are not what you would call heavily traveled, but this book gives lots of stats on things in the Wasatch Range:

http://www.pawprince.com/chutglry/Home.html

It's a great resource, is very humorous, and Andrew lists slope degrees for all of his chutes.

One thing you're going to run into is that measurements on most in-resort ski runs tend to be made at the steepest point. Most of the time, that may be a length of only a few turns or less. Also, actual steepness often is *far* less impressive than most people tend to think.

I've used my inclinometer on a few spots around Jackson Hole, Snowbird, and Alta and can give you my own results:

Great Scott/Snowbird: 42 degrees for about three turns at the top.

Nirvana Shoulder/Snowbird: 49 degrees for about eight turns (this is the steepest "sustained" skiing I've run into at a resort)

High Rustler/Alta: 44 degrees for about six turns at the top.

Greeley Bowl/Alta: Average of about 35 degrees.

Main Baldy Chute/Alta: Average of about 38 degrees. A little over 40 at the top.

Rendezvous Bowl/Jackson Hole: Average of about 35 degrees.

Corbet's Couloir/Jackson Hole: (Not counting the entrance which is essentially vertical) 42 degrees for about four turns at the upper end.

First Alta Chute/Jackson Hole: 42 degrees for about six turns in the middle.

North Hoback/Jackson Hole: Average of about 36 degrees (which it maintains for close to 2500 vertical feet)

Good luck in your quest.

Bob

According to "How to Ski Mammoth" published in 1975, and long since out of print:

Cornice Bowl Max: 40 degrees Min: 30 (this was before it got blasted for winch-catting)

Scotty's Max: 40 Min: 35

Daves Max: 45 Min: 40

Climax: Max: 45 Min: 40

Wipeout 1 Max: 40 Min: 35

Wipeout 2 Max: 47 Min: 35

Dropout 1 Max: 40 Min: 35 (now called drop 2)

Dropout 2 Max: 44 Min: 35 (now called drop 3)

Note: the Wipes and drops were declawed back in the early 80's when Chair 23 went in

Paranoid 1,2&3 not 4 Max: 40 Min: 35

Phillipe's Max: 50 Min: 40

Huevos Grande Max: 52 Min: 45

Hangman's Max: 55 Min: 50

This book does not even mention stuff like "the Top of the World" or "Kiwi Flat aka Star Chute". Really, it all comes down to the snow. If you drop big of the lip on Dave's, it's a little different than skiing in around it. These numbers seem exaggerated, but Dana Couloir (Mt. Dana off Tioga Pass)is listed in most climbing guides at 40 dergees, and skis like a longer Dave's with a rollover entrance.

NYNY:

100% = 45 degrees was my understanding as well.

Whitney:

Great Scott is one of the most famous runs at Snowbird (Utah). You get off the tram, head north almost under the tram, pass the right turn leading to Chip's, pass the right gate leading to Silver Fox, turn left into the top of Regulator Johnson and then turn immediately right onto the ridge that leads into the Upper Cirque. Great Scott is the first major hole in the ridgeline that you come to. It drops off the ridge into the very upper Cirque. Trust me on this one.

For those of you looking for more stats on Jackson:

S&S is vertical (that would be 90 degrees for the mathmatically-impaired) for the first 18 to 30 feet. The drop depends on snow depth and how much you try to "cheat" by aiming left onto the adjoining cliff wall.

Tower 3 is steep (40 degrees-plus) for the first few turns up by the chairlift and then settles into about 40 down into Toilet Bowl.

Toilet Bowl is all over the map. The center and skier's right portions are probably high thirties, while there are several areas on skier's left that drop over rock ledges. Skier's left is definitely the "sportier" route down Toilet Bowl.

Expert Chutes are, for the most part, high thirties. There are portions at the rock band that crank up a bit, but the main shots between the rock outcroppings are high thirties.

That brings up an interesting point. There are very few sections of "skiable" runs at Jackson Hole that exceed about 42 degrees, and then only for very short distances. The angle of repose is just south of forty degrees for the scree slopes that make up much of the more expert terrain at Jackson. Thus, if you're not skiing a slab or boulder outcropping, you aren't going to be much steeper than low 40's.

The steepest sections I've measured at Jackson (other than obvious cliff areas) are Hanging Snowfield (between S&S Couloir and Tensleep Bowl), parts of Alta Zero (which is almost always closed), a small extension of the Expert Chutes near Lonnie's Chute, and a cool little shoulder of Dick's Ditch just above the base of the Thunder Chair. There are other little pieces like the cliff band into Bivouac and parts of the Cuervo Chutes that are also steep, but *none* of them (to my knowledge, anyway) even approach 50 degrees.

That may be somewhat disappointing to some first-time visitors here, but I'm fairly certain that a lot of the mountain *feels* pretty steep when you're standing at the top of various parts of it.

Bob

For anyone planning visits this winter (U. P. Racer...) I'd be happy to arrange a little tour.

heli:

Dave_SSS had a good answer regarding my post about some of the numbers at Alta/Snowbird. Those spots I listed are the angles at what I believe to be the steepest spots on some of the more famous runs. Almost every "steep" run that people talk about starts out with a high angle and gradually lessens as it fans out. That's why the High Rustler number comes out so low. By the time you get to the bottom of that run, the angle has dropped into (probably, I've never measured it) single digits.

I carry an inclinometer (Life-Link, $9.95) in my pack for two reasons - one is that regularly measuring *actual* angles helps me become better at estimating slopes when I'm backcountry skiing in avalanche terrain; the second is that, for me anyway, it's fun to know the actual steepness of various runs and be able to compare resorts. By the way, my inclinometer tells me that Snowbird has a little more consistently steep terrain (by only a few degrees but still steeper) than Jackson.

As for Andrew, I think I'd believe any number he puts out. I know him moderately well, and he's a stickler for getting things right. I suspect it's that design engineer mentality. And speaking of that, he just resigned Black Diamond and will be one of the Wasatch-Cache National Forest avalanche forecasters this winter. All you Utah skiers will now be able to get your morning snow report from Mr. Dawn Patrol himself.

And as for Coombs, I don't think he measures very many slopes but if anybody in the world can ski a REAL 60-degree slope, it's him.

Bob

peaking of steep runs, I can't resist re-posting this. It was written by Andrew McLean (author of The Chuting Gallery mentioned above) and was posted on the Telemark Tips forum about a year ago.

I still think it's the funniest thing I've ever seen about slope angles (perceived and actual). I've posted it here before but I just love it and it seems appropriate:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steep-speak International Translations:

France: Subtract 5 degrees & 1/3 of the stated vertical. ie: 1000 meters of 50 degrees = 660m of 45 degrees.

Alaska Heliskiing - Subtract 20 degrees and cut the vertical in half. FIVE THOUSAND FUGGIN' FEET OF 60 DEGREES (Dude!) = 2,500' of 40 degrees.

Montana & Washington - accept at stated values.

California - Subtract 10 degrees, nip the vert by 1/4 and double the width of any stated couloir.

Oregon - there is no steep skiing in Oregon.

The East Coast - Overstated stats, but the conditions justify it. Accept at stated value.

Colorado - Whatever Lou said it was.

Utah - I'll take the 5th on that.

Film/Movies - cut stated angles and length in half.

Hope that helps.

Andrew

Oh yeah - I forgot Wyoming. ADD 5 degrees and 200' to any stated value.

The info that follows came primarily from this thread on epicski.com :
http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=29735&highlight=steep
These steepness statistics were offered by a poster named Powdr, he gets any credit (or blame) due. I believe he is some kind of geographic info systems analyst and used Google Earth to derive the degree of steepness for what he perceived to be the steepest stretch with over a couple hundred yards length on well known ski trails around the country. The list started with Eastern trails, but then stats were added on a sampling of terrain from all around the country. Sorry, the runs are listed in somewhat random order. I've done a little editing in my compilation, hopefully not introducing errors. He tried to pick the steepest section he could find on each run, as long as it was over 500' in length, but I wouldn't call the process/stats definitive. They may make for fun discussion/speculation though. Note: these are in degrees, not percent.

Ovation at Killington (24 degrees, actually):
Paradise at MRG - 32.5 degrees
Tramline at Cannon - 28.1 degrees
White Nitro, Sugarloaf - 29.5 degree
Starr @ Stowe - 31.1 degrees
Castle Rock @ Sugarbush - 21.3 degrees
Whiteface Slides @ whiteface - 36.3 degrees
Denton Hill's (PA) triple diamond run - 27.7 degrees
Goat @ Stowe - 33.6 degrees
Robin's Run @ Smuggs - 29.8 degrees
Outer Limits @ Killington - 28.5 degrees
Devils Fiddle @ Killington - 25 degrees
Ripcord @ Mt. Snow - 27.4 degrees
Tuckerman's Ravine, NH (steepest I could find) - 45.3 degrees (damm!)
Dynamite @ Tremblant - 28 degrees
Black Hole @ Smuggs - 31.0 degrees
Ovation (lower section) @ Killington - 30.7 degrees
KT-22 East Chutes @ Squaw - 41 degrees
Huevos Grande @ Mammoth - 52.3 degrees (wicked steep)
51-50 @ PCMR - 47.9 degrees (and everyone says PCMR isn't steep)
Main Baldy Chute @ Alta - 44 degrees (but it's a dry steep)
Extrovert @ Blue Knob - 28.5 degrees
High Rustler @ Alta - 44.3 degrees
Great Scott @ Snowbird - 46.5 degrees
Upper Cirque @ Snowbird - 40.5 degrees
Peruvian @ Snowbird - 32.9 degrees
Under Powderhorn lift @ Solitude - 42.8 degrees
Under 9990 @ The Canyons - 29 degrees
Square Top @ The Canyons - 41.0 degrees
Upper Big Emma (Green Run!) @ Snowbird - 25.3 degrees!
Rumble @ Sugarbush - 27.9 degrees
Pitch Pine @ King Pine - 21.1 Degrees

Tuckerman Ravine Routes:
1 - 38.7 degrees
2 - 44.0 degrees
3 - 44.6 degrees
4 - 48.1 degrees
5 - 48.3 degrees
6 - 46.8 degrees
7 - 43.5 degrees
8 - 42.8 degrees
9 - 31.4 degrees
10- 30.3 degrees

Lower Wildcat @ Laurel Mountain (PA) - 28.1 degrees
Tower Three Chute @ JH - 43.1 degrees
Blowhole (Whistler/Blackcomb) - couldn't find it on the map
Rumor @ Gore - 28.9 degrees
Gunbarrel @ Heavenly, on the steepest pitch (a 136' section) is 31.6 degrees.
Palisades @ Squaw - 45.5 degrees (steepest section I could find - 205' long)

In honor of doggiedoc - A photo of Huevos Grande @ Mammoth Mountain, CA:
http://www.sierradescents.com/photos/2006/mammoth.php

s much a Telerod doesn't want me to do this (You can't handle the truth!), here are the results of some trails mentioned in this post. I will spare you the pictures and just give you the numbers. As a frame of reference, I picked the steepest section I could find on each run, as long as it was over 500' in length. Note: these are in degrees, not percent.

Starr @ Stowe - 31.1 degrees
Castle Rock @ Sugarbush - 21.3 degrees
Whiteface Slides @ whiteface - 36.3 degrees
Denton Hill's triple diamond run - 27.7 degrees
Goat @ Stowe - 33.6 degrees
Robin's Run @ Smuggs - 29.8 degrees
Outer Limits @ Killington - 28.5 degrees
Devils Fiddle @ Killington - 25 degrees
Ripcord @ Mt. Snow - 27.4 degrees
Tuckermans (steepest I could find) - 45.3 degrees (damm!)
Dynamite @ Tremblant - 28 degrees
Black Hole @ Smuggs - 31.0 degrees
Ovation (lower section) @ Killington - 30.7 degrees

Powdr

Funny you should ask. I was thinking the same thing myself:

KT-22 East Chutes @ Squaw - 41 degrees
Huevos Grande @ Mammoth - 52.3 degrees (wicked steep)
51-50 @ PCMR - 47.9 degrees (and eveyone says PCMR isn't steep)
Main Baldy Chute @ Alta - 44 degrees (but it's a dry steep)

That for starters. Taking requests.

Powdr

K, nothin' like wasting an afternoon @ work ::

Extrovert @ Blue Knob - 28.5 degrees
High Rustler @ Alta - 44.3 degrees
Great Scott @ Snowbird - 46.5 degrees
Upper Cirque @ Snowbird - 40.5 degrees
Peruvian @ Snowbird - 32.9 degrees
Under Powderhorn lift @ Solitude - 42.8 degrees
Under 9990 @ The Canyons - 29 degrees
Square Top @ The Canyons - 41.0 degrees
Upper Big Emma (Green Run!) @ Snowbird - 25.3 degrees!
Rumble @ Sugarbush - 27.9 degrees
Powdr
 
ome more requests:

Pitch Pine @ King Pine - 21.1 Degrees

Tuckerman Ravine Routes:
1 - 38.7 degrees
2 - 44.0 degrees
3 - 44.6 degrees
4 - 48.1 degrees
5 - 48.3 degrees
6 - 46.8 degrees
7 - 43.5 degrees
8 - 42.8 degrees
9 - 31.4 degrees
10- 30.3 degrees

Lower Wildcat @ Laurel Mountain - 28.1 degrees
Tower Three Chute @ JH - 43.1 degrees
Blowhole - couldn't find it on the map
Rumor @ Gore - 28.9 degrees
Gunbarrel, on the steepest pitch (a 136' section) is 31.6 degrees
Palisades @ Squaw - 45.5 degrees (steepest section I could find - 205' long)
Originally Posted by Patrick
STEEPS RUNS
(....)
I found this in an old Powder mag (Oct. 89).'The Raddest Runs in the East' by David Goodman (in search of the steepest run in the east). Great article.

Here are the stats from the article:

Name,(where), lenght, vertical drop, average width, Steepness (Steepest/avg in degree), snowmaking, groomed (numbers by ski areas)
Paradise (MRG), 1600ft, 750ft, 50ft, 45+/33, No, No
Goat (stowe), 3900ft, 1300ft, 45ft, 38/20, N, N
Starr (Stowe), 4600ft, 1650ft, 80ft, 38/20, N, N
National (Stowe), 5700ft, 1700ft, 135ft, 36/17, Y,Y
Liftline(Stowe), 5400ft, 2000ft, 115ft, 35/21, Y,Y
Outer Limits(K), 2853ft, 1215, 250, 31/21, Y,half
White Heat(Sunday R),3550, 1500, 200, 31/21, Y,half
Avalanche(cannon), 2600ft, 1000ft, 250, 25/20, Y,Y

STEEPS AND S SYSTEM

In Goodman's (Backcountry Skiing Maine/NH), there is a abbreviated version of the S System Ratings of slopes. For Mount Washington, it has:

S3: Slopes up to 35 degrees, equivalent to an expert run at a ski area(...) East Snowfields.

S4: Slopes between 35 and 45 degrees. Falling may be dangerous. Avalanche hazard of route must be evaluated. (...) Gulf of Slides, Oakes and Great Gulfs, in Tucks (Right Gully, Lobster Claw, Hillmans, Lower Snowfields and Little Headwall).

S5: Slopes between 45 and 55 degrees. Injury may result from falling. Multiple terrain obstacles present, including narrows, rocks and trees. Tucks (Lip, Left Gully, Chute, Center Headwall, Sluice, Dodge's Drop and Duchess).

I would judge the last two as much harder and actually scary. I love the comments he has for the S6 and S7.

The S system currently tops out with the following two grades. Routes of this severity exist in the Northeast, but are not included in this book. If you can ski or ride at this level, you know where to go.

S6 - Slopes continuously over 55 degrees.Extreme terrain. Rope work may be necessary. In all likelihood, "If you fall, you die."

S7 - Slopes over 60 degrees. Looks dead vertical to most people, and most people would look dead if they tried it. You need a pilot's license to get down".

Also note here is another historical thread, its on unweighting but I think this gets to the heart of the OP's question:
http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/8823/do-you-unweight-on-the-steeps

And if you are wondering why I am interested, because I am older so take a somewhat relatively calm and reasonably careful approach to learning skiing.

post #42 of 56
Another source : not mine, I think these are averages, they have to be though it says DV has a brutally steep slope
http://www.skistats.com/slopes_detail.asp?lowest=30

Here is the info on Taos:
http://www.skistats.com/slopes_detail.asp?state=NM

Its pretty comprehensive but have no idea who made these but these are averages from the looks of it.

FYI for any who are interested

The main page is here:
http://www.skistats.com/
post #43 of 56

Dusty, I'd like to help on Taos, but I'm up in Tahoe, Squaw, and speaking of jr. racers there.

post #44 of 56
My mistake, apologies. Squaw Valley does have the reputation for extreme slopes. Are there racing camps for kids on your mountain? My boy just turned 7. We live on the east coast though but I could consider planning something over the next year.
post #45 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecimmortal View Post

"Carving is the best feeling on ski's"


Oh....ok
 
+1
I'd have to say that fresh tracks in waist deep gives me the best feeling on skis.  Flying through the air second, then carving.
post #46 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by guroo270 View Post



+1
I'd have to say that fresh tracks in waist deep gives me the best feeling on skis.  Flying through the air second, then carving.

 

LOL...RIGHT?!?

I never wake up early so i can be the first to carve trenches in courdoroy.
post #47 of 56
...Unless you have a one ski quiver consisting of volkl tigersharks maybe....maybe?
post #48 of 56
Dooood there's nothing like trenching virgin courdoroy on the bunny hill.
post #49 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by guroo270 View Post

I'd have to say that fresh tracks in waist deep gives me the best feeling on skis. 

I call that carving on my bases..  Almost as fun as carving steeps, but all that snow keeps the speed down, which makes it somehow not as exciting for me.  Mind you, now that I'm getting older, I may start enjoying that more (if I ever get back to a place that actually has powder and steeps I'll do a comparison test).

Speaking of flying, I really like the "butterflys in the tummy" I get flying over rollers, but the powder skiing is more like flying; when catching air you don't have much control over your trajectory.  However that feeling is not unique to skiing.
post #50 of 56
BigK75 if you still around this post imvho

Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRISfromRI View Post

Another reason you may find it difficult to connect solidly with your edges (carve) while turning on steep terrain, could be that when you get to said steeper terrain you tend to rush the early phase of your turns while rushing to the last phase of your turns where you then modulate your skis on edge too quickly - causing your skis to chatter (skip) and skid. Try spending more time in the early phase of your turns, modulating your skis on edge more patiently, and striving for rounder shaped turns. Try to spend as much time getting to the fall line as you spend getting off the fall line.


comes the closest to addressing your question. I think it's called carving the top of the turn, which increases your edge angle gradually and allows you to control speed before you reach the fall line, be on your highest edge angle in the fall line and not have to do all your speed control in the bottom of the turn.
post #51 of 56
Jimmy,

Thanks, I'm glad someone else saw what I saw in the original post - though this thread was hi-jacked all over the place. My favorite diversion was actually the post about Tigersharks which I personally thought were about the most mediocre modern skis I have ever tried - well unless you're so old that you fart dust...   Chris
post #52 of 56
Practice makes perfect. Just slowly work your way up starting on easier slopes
post #53 of 56
Chris and Jimmy: This is a question, but I would humbly suggest (and I am an intermediate/beginner, and hard-worker at it) that skidding the "top" of the turn is the most efficient way to scrub speed at the "top" of the turn, laying it on edge early, above the fall line while great for GS skiing and remarkably graceful results in much higher velocities. On the other hand, I know having solid first-hand experience, that "rushing" the edging into and post the fall-line or simply being unable to figure out the right edge angle, matter of experience and touch I am certain, results in skidding, boot-out, or shudder/chatter.
post #54 of 56
dustyfog, It might be "easier" to learn to skid the top not sure if efficient is the right word, but you got the point, whatever you do in the top of the turn to control your speed leaves less speed to control at the bottom. Kind of silly to address OP at this point since it seems he's moved on but he was asking why he had trouble carving turns or skidding out at the bottom on steeper terrains. Might be his helmet was the wrong color  .
post #55 of 56
I think this thread contains some misunderstanding of carving philosophy. Nobody says you should carve every minute in every situation. But if you can carve well, you will be able to handle any terrain well and with grace.

It does wear out your legs faster, I think. No pain, just quad fatigue. Ironically, sometimes more advanced equipment and techniques are more tiring for your legs - for example, tightly fitted boots transfer more movement to your legs as the skis plow through snow, your legs have to compensate for that. The payoff is that if your quads can handle it, your body will have few other issues.

Master carving ... then smear all you want, nobody else cares, the point is having carving in your arsenal as something you're confidently able to use when you want.

For the original poster - you've gotten a lot of good advice - but to restate - you are most likely not keeping pressure on the downhill ski. There are other possibilities but that's the most probable cause.

""rushing" the edging into and post the fall-line or simply being unable to figure out the right edge angle, matter of experience and touch I am certain, results in skidding, boot-out, or shudder/chatter."

That could also be due to equipment if your skis aren't designed to handle the forces involved.
Edited by FB User (Private) - 3/16/10 at 10:56pm
post #56 of 56
Jimmy, I get it, hard to execute well though for the trepidation filled intermediate as things get steeper and dicier, and Keith, I posted a long set of questions which Ghost addressed point for point, we do not agree on everything but it was instructive, earlier above in this thread, arc-to-arc edge locked carving requires some serious power and strength, it wears you down!.
http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/92740/carving-on-steep-terrain/0#post_1202700
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